<< <i><STRONG>"You must realize, in a most general way, that all auction buyers are "bidding against the seller" since the seller controls the minimum bid, the reserve, buyback bids, ending an auction early, etc." </STRONG> So, when I bid on eBay I'm "bidding against the seller" (i.e. YOU)? Isn't that the definition of shilling? >>
I said in a GENERAL WAY, you always have to compete with the seller, since he decides what he wants for the coin, or even if he sells it at all at any price
<< <i>Are you one of those sellers, Frank, that ends an auction early 'cause you don't feel it's bid up high enough? >>
Never done it.
<< <i><STRONG>"...they are thinking about prohibiting ANY "employee" of an ebay seller from bidding on an item..."</STRONG>
I guess PCGS doens't share that philosophy for ITS' employees. >>
Not following you
<< <i>p.s. Frank, exactly WHOSE retail prices are you quoting in all your titles? >>
Mine
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
<< <i>Regarding Goofbay: Ebay has made it clear that "data miners" are unwelcome on its site, and that with the execptions of certain search engines with which they have a written agreement, such access will be considered "unauthorized" and subject to federal prosecution. I don't see how they could obtain this information from ebay legally. >>
Just an observation, but it appears as though you are very concerned about goofbay and their alleged violation ebay policy, yet turn a blind eye to sellers and the use of shilling tactics, clearly a violation of ebay policy. Seems somewhat hypocritical.
<< <i>Regarding Goofbay: Ebay has made it clear that "data miners" are unwelcome on its site, and that with the execptions of certain search engines with which they have a written agreement, such access will be considered "unauthorized" and subject to federal prosecution. I don't see how they could obtain this information from ebay legally. >>
Just an observation, but it appears as though you are very concerned about goofbay and their alleged violation ebay policy, yet turn a blind eye to sellers and the use of shilling tactics, clearly a violation of ebay policy. Seems somewhat hypocritical. >>
Jim - Goofbay is apparently history. See the other thread from today.
<< <i> Just an observation, but it appears as though you are very concerned about goofbay and their alleged violation ebay policy, yet turn a blind eye to sellers and the use of shilling tactics, clearly a violation of ebay policy. Seems somewhat hypocritical. >>
I think you have it backwards. Goofbay is clearly violating ebay policy (and the law), whereas the subject of this post is being accused of being a crook based on circumstantial evidence that is not even supposed to be available to the accuser.
We were badly hurt a few years ago when someone ran a program called esafe2bid on us which revealed that we had numerous repeat customers, and several people who regularly put bids on all of our auctions. The "shill police" reported us to ebay, and we, and several of our best customers, were suspended until we faxed ebay "drivers license, phone bill and water or electric bill." One guy was NEVER able to get back on ebay because he lived in a bills paid apartment and had only a cell phone in his company's name.
Since that time, some of our multiple winners have asked that we NOT exchange feedback, because they fear a another attack on their ebay accounts by "busybodies" who see something suspicious if people buy and bid from someone they know and trust.
So I see nothing conclusive in RBinTex's accusations that could not have some logical explanation, having been accused of similar things in a similar manner when we were in no way violating ebay policy.
As far as bid "shilling" as ebay calls it, (usually known as buyback bids or protective bids in the auction business, and almost universally allowed) is NOT a crime, only a violation of ebay's policies.
On the other hand, unauthorized access to a computer, as Goofbay appeared to be doing, and has stopped, is a FELONY. My concern was also for the people using goofbay's services. If they could hack into ebay's servers, would it not seem logical that they could also violate the personal computers (which are generally much less secure) of the people visiting their site?
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
<< <i>twhrbr has bid on about 34 auctions of Rareland worth over $65,000.00 in total, and has won zero. He has no other auction involvement.
Shill? You decide >>
As an auctioneer who has worked live, mail bid, bid board, and internet auctions, (and as anyone who works at Heritage or Stacks will tell you) some people put in thousands of lowball bids, hoping to make a killing, and never winning anything. One fellow snailmailed us every week bidding a dollar on everything for a couple of years. Finally I sent the guy something we had a duplicate of (I think a 40% silver proof brown box Ike) for his bid of $1. He wrote back with about a 3 page letter telling me his life story and how he was so glad he finally won a coin auction. Turned out he was about 80 years old.
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
<< <i> I felt it only fair to write this seller the following letter:
Dear ebay member...
