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Check Out How Many Of rareland's Auctions "twhrbr" Bid On (Just Last 30 Days) - No Wins/Fe
RBinTex
Posts: 4,328 ✭
So besides being a copyright infringing, keyword spamming, image thief, Lloyd is also a shill bidding criminal.
I submit that he (i.e. twhrbr) is a rareland shill (OR AT LEAST 1 OF THEM)! Has private feedback & only bids on rarelands' stuff, never gets/gives feedback or wins anything! BIDS (takes a minute or so to show up).
Seller: rareland Item: 8436869500
Title: 1881 Half $ NGC MS66PL Pop 2 PCGS 0 NONE 67PL thru 70
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Current Bidders on this item Other auctions from rareland that this user has bid on
glendowner3pmi 8431206757(*), 8431694257(*),
irebam 8420958651(*), 8427069085(*), 8428085299(*), 8428417250(*),
poststar1 8434331250(*),
jimmabigboy 8431206757(*),
twhrbr 8406602290(*), 8420958651(*), 8421003126(*), 8421474216(*), 8421479896(*), 8422040287(*), 8422060501(*), 8422621471(*), 8423566000(*), 8423576859(*), 8423907243(*), 8424847115(*), 8427014518(*), 8427057220(*), 8427069085(*), 8427994609(*), 8428069351(*), 8428085299(*), 8428097553(*), 8428407748(*), 8428417250(*), 8428431442(*), 8429272450(*), 8430121763(*), 8430132335(*), 8430486576(*), 8431046322(*), 8431169706(*), 8431206757(*), 8431694257(*), 8431726466(*), 8433239585(*), 8433833033(*), 8433852244(*), 8434331250(*), 8435019911(*), 8435465699(*), 8435709078, 8435733153,
theshire04 8422040287(*), 8422060501(*), 8430486576(*), 8431707460(*),
jgk9 (None)
kevinlawrencetc (None)
numisfila (None)
oldnavy1936 (None)
eBay LINK To Report Shill Bidding (Login Required).
I submit that he (i.e. twhrbr) is a rareland shill (OR AT LEAST 1 OF THEM)! Has private feedback & only bids on rarelands' stuff, never gets/gives feedback or wins anything! BIDS (takes a minute or so to show up).
Seller: rareland Item: 8436869500
Title: 1881 Half $ NGC MS66PL Pop 2 PCGS 0 NONE 67PL thru 70
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Current Bidders on this item Other auctions from rareland that this user has bid on
glendowner3pmi 8431206757(*), 8431694257(*),
irebam 8420958651(*), 8427069085(*), 8428085299(*), 8428417250(*),
poststar1 8434331250(*),
jimmabigboy 8431206757(*),
twhrbr 8406602290(*), 8420958651(*), 8421003126(*), 8421474216(*), 8421479896(*), 8422040287(*), 8422060501(*), 8422621471(*), 8423566000(*), 8423576859(*), 8423907243(*), 8424847115(*), 8427014518(*), 8427057220(*), 8427069085(*), 8427994609(*), 8428069351(*), 8428085299(*), 8428097553(*), 8428407748(*), 8428417250(*), 8428431442(*), 8429272450(*), 8430121763(*), 8430132335(*), 8430486576(*), 8431046322(*), 8431169706(*), 8431206757(*), 8431694257(*), 8431726466(*), 8433239585(*), 8433833033(*), 8433852244(*), 8434331250(*), 8435019911(*), 8435465699(*), 8435709078, 8435733153,
theshire04 8422040287(*), 8422060501(*), 8430486576(*), 8431707460(*),
jgk9 (None)
kevinlawrencetc (None)
numisfila (None)
oldnavy1936 (None)
eBay LINK To Report Shill Bidding (Login Required).
0
Comments
Shill? You decide
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
<< <i>you have too much time on your hands >>
That and an agenda.....
<< <i>
<< <i>you have too much time on your hands >>
That and an agenda..... >>
The/that agenda perhaps being to report what appears to be shill bidding? I have suspected the same of that seller for a long time. I have also noticed that he continues to get away with keyword spamming, despite having been reported to Ebay on numerous occasions.
