What can you tell me about this Civil War Token?? More pics added.

keets

Anything will be helpful since all I know is that it was labeled "Beehive CWT" when I bought it a few months ago, simply because I thought it looked nice. Who issued it, what's it's reference number, what's the scarcity with an "R" number and is there any guess as to the value?? Overall it's clean with reflective fields and tone settled in, especially on what I assume to be the reverse. Thanks in advance.

Al H.

goose3

fuld 188/384 (I think)
40.00 or so?
looks MS

R3 501-2000

goose3

there's a forum on there you can join solely for CWT's.

keets

thanks, Freak. it is MS and i paid $45. any other background info?? where in the heck is BillJones when i need him?

goose3

haven't seen him in a while.

join that forum and post.....


Mark Glazer will certainly help you further I'd imagine.

keets

this picture shows the color better but still hides the luster. it also shows a bit of high point rub due to the fact that the token is somewhat concave.

goose3

Looks extremely nice in your second photo keets.

DUIGUY

Probably not much help but the beehive and the word Industry are also found on the HK-358 & 359 ;

BillJones

I'm back. I've been at the Clearwater, FL coin show all weekend.

If the 188/384a atribtuion is correct, and I have no reason to doubt it. (I can't find my reference books at the moment) the piece lists in Kanzinger at $40.00 in Unc. It probably has a dealer selling price of $50 to $55 today for a mostly brown Unc like this one. The variety is common, but it's also very popular. $45 is a very fair price for this. A red one would probably bring over $100 today.

dizzyfoxx

<< <i>this picture shows the color better but still hides the luster. it also shows a bit of high point rub due to the fact that the token is somewhat concave.

>>



I don't know anything about it, but I do know that it's pretty

BOOK

Thanks Keets

There is nothing better then a learning thread.

Coins I have never seen before and then learn what they are.

BOOK

Conder101

The beehive is a common symbol of industriousness and the NOT ONE CENT was a measure taken to help make sure there would be no charges of counterfeiting. This is what is called a "Patriotic" token. They were issued anonymously. The whole idea was that you were not supposed to know who issued it. That way holders of the tokens could not return them to the issuer demanding redemption. This is in contrast to the "storecard" tokens that did have the meechants name and address on them. With the storecard the merchant might have to redeem his tokens but he counted on the increased business from the advertising of the tokens for his profits. With the patriotics the merchant made his profit on the difference between the cost of the tokens and their "face value". Patriotics using stock dies might be purchased from the manufacturers for about 60 cents per hundred resulting in a 40% profit margin. The CDH on the obverse is probably the die engravers initials. I would imagine there are lists of known engravers but I'm afraid I don't know them.

Atlantic

That is one nice token,,

Gemini

Die Sinker and engraver Charles D. Horter, operated at 178 Williams Street, New York City.

keets

great helpful information guys, and thanks for the nice comments.

i attended a show this morning and stumbled onto another nice one that i was unable to purchase, simply because the dealer wasn't certain how much to charge. we made arrangements to meet next month.

the new one is probably a solid XF and the attribution numbers were 125/294. it has an obverse left facing bust of Lincoln with the name Abraham Lincoln around the rim. the reverse has a wreath circling the rim and the word FREEDOM on two lines in the center. he had it noted as 1864 but i don't recall if that date was actually on the token. it was also marked as R-9 which didn't make sense to me but he seemed sure it was a rare piece that he'd had for some 25 years. this was an older gentleman, perhaps in his mid-70's, who was very casual. we talked for about 20 minutes about Exonumia.

can anyone give help on the identification and perhaps a value and rarity on this one?? thanks.

BillJones

Most of the Lincoln / Freedom tokens (a few varieties and they come in few different metals) falls in the mid range of rarity in the Lincoln CWT series. Traditionally prices for pieces in EF to low end Unc. start at $125 (in EF) and go to $275 (in R&B Unc.) depending upon the amount of red there is on a Mint State pieces. Flaming red pieces can bring far more, but not from me.

Some of these pieces can show some weakness on the reverse because the bust of Lincoln was in higher relief and sucked up a lot of the metal on a thin planchet. The collector has to make this assessment from what he sees. Generally a weak strike will lower the value if stronger struck pieces can be found. Some varieties are never well struck, and tokens struck in copper-nickel as often very poor strikes.

I'd take the R-9 rating with a grain of salt even if it says that in the Fuld guide. There are far more than 2 to 4 examples of these tokens. In general the Lincoln CWTs are overrated in the Fuld book when it comes to rarity, but their popularity overcomes that when it comes to pricing them. After a lot of looking as a collector-dealer I did finally finished a set of all the obverse Lincoln CWTs, and built another set for a collector who gave me a want list. It would be a bigger challenge to do that today. Because of mulings there are many Lincoln CWT obverse - reverse combinations. Many of these pieces were made for 19th century collectors.

These pieces (the Freedom piece) are dated 1864, and they did circulate and were used as campaign pieces during the 1864 presidential campaign. More were undoubtedly struck after Lincoln's assassination, but there is no way to tell when a token might have been struck.

keets

thanks for the help Bill.

Shamika

<< <i> thanks, Freak. >>

BillJones

Here's a photo of the 125/294a Lincoln CWT that is in my colleciton.

keets

yeah, Bill, that's the one i saw today except that it was hard brown and had some rub, primarily on the portrait of Lincoln. the dealer that had it made mention of the fact that some law was passed in 1863 which made these illegal, do you know if that's true??

BillJones

Yes two laws were actually passed in the first part of 1864. It made it illegal for CWTs to be used in circulation. Since there is no month noted on the dates of most 1864 CWTs,* all 1864 dated pieces qualify as CWTs among collectors even though the tokens were probably illegal to circulate. Tokens dated 1865 can't be called CWTs because of that law.

The biggest year by far for the CWTs was 1863. More were made and circulated that year than any other date in the series (1861 - 4). For whatever reason the Wealth of the South series, which was dated and first issued in 1860 is also a part of the series. For all others the officail dates are 1861-4.

These Lincoln pieces are seldom seen in lower than EF by honest wear. The reason is they really did not circulate very much if at all. Of courae there are lower grade ones from spots and damage, but you don't see badly worn ones very often.

* Actually there is one CWT that has a month on it. The Phildelphia Sanitary Fair tokens are dated June, 1864. For the issue the U.S. mint pulled a press out and put it on the floor of the fair. For 10 cent you could buy a bonze piece, and for 50 cents you could buy one in silver. There were also a very limited number of gilt pieces issued. There are several sub die varieties of this, but most collectors are happy with just one example. Or if you are a nut like me you have one in bronze, silver and gilt.