There is a discussion on the PCGS forum about using shill bidding tactics, keyword spamming, and underhanded practices with regards to your selling on ebay. Inspite of this fact, I felt it only fair that you should be aware of these matters. You may handle them as you wish, but the following link either exposes you for a fraud, or you ought to come explain your actions. >>
I think if you MUST report this, report it to eBay and let them deal with it. A lot of people would be pretty angry getting a letter from a stranger accusing them of fraud.
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
>>>On the other hand, unauthorized access to a computer, as Goofbay appeared to be doing, and has stopped, is a FELONY.<<<
Maybe I am missing something, but I fail to see anything conclusive that goofbay is engaged in any unauthorized access to ebays system, only an assumption of such. Just a guess, but I think they were tapping the ebay API, which is members only for a fee, not unauthorized as you suggest.
The Application Programming Interface (API) is the heart of the Developers Program.
Normally, users buy and sell items using the eBay online interface, interacting with eBay directly. But with the eBay API, you communicate directly with the eBay database in XML format. By using the API, your application can provide a custom interface, functionality and specialized operations not otherwise afforded by the eBay interface.
Using the API, you can create programs that:
Submit items for listing on eBay Get the current list of eBay categories View information about items listed on eBay Get high bidder information for items you are selling Retrieve lists of items a particular user is currently selling through eBay Retrieve lists of items a particular user has bid on Display eBay listings on other sites Leave feedback about other users at the conclusion of a commerce transaction
Because the API is not dependent on the eBay user interface, it allows you to create stable, custom functionality and interfaces that best meet your business needs.
For instance, you can:
Automate the process of listing and monitoring auctions. There is no need to parse eBay pages that change frequently, breaking applications. A seller has access to more tools they can use to sell better and faster. Extract user information from eBay and automate the end auction management process and delivery to eBay sellers and buyers.
After joining the Developers Program, you will have access to the Developer Zone, a password-protected Web site for members only. The Developer Zone is the primary source for technical documentation and specifications, DTD files that define the XML input and output for the API, tools for creating and certifying your application and a full suite of additional technical resources.
<< <i>>>>On the other hand, unauthorized access to a computer, as Goofbay appeared to be doing, and has stopped, is a FELONY.<<<
Maybe I am missing something, but I fail to see anything conclusive that goofbay is engaged in any unauthorized access to ebays system, only an assumption of such. Just a guess, but I think they were tapping the ebay API, which is members only for a fee, not unauthorized as you suggest.
<< <i>>>>On the other hand, unauthorized access to a computer, as Goofbay appeared to be doing, and has stopped, is a FELONY.<<<
Maybe I am missing something, but I fail to see anything conclusive that goofbay is engaged in any unauthorized access to ebays system >>
You're not missing anything. As usual, Frank's talking out his ass. Goofbay was granted access by eBay. It was only after eBay realized that too much of the slime was being exposed did they decide to cut off that access.
<< <i> You're not missing anything. As usual, Frank's talking out his ass. Goofbay was granted access by eBay. It was only after eBay realized that too much of the slime was being exposed did they decide to cut off that access.
Russ, NCNE >>
Only Goofbay claims they were "granted access by ebay." And if they actually were, it would certainly be a violation of any such license to reveal access to information that ebay doesn't want made available to the public.
I don't appreciate your insults.
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
Back to the subject of "rareland", I recall when they first came on Ebay, it looked liked they were getting skinned of their first few auctions because they were new. Now, in retrospect, it's likely those first few auctions were won by shill bidders.
<< <i>Goofbay no doubt had gained authorized access to the API. Do you think for a minute that access is not secured? >>
Of course they did, and of course it is. Which is why this statement:
<< <i>On the other hand, unauthorized access to a computer, as Goofbay appeared to be doing, and has stopped, is a FELONY >>
Is a perfect example of somebody talking out their ass.
Russ, NCNE >>
We know NOTHING of who operates Goofbay, or what's in it for them. For all anyone knows, they could be getting the information on private auctions and feedback because their "toolbar" steals the passwords of the sellers and/or bidders, and aggregates the data.
You can have SOME level of access to a computer system, but if you access (or even attempt to do access) information you are not entitled to, it's a crime.
Should Goofbay be allowed to access your name, address and credit card on file just because they have API access, then make that information available to the public?
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
<< <i>We know NOTHING of who operates Goofbay, or what's in it for them. For all anyone knows, they could be getting the information on private auctions and feedback because their "toolbar" steals the passwords of the sellers and/or bidders, and aggregates the data.