<< <i>I have also noticed that he continues to get away with keyword spamming, despite having been reported to Ebay on numerous occasions. >>
Yep, he's one of the worst offenders.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>I submit that he (i.e. twhrbr) is a rareland shill (OR AT LEAST 1 OF THEM)! Has private feedback & only bids on rarelands' stuff, never gets/gives feedback or wins anything! BIDS (takes a minute or so to show up). >>
Safe assumption that you have reported this to ebay?
<< <i>if he just took better pics his coins would sell nicely. >>
He actually doesn't do his own images. He uses other people's images. If you look at his auctions you'll notice that there's no consistency to the pictures.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>
<< <i>I submit that he (i.e. twhrbr) is a rareland shill (OR AT LEAST 1 OF THEM)! Has private feedback & only bids on rarelands' stuff, never gets/gives feedback or wins anything! BIDS (takes a minute or so to show up). >>
Safe assumption that you have reported this to ebay? >>
The thing is, you'll probably have a tough time reporting the shill bidding for a private auction.
From a PM of another concerned eBayer/Board Member:
"I am writing this to alert you to probable shill bidding on ”RARELAND” coins. I’m an avid coin collector and an Ebayer for over six years who has reported other shill bidding on coins with resulting positive action from Ebay. Up until today I could not filter out the shills on private auctions but due to reading a thread on the PCGS coin message board, I found there is a website in England called Goofbay that gives us the tools to research that information. You will find that Ebay id “ TWHRBR “ has consistently bid on only rareland’s private auctions and that it was only when a jump in price was needed to bolster the auctions. It seems odd that for someone who has been a member for over two years and has made over 40 bids in the last month alone that twhrbr doesn’t have a single feedback attributed to him. He won an auction last month on item # 8422040287 but has not received feedback from rareland though rareland has freely given feedback to others since then. His coins are not cheap. We are talking $100,000.00 in the last forty auctions. Hopefully you will see fit to take a close look at this seller and his accommodating bidder."
the shill bidding for a private auction."
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
On eBay's screen, the auctions are not "private."
All you need is a cut/paste from output at goofbay.com, and
eBay will "look into it."
storm
Item: 8435465699
Title: 1 EXISTS! Hawaii $1 PMG 68 EPQ Pop 1 PCGS 1 None 69- 70
This item is being watched by 23 eBay user(s)
User ID Bid Amount Bid Time
twhrbr £1,211.27 2006-06-24 00:08:58
jjb007 £1,208.53 2006-06-20 07:54:46
reddibal £1,183.81 2006-06-19 17:05:45
dr-y £439.46 2006-06-19 05:28:56
jimz_007 £249.95 2006-06-17 19:22:53
patco47 £219.18 2006-06-17 12:50:01
caberne £164.80 2006-06-17 03:24:49
paulbrunton1 £109.87 2006-06-17 02:35:21
mickey7171z £30.21 2006-06-17 02:39:00
skipwen2 £12.63 2006-06-17 01:45:40
mrdanno422 £5.49 2006-06-17 00:55:18
roadrunner
You couldn't be more wrong. It's only because of the copyright infringment (& the way Lloyd chose to deal with THAT issue) that rareland even came onto my radar & only because of the recent post about goofbay that I had a tool to really see what a shill-bidding scum he is.
Causation? No. Impetus? Yes. I can't help what put me on the path to the reasonable progression of events that led to investigating this bozo's activities.
Which of rareland's actions are you choosing to defend?
<< <i>"The thing is, you'll probably have a tough time reporting
the shill bidding for a private auction."
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
On eBay's screen, the auctions are not "private."
All you need is a cut/paste from output at goofbay.com, and
eBay will "look into it."
storm >>
True, but my point is do you think Ebay is going to listen to a shilling complaint for a private auction? And they likely will not consider the Goofbay info, because you are not supposed to have that info to begin with.
I am sure Ebay is trying to find ways to encrpyt Ebay to disable Goofbay capabilities.
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Very good point.
It would be just like scambay to complain that consumers were
doing something wrong in efforts to do the job that the company
should be doing itself.
somewhere?
As long as we are not talking about theft of code or other trade secrets from eBay,
in other words, just good reverse coding or scripting, sites like Goofbay will thrive.
If eBay was smart, they would buy them out - and, maybe that is the whole purpose
of the drill to begin with.
Until then, I expect to see many more consumer alerts here, and elsewhere. The crooks
will get no sympathy from me, anyway.
