A frequently occurring, very tough judgment call that graders must make - how would YOU handle this

coinguy1 · June 3, 2006 4:39AM

You as a grader are examining a coin and it looks like a nice MS64 example. BUT, you have a question as to whether the toning is natural or not. Realistically, you have no way of knowing - there's a 50/50 chance that the toning is original.

An MS64 example of the coin in question is worth $3000 and an MS63 is worth $1800.

Do you:

1) Take a stand and grade the coin MS64?
2) Play it safe and grade the coin MS63 in case it's not original?
3) No-grade the coin due to "questionable toning"?

The above dilemma is one which graders face far more frequently than many people realize and they are essentially in a no-win situation. How should they handle it?

larrynj · June 3, 2006 4:41AM

no doubt, # 3 wins.

CarlWohlforth · June 3, 2006 4:43AM

I'd take a photo and post a thread on these forums to get more opinions.

Barndog · June 3, 2006 4:46AM

No way I could put it in a holder for which my employer would be financially liable if I am not sure the toning is NT. #3 is the prudent choice if I wish to do the right thing for my employer and the hobby. Opinions from better graders at my company would be welcomed first, of course.

Fairlaneman · June 3, 2006 4:49AM

TPG's should have a "Re-Look Day" set aside for the graders if this really happens often. Set the coin aside, after emailing the customer, and then take the coin out a few days later to re-examine it to see if your opinion has wavered any. If there is still doubt about the color then bag the baby.

This atleast gives the customer two shots at getting the coin certified for his/her money instead of a few second body bag.

Ken

Artist · June 3, 2006 4:51AM

#1. I'd probably get as many 2nd opinions as possible, but if they all came to the same conclusion then I would have to deem the toning as either NT or market acceptable. I don't believe in net-grading unless it is noted on the holder.

LeeG · June 3, 2006 4:52AM

If any question in my mind on originality of a coin I would have to "No-Grade" the coin. The other graders who look at the coin would also state their opinions. If they differ, we would discuss, then reach consensus.

Barry · June 3, 2006 4:52AM

You said "you have a question as to whether the toning is natural or not."

So wouldn't it have to be 3) No-grade the coin due to "questionable toning"?

clw54 · June 3, 2006 4:54AM

3) Bodybag it. If people start getting more of these back in bodybags, maybe they'll stop mucking with coins. I know, wishful thinking.

michael · June 3, 2006 5:00AM

no grade

if it is not a no brainer NT coin it gets bagged

coinguy1 · June 3, 2006 5:02AM

Please keep in mind that if the grading services chose option #3 every time they had a question about the originality of toning, the number of body-bags and complaints from submitters would soar.

291fifth · June 3, 2006 5:03AM

If in doubt, #3.

MacCrimmon · June 3, 2006 5:07AM

Easy solution......if it's really 64 for surfaces, then crack it, strip it, and send it to the number #1 coin doctor who will put a 'natural looking' electric rainbow tone on the coin. You can then get it slabbed as an MS65* and dump it into an auction where the bidders will go "ga-ga" and it will hammer for $20,000.

jdimmick · June 3, 2006 5:09AM

If its questionable, and thats the consensus of the two-three graders that supposed to view it, then BB for questiobale color is the only appropriate choice.

jim

Russ · June 3, 2006 5:10AM

<< 2) Play it safe and grade the coin MS63 in case it's not original? >>

That's what the grading services, both NGC and PCGS, frequently do.

Russ, NCNE

librtyhead · June 3, 2006 5:12AM

I would "flip-a-coin"............heads MS63.........tails MS64...........If it lands on the ground BB it............Sometimes I think this is what happens.

TomB · June 3, 2006 5:13AM

The one option I would not pick is number two.

AU58WALKERS · June 3, 2006 5:13AM

#3

ModernDollarNut · June 3, 2006 5:14AM

<< Please keep in mind that if the grading services chose option #3 every time they had a question about the originality of toning, the number of body-bags and complaints from submitters would soar. >>

It would and indeed it has! This thread would be tougher if the index coin had a 10% chance of being AT......

Clearly a toned coin these days is BB'ed unless it screams "I'm NT!" (excluding third world TPGs, of course). Rob

TwoSides2aCoin · June 3, 2006 5:17AM

Bodybag....

The price (worth) of the coin in it's holder ought not be a determining factor in grading it, whatsoever. That statement shows bias. But the toning should kill all coins. It is a chemical reaction and foreign to the natural state of the coin.

Kick me in the shins, crucify me, stone me...............but I am still right !

My rules are simple !

roadrunner · June 3, 2006 5:20AM

body bag it for questionable toning. - maybe even refund the fee.