You can have SOME level of access to a computer system, but if you access (or even attempt to do access) information you are not entitled to, it's a crime.
Should Goofbay be allowed to access your name, address and credit card on file just because they have API access, then make that information available to the public? >>
Please post one shred of credible data that supports your “theory” that goofbay has access to "your name, address and credit card on file" and is making that information public.
<< <i> Please post one shred of credible data that supports your “theory” that goofbay has access to "your name, address and credit card on file" and is making that information public. >>
I never said that.
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
>>Should Goofbay be allowed to access your name, address and credit card on file just because they have API access, then make that information available to the public?<<
Sure sounds like you did to me. At the very least, an implication.
Again, a request: Please post one shred of credible data that supports your “theory” that goofbay has access to "your name, address and credit card on file" and is making that information public.
<< <i>>>Should Goofbay be allowed to access your name, address and credit card on file just because they have API access, then make that information available to the public?<<
Sure sounds like you did to me. At the very least, an implication.
Again, a request: Please post one shred of credible data that supports your “theory” that goofbay has access to "your name, address and credit card on file" and is making that information public. >>
I never made that claim.
Some people have claimed that any information Goofbay is clever enough to write a script to retrieve off the eBay site is fair game to publish.
'I asked if that would include names, addresses and credit card numbers.
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
the thing with Goofbay is that anyone who has access to the API can do the exact same thing (although they would probably suffer the same fate) all they have to do is use the data and access given to them with their paid membership to the information and then write the tools to allow others to use their membership to gain access to the information as well. So in no way is it illegal because the people that run Goofbay paid to have access to that information they didnt hack into any computer to get it
Comments
<< <i><STRONG>"You must realize, in a most general way, that all auction buyers are "bidding against the seller" since
the seller controls the minimum bid, the reserve, buyback bids, ending an auction early, etc."
</STRONG>
So, when I bid on eBay I'm "bidding against the seller" (i.e. YOU)?
I said in a GENERAL WAY, you always have to compete with the seller, since he decides what he wants for the coin,
or even if he sells it at all at any price
<< <i>Are you one of those sellers, Frank, that ends an auction early 'cause you don't feel it's bid up high enough?
Never done it.
<< <i><STRONG>"...they are thinking about prohibiting ANY "employee" of an ebay seller from bidding on an item..."</STRONG>
I guess PCGS doens't share that philosophy for ITS' employees. >>
Not following you
<< <i>p.s. Frank, exactly WHOSE retail prices are you quoting in all your titles?
Mine
<< <i>Regarding Goofbay: Ebay has made it clear that "data miners" are unwelcome on its site, and that with the execptions of
certain search engines with which they have a written agreement, such access will be considered "unauthorized"
and subject to federal prosecution. I don't see how they could obtain this information from ebay legally. >>
Just an observation, but it appears as though you are very concerned about goofbay and their alleged violation ebay policy, yet turn a blind eye to sellers and the use of shilling tactics, clearly a violation of ebay policy. Seems somewhat hypocritical.
<< <i>
<< <i>Regarding Goofbay: Ebay has made it clear that "data miners" are unwelcome on its site, and that with the execptions of
certain search engines with which they have a written agreement, such access will be considered "unauthorized"
and subject to federal prosecution. I don't see how they could obtain this information from ebay legally. >>
Just an observation, but it appears as though you are very concerned about goofbay and their alleged violation ebay policy, yet turn a blind eye to sellers and the use of shilling tactics, clearly a violation of ebay policy. Seems somewhat hypocritical. >>
Jim - Goofbay is apparently history. See the other thread from today.
Link
John
SFC, US Army (Ret.) 1974-1994
<< <i>Jim - Goofbay is apparently history. See the other thread from today.
John >>
I saw the news...
Score a win for the shillers.
Someone will put up a new site soon enough! I'd bet on it.
<< <i>
<< <i>Jim - Goofbay is apparently history. See the other thread from today.
John >>
I saw the news...
Score a win for the shillers.
Someone will put up a new site soon enough! I'd bet on it. >>
I would bet on that too - it is a safe bet...
John
SFC, US Army (Ret.) 1974-1994
<< <i>
Just an observation, but it appears as though you are very concerned about goofbay and their alleged violation ebay policy, yet turn a blind eye to sellers and the use of shilling tactics, clearly a violation of ebay policy. Seems somewhat hypocritical. >>
I think you have it backwards. Goofbay is clearly violating ebay policy (and the law), whereas the subject of this post
is being accused of being a crook based on circumstantial evidence that is not even supposed to be available to the accuser.