John
SFC, US Army (Ret.) 1974-1994
<< <i>you have too much time on your hands >>
While I can relate to your feeling, as though busy bodies are not cleaning their own house, I will tell you as a fellow member of the forum that I take a serious issue with "CHEATING"
I learned what shill meant and didn't understand it at first. It isn't fair to jack up a bid using your friends, relatives, etc....(reserve price it if you don't wanna lose it)
It isn't fair to use PCGS in your ad if your coin is not slabbed in a PCGS holder. (it is cheating on the search engine... Look up Mama in Google and see if you get a picture of your mother
It isn't fair to do many things, like talk about people without giving them the opportunity to defend their actions.
With that said, I felt it only fair to write this seller the following letter:
Dear ebay member...
There is a discussion on the PCGS forum about using shill bidding tactics, keyword spamming, and underhanded practices with regards to your selling on ebay. Inspite of this fact, I felt it only fair that you should be aware of these matters. You may handle them as you wish, but the following link either exposes you for a fraud, or you ought to come explain your actions. These are a fair bunch of fellow collectors and dealers. I invite you to join. You have some expensive coins and it would benefit you, not us , if you would shed light on what others are saying. I personally could care less. But if you are like me and care about your own reputation.... Please take a minute and read by posting this link into your browser : http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=515378
Kindly,
Joe
~with what measure you measure, you will be measured~
<< <i>you have too much time on your hands >>
very true,
who cares, its not our business!!!
<< <i>
<< <i>you have too much time on your hands >>
While I can relate to your feeling, as though busy bodies are not cleaning their own house, I will tell you as a fellow member of the forum that I take a serious issue with "CHEATING"
I learned what shill meant and didn't understand it at first. It isn't fair to jack up a bid using your friends, relatives, etc....(reserve price it if you don't wanna lose it)
It isn't fair to use PCGS in your ad if your coin is not slabbed in a PCGS holder. (it is cheating on the search engine... Look up Mama in Google and see if you get a picture of your mother
It isn't fair to do many things, like talk about people without giving them the opportunity to defend their actions.
With that said, I felt it only fair to write this seller the following letter:
Dear ebay member...
There is a discussion on the PCGS forum about using shill bidding tactics, keyword spamming, and underhanded practices with regards to your selling on ebay. Inspite of this fact, I felt it only fair that you should be aware of these matters. You may handle them as you wish, but the following link either exposes you for a fraud, or you ought to come explain your actions. These are a fair bunch of fellow collectors and dealers. I invite you to join. You have some expensive coins and it would benefit you, not us , if you would shed light on what others are saying. I personally could care less. But if you are like me and care about your own reputation.... Please take a minute and read by posting this link into your browser : http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=515378
Kindly,
Joe
~with what measure you measure, you will be measured~ >>
I think that your message to Rareland is very reasonable. Although the participants postings are like a fart in the wilderness compared to the sheer volume of sellers in this hobby, it is not a bad thing that the notice of these practices is shared with the subjects. It may be too late for Rareland to avoid a NARU. though - the shilling in this case is pretty darned obvious.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
the shilling in this case is pretty darned obvious."
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////
I do not know. Sometimes, there are explanations for things
like this. It would be good to hear such explanations.
The real story here is that FOR YEARS eBay has had ALL of the kinds of
"details" that goofbay provides. Who has benefited the most from
private auctions? The outfit that collects the final value fees.
While I am pretty sure that most "private auctions" are legit, eBay
may be too risky a venue in which to allow the practice. During the next
few weeks, I suspect that eBay will be forced to decide if the potential
risks visited upon "the community" by private auctions are worth the millions
of dollars in fees they generate for the company.
Anyone planning to use goofbay to do "research," should do it quickly. Info
is power, and eBay cannot benefit from allowing goofbay to "over-empower"
consumers. If records of "past private auctions" are not on eBay's servers, it will
be impossible for goofbay to deliver the goods. Better hurry with the research.
storm
<< <i>
<< <i>you have too much time on your hands >>
very true,
who cares, its not our business!!! >>
What is not our business?
John
SFC, US Army (Ret.) 1974-1994
has some nice stuff. it should sell itself.
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Everytime someone lies/cheats/steals inside of
the "collecting community," new collectors/investors
are disuaded from spending money inside that
community.
eBay can survive the collapse of numerous categories within
the "collecting community," but there are many people who
want and need all the categories to survive and prosper.