We were badly hurt a few years ago when someone ran a program called esafe2bid on us which revealed that
we had numerous repeat customers, and several people who regularly put bids on all of our auctions. The "shill
police" reported us to ebay, and we, and several of our best customers, were suspended until we faxed ebay
"drivers license, phone bill and water or electric bill." One guy was NEVER able to get back on ebay because he
lived in a bills paid apartment and had only a cell phone in his company's name.
Since that time, some of our multiple winners have asked that we NOT exchange feedback, because they fear
a another attack on their ebay accounts by "busybodies" who see something suspicious if people buy and bid from
someone they know and trust.
So I see nothing conclusive in RBinTex's accusations that could not have some logical explanation, having been
accused of similar things in a similar manner when we were in no way violating ebay policy.
As far as bid "shilling" as ebay calls it, (usually known as buyback bids or protective
bids in the auction business, and almost universally allowed) is NOT a crime, only a violation of ebay's policies.
On the other hand, unauthorized access to a computer, as Goofbay appeared to be doing, and has stopped, is a FELONY.
My concern was also for the people using goofbay's services. If they could hack into ebay's servers, would it not seem
logical that they could also violate the personal computers (which are generally much less secure) of the people
visiting their site?
<< <i>twhrbr has bid on about 34 auctions of Rareland worth over $65,000.00 in total, and has won zero. He has no other auction involvement.
Shill? You decide
As an auctioneer who has worked live, mail bid, bid board, and internet auctions, (and as anyone who works
at Heritage or Stacks will tell you) some people put in thousands of lowball bids, hoping to make a killing, and never winning
anything. One fellow snailmailed us every week bidding a dollar on everything for a couple of years. Finally I sent the
guy something we had a duplicate of (I think a 40% silver proof brown box Ike) for his bid of $1. He wrote back with
about a 3 page letter telling me his life story and how he was so glad he finally won a coin auction. Turned out he
was about 80 years old.
<< <i>
I felt it only fair to write this seller the following letter:
Dear ebay member...
There is a discussion on the PCGS forum about using shill bidding tactics, keyword spamming, and underhanded practices with regards to your selling on ebay. Inspite of this fact, I felt it only fair that you should be aware of these matters. You may handle them as you wish, but the following link either exposes you for a fraud, or you ought to come explain your actions. >>
I think if you MUST report this, report it to eBay and let them deal with it. A lot of people would be
pretty angry getting a letter from a stranger accusing them of fraud.
Maybe I am missing something, but I fail to see anything conclusive that goofbay is engaged in any unauthorized access to ebays system, only an assumption of such. Just a guess, but I think they were tapping the ebay API, which is members only for a fee, not unauthorized as you suggest.
http://developer.ebay.com/common/api
Normally, users buy and sell items using the eBay online interface, interacting with eBay directly. But with the eBay API, you communicate directly with the eBay database in XML format. By using the API, your application can provide a custom interface, functionality and specialized operations not otherwise afforded by the eBay interface.
Using the API, you can create programs that:
Submit items for listing on eBay
Get the current list of eBay categories
View information about items listed on eBay
Get high bidder information for items you are selling
Retrieve lists of items a particular user is currently selling through eBay
Retrieve lists of items a particular user has bid on
Display eBay listings on other sites
Leave feedback about other users at the conclusion of a commerce transaction
Because the API is not dependent on the eBay user interface, it allows you to create stable, custom functionality and interfaces that best meet your business needs.
For instance, you can:
Automate the process of listing and monitoring auctions. There is no need to parse eBay pages that change frequently, breaking applications. A seller has access to more tools they can use to sell better and faster.
Extract user information from eBay and automate the end auction management process and delivery to eBay sellers and buyers.
After joining the Developers Program, you will have access to the Developer Zone, a password-protected Web site for members only. The Developer Zone is the primary source for technical documentation and specifications, DTD files that define the XML input and output for the API, tools for creating and certifying your application and a full suite of additional technical resources.
<< <i>>>>On the other hand, unauthorized access to a computer, as Goofbay appeared to be doing, and has stopped, is a FELONY.<<<
Maybe I am missing something, but I fail to see anything conclusive that goofbay is engaged in any unauthorized access to ebays system, only an assumption of such. Just a guess, but I think they were tapping the ebay API, which is members only for a fee, not unauthorized as you suggest.
http://developer.ebay.com/common/api >>
Of course they aren't, and weren't.
This is just an essential element of Frank's disinformation campaign...
John
SFC, US Army (Ret.) 1974-1994
<< <i>>>>On the other hand, unauthorized access to a computer, as Goofbay appeared to be doing, and has stopped, is a FELONY.<<<
Maybe I am missing something, but I fail to see anything conclusive that goofbay is engaged in any unauthorized access to ebays system >>
You're not missing anything. As usual, Frank's talking out his ass. Goofbay was granted access by eBay. It was only after eBay realized that too much of the slime was being exposed did they decide to cut off that access.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>
You're not missing anything. As usual, Frank's talking out his ass. Goofbay was granted access by eBay. It was only after eBay realized that too much of the slime was being exposed did they decide to cut off that access.
Russ, NCNE >>
Only Goofbay claims they were "granted access by ebay." And if they actually were, it would certainly be a violation
of any such license to reveal access to information that ebay doesn't want made available to the public.
I don't appreciate your insults.
<< <i>I don't appreciate your insults. >>
There's an easy way to fix that. Stop talking out your ass.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>
<< <i>I don't appreciate your insults. >>
There's an easy way to fix that. Stop talking out your ass.
Russ, NCNE >>
Asstalker. Heh.
Asstalking. Insults. Asstalking. Insults... Where does it all end?
Goofbay no doubt had gained authorized access to the API. Do you think for a minute that access is not secured?
But Fleabay can revoke it at will.
Probably easier for Fleabay to revoke it than to NARU smoeone.
Fleabay plays by their own rules. I thought Goofbay was a good idea - the free flow of info is almost always a good idea.
Fleabay apparently disagrees. They win (for now).
The subject of the original post is still highly suspect in my opinion, for the reasons already stated.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
<< <i>Goofbay no doubt had gained authorized access to the API. Do you think for a minute that access is not secured? >>
Of course they did, and of course it is. Which is why this statement:
<< <i>On the other hand, unauthorized access to a computer, as Goofbay appeared to be doing, and has stopped, is a FELONY >>
Is a perfect example of somebody talking out their ass.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>
<< <i>Goofbay no doubt had gained authorized access to the API. Do you think for a minute that access is not secured? >>
Of course they did, and of course it is. Which is why this statement:
<< <i>On the other hand, unauthorized access to a computer, as Goofbay appeared to be doing, and has stopped, is a FELONY >>
Is a perfect example of somebody talking out their ass.
Russ, NCNE >>
We know NOTHING of who operates Goofbay, or what's in it for them. For all anyone knows, they could be getting the
information on private auctions and feedback because their "toolbar" steals the passwords of the sellers and/or bidders, and
aggregates the data.
You can have SOME level of access to a computer system, but if you access (or even attempt to do access) information you are not entitled to, it's a crime.
Should Goofbay be allowed to access your name, address and credit card on file just because they have API access, then
make that information available to the public?
<< <i>We know NOTHING of who operates Goofbay, or what's in it for them. For all anyone knows, they could be getting the information on private auctions and feedback because their "toolbar" steals the passwords of the sellers and/or bidders, and aggregates the data.
You can have SOME level of access to a computer system, but if you access (or even attempt to do access) information you are not entitled to, it's a crime.
Should Goofbay be allowed to access your name, address and credit card on file just because they have API access, then
make that information available to the public? >>
Please post one shred of credible data that supports your “theory” that goofbay has access to "your name, address and credit card on file" and is making that information public.
<< <i>
Please post one shred of credible data that supports your “theory” that goofbay has access to "your name, address and credit card on file" and is making that information public. >>
I never said that.
Sure sounds like you did to me.
At the very least, an implication.
Again, a request:
Please post one shred of credible data that supports your “theory” that goofbay has access to "your name, address and credit card on file" and is making that information public.
<< <i>>>Should Goofbay be allowed to access your name, address and credit card on file just because they have API access, then make that information available to the public?<<
Sure sounds like you did to me.
At the very least, an implication.
Again, a request:
Please post one shred of credible data that supports your “theory” that goofbay has access to "your name, address and credit card on file" and is making that information public. >>
I never made that claim.
Some people have claimed that any information Goofbay is clever enough to write a script to retrieve off the
eBay site is fair game to publish.
'I asked if that would include names, addresses and credit card numbers.
click