Corruption that hurts the "collectors universe," hurts every
collector/dealer, and that makes any wrongdoing within the
"eBay community" the VERY REAL "business" of every collector
and every dealer.
The largest "auction venue" on the planet needs to wake up
and stop forcing consumers to police its business. If that "venue"
was doing its job - and minding its business - threads like this one
would not be here.
storm
<< <i>.........."who cares, its not our business!!! "
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Everytime someone lies/cheats/steals inside of
the "collecting community," new collectors/investors
are disuaded from spending money inside that
community.
eBay can survive the collapse of numerous categories within
the "collecting community," but there are many people who
want and need all the categories to survive and prosper.
Corruption that hurts the "collectors universe," hurts every
collector/dealer, and that makes any wrongdoing within the
"eBay community" the VERY REAL "business" of every collector
and every dealer.
The largest "auction venue" on the planet needs to wake up
and stop forcing consumers to police its business. If that "venue"
was doing its job - and minding its business - threads like this one
would not be here.
storm >>
Well, said storm.
Personalities aside (it doesn't really matter to the thread), it is everyone's
business to acquire information like this, and, also, spread the news about
the tools available to facilitate such searches. A better informed buying
public can only be achieved by educating them.
The only people who benefit from hiding misbehavior, or misdeeds, are those
engaged in questionable activity themselves.
With the tools that are now available, it is going to be very hard to shill and
get away with it for long, for example.
I see no downside to the equation, and no, I am not passing judgment on anyone
in particular. The tools enable everyone to research the people they place bids with.
John
SFC, US Army (Ret.) 1974-1994
<< <i>The only people who benefit from hiding misbehavior, or misdeeds, are those
engaged in questionable activity themselves. >>
And, as storm mentioned, the outfit, (eBay), that collects the final value fees.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>This one was a win for twhrbr.
Item: 8435465699
Title: 1 EXISTS! Hawaii $1 PMG 68 EPQ Pop 1 PCGS 1 None 69- 70
This item is being watched by 23 eBay user(s)
User ID Bid Amount Bid Time
twhrbr £1,211.27 2006-06-24 00:08:58
jjb007 £1,208.53 2006-06-20 07:54:46
reddibal £1,183.81 2006-06-19 17:05:45
dr-y £439.46 2006-06-19 05:28:56
jimz_007 £249.95 2006-06-17 19:22:53
patco47 £219.18 2006-06-17 12:50:01
caberne £164.80 2006-06-17 03:24:49
paulbrunton1 £109.87 2006-06-17 02:35:21
mickey7171z £30.21 2006-06-17 02:39:00
skipwen2 £12.63 2006-06-17 01:45:40
mrdanno422 £5.49 2006-06-17 00:55:18 >>
One has to wonder why this successful win did not generate a positive feedback to the buyer
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
an
expensive coin for selling for under market. And eBay is one of the few exceptions in the auction world that does not allow consignors to bid on their own items. Since this can always be done by an "agent" or a "book" bid, buyers should always assume that they are bidding against the seller.
<< <i>In the real auction world, dealers will often place "courtesy" bids on each other's auctons to avoid
an
expensive coin for selling for under market. >>
Which is shill bidding, plain and simple.
<< <i>In the real auction world, dealers will often place "courtesy" bids on each other's auctons to avoid
... >>
Euphemism for shill bidding.
Frank, what's your eBay SELLER ID?
Another rareland "ERROR"
<< <i><STRONG>"buyers should always assume that they are bidding against the seller"</STRONG>
Frank, what's your eBay <STRONG>SELLER</STRONG> ID?
Another rareland "<a class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=11950&item=260000334313" target=blank><STRONG>ERROR</STRONG></A>" >>
You must realize, in a most general way, that all auction buyers are "bidding against the seller" since
the seller controls the minimum bid, the reserve, buyback bids, ending an auction early, etc.
If you accept this as a "fact of life" and just bid what YOU are willing to pay, you will have greatly
simplified your life.
My ebay ID is FRANKCOINS
Since I start everything at a penny, I often call other dealers and tell them to take a look at my auctions
when items are goiing "stupid cheap." They will usually bid their regular wholesale buying price, since
they know that my items are high-end for the grade. These ARE legitimate bids. It's NOT a violation
of ebay policy.
But watch the people cry "SHILL BIDDING" who didn't get a $500 coin for a penny!
<< <i>What exactly is "keyword spamming?" Thanks in advance. >>
Generally someone advertising an Accugrade coin with "Not PCGS Not NGC" so that people
searching for PCGS will find it.
Some here have objected to sellers describing a particular ANACS coin as "just as nice" as
a typical PCGS coin of the same grade as "keyword spamming"
certain search engines with which they have a written agreement, such access will be considered "unauthorized"
and subject to federal prosecution. I don't see how they could obtain this information from ebay legally.
//////////////////////////////////////
EXACTLY !
It wastes my "valuable" time, and everytime I get
hooked, I write the seller off, forever.
storm
<< <i>I see ... thanks! It doesn't seem to fit "spamming" though, if you had to describe it negatively. It seems more like "misleading." >>
It's an old mind game trick..use derogatory or complementary terms to advance your agenda.
Like opposition = treason, or invasion=liberation.
"I don't see how they could obtain this information from ebay legally."
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Actually, we could obtain it "legally," if scambay gave a darn about
protecting customers who use their "venue." The scamsters and shills
have a strong and protective partner in that "venue."
The "venue" watches the same screens live, that goofbay shows us
AFTER we have already been cheated. If the "venue" wanted to "save
us," they could do it in an instant; it would cost them millions in lost
revenues, so "no help for us."
Sadly, goofbay will soon be "history." More sadly, scambay will go on
forever.
storm
<< <i>Since I start everything at a penny, I often call other dealers and tell them to take a look at my auctions
when items are goiing "stupid cheap." They will usually bid their regular wholesale buying price, since
they know that my items are high-end for the grade. These ARE legitimate bids. It's NOT a violation
of ebay policy. >>
What do you call it then? "Creative reserve avoidance"?
feedback being central to its definition of "trust and safety." Giving some people the option of hiding
this information makes the playing field unlevel and definitely gives the advantage to the shady.
Of course, eBay has more important things to do in the war on fraud. A friend who attended the ebay bash
in Vegas said they are thinking about prohibiting ANY "employee" of an ebay seller from bidding on an item...not
just "employees" of coin dealers, antique shops and ebay dropoff stores. But the employee of a ditch-digger might
bid on something his employer dug up, not because he wanted it, but to gain favor for a promotion, and that
would be unfair. How will they keep track of all these associations? Can a sergeant in the army bid on a
captain's item? What about someone who is not an employee but wants to be hired? I won your daughter but
lost my ebay account because I bid on your stuff, Sir, to impress you with my taste.
The mind reels!
<< <i>
<< <i>Since I start everything at a penny, I often call other dealers and tell them to take a look at my auctions
when items are goiing "stupid cheap." They will usually bid their regular wholesale buying price, since
they know that my items are high-end for the grade. These ARE legitimate bids. It's NOT a violation
of ebay policy. >>
What do you call it then? "Creative reserve avoidance"? >>
Directing someone to a bargain is not unethical.
the seller controls the minimum bid, the reserve, buyback bids, ending an auction early, etc."
So, when I bid on eBay I'm "bidding against the seller" (i.e. YOU)?
Are you one of those sellers, Frank, that ends an auction early 'cause you don't feel it's bid up high enough?
"...they are thinking about prohibiting ANY "employee" of an ebay seller from bidding on an item..."
I guess PCGS doens't share that philosophy for ITS' employees.
p.s. Frank, exactly WHOSE retail prices are you quoting in all your titles?
Family Members; Rommates: Employees.
Other "prohibited-examples" lingo in the policy:
"Bob is a high-volume seller on eBay, who wants to be sure that he never sells at a loss.
Rather than use eBay’s “Reserve Price” feature to set his minimum sale prices, Bob has
an associate place bids on his auctions... in effect, setting a "hidden’ reserve price."
(I love how eBay is most worried about "protecting" their reserve fees.)
Depending on the meaning of the word "associate," anyone the seller "knows and asks to bid"
would likely create a violation.
Honest sellers do not need shills. They just price their items at the amount they are
willing to accept, and hope to get more in a "real auction." Starting at 1-cent with a
shill in the wings is "a blatant violation." The 1-cent dodges the listing fee, and the
shill dodges the reserve fee.
eBay's policies go on to talk about shill bidding being a "criminal offense" in some
jurisdictions.
storm