By slabbing this as 63, you then invite the poor blokesollow who purchase this slabbed 63 who think it's PQ. They pay PQ money and it comes back BB for them upon a resubmisson. They lose big time after the service slabbed it as ok. That scenario has happened to me a few times.

roadrunner

ABC123 · June 3, 2006 5:34AM

You can't be wrong, if you never make a decision=#3

ER · June 3, 2006 5:40AM

<< The one option I would not pick is number two. >>

DHeath · June 3, 2006 6:00AM

If your informed opinion is that there is a 50% chance the toning isn't original, bag it. Your first loyalty is to the integrity of the holder. The submitter you piss off will still submit to you because your holder is valued by the market as a result of your willingness to make the tough decisions. JMO

dizzyfoxx · June 3, 2006 6:03AM

Whether the label on the slab says 63 or 64, if the toning is questionable at only a 50-50 chance either way, I feel the coin should be BB'd. If it's a situation where the grader is very confident that the toning is natural, with only a slight shred of possibility that perhaps it may not be, then other opinions withing the grading company should be sought, and the consensus prevail. If the consensus is NT, then slab it at its' technicaly perceived grade, in this case MS64.

PerryHall · June 3, 2006 6:04AM

<< If in doubt, #3. >>

Boom · June 3, 2006 6:07AM

<< The above dilemma is one which graders face far more frequently than many people realize and they are essentially in a no-win situation. How should they handle it? >>

They're professional graders. They OUGHT to be able to detect altered surfaces from NT. Several prominent set are chocked FULL of painted up, high grade coins however, I've seen very nice NT COIN'S GET BBd. THAT'S NOT RIGHT.

Point is, if this is your profession you OUGHT to be able to tell the difference.

mozin · June 3, 2006 6:20AM

Boom said,

<< They're professional graders. They OUGHT to be able to detect altered surfaces from NT. Several prominent set are chocked FULL of painted up, high grade coins however, I've seen very nice NT COIN'S GET BBd. THAT'S NOT RIGHT.

Point is, if this is your profession you OUGHT to be able to tell the difference.

>>

slumlord98 · June 3, 2006 6:28AM

To summarize some excellent points:

1. Integrity of the product is paramount and must be maintained.
2. Value of a 3 v. a 4 is irrelevant.
3. 50/50 chance makes the call too easy- bag it.

There is waaaay too much product of a questionable nature in the market that has been blessed by both services, and a lot of this needs to be taken off the market, with a subsequent toughening of standards. JMHO...

stiffy · June 3, 2006 6:29AM

First, we stop the guy making the hypotheticals, he is to blame.

#2

Because I went number one earlier.

BillJones · June 3, 2006 6:36AM

If I sent the coin in, it would get a "no grade."

Recently I sent this 1873 quarter in to NGC, and it got a BB for "environmental damage" which is load of crap IMO. The coin only has original toning with little wear. It should have gotten an AU-50.

tradedollarnut · June 3, 2006 6:37AM

Depends - which day of the week is it?

JRocco · June 3, 2006 6:44AM

<< 

<< The above dilemma is one which graders face far more frequently than many people realize and they are essentially in a no-win situation. How should they handle it? >>

They're professional graders. They OUGHT to be able to detect altered surfaces from NT. Several prominent set are chocked FULL of painted up, high grade coins however, I've seen very nice NT COIN'S GET BBd. THAT'S NOT RIGHT.

Point is, if this is your profession you OUGHT to be able to tell the difference.

>>

I also agree 100% with Boom.

I am a Pharmacist and I can't get 50% of my scripts wrong---not even 25% or 10% or 5% or even a stinking 1%---that would be one mistake (that could be really bad) out of every 100 scripts.
These graders get paid how much ?? Lets stop kissing their collective fat a$$'s and start demanding better---or do I go back in the doghouse for even saying such a radical thing like asking for a good job to be done for their salaries ??????????

braddick · June 3, 2006 6:47AM

50/50% = Questionable.

Bag the coin.

cladking · June 3, 2006 6:53AM

Personnally I think the TPG's should ignore toning altogether and let the buyer
beware. If there's actually something on the coin then bodybag it but otherwise
look under the toning and try to figure out what the grade is. They should be in
the business of grading coins, not toning.

BAJJERFAN · June 3, 2006 7:10AM

Call it what it is; option 4 ms64 with questionable toning!! If all that is wrong with it is a funny color it may not be a reason to BB it. You know if they have a grading set to help decide between a 64 and a 65 maybe they shud have toner standards too.

relayer · June 3, 2006 7:12AM

I would look to see who the submitter was. If it was me, I'd BB it, otherwise it would go into a 64 holder

BillJones · June 3, 2006 7:13AM

Having made a large number of submissions to NGC I've come to the conclusion that they have a Body Bag quota, and meet it by BB at least one coin in every submission even if it does not deserve it.

Gemineye · June 3, 2006 7:13AM

I could see this topic coming around again.The subject of toning gets quite heated.
Here is a solution......you might not like it but .....it separerates it from the purists.....

If one submits a coin to the graders as a ..Toner..it is given a grade ( whatever # it is ) and labeled ....Toned....
the grading co. assumes NO RESPONIBILITY as as authenticity of toning.

If it is not toned the grading is done normally....................FINIS......................................

BAJJERFAN · June 3, 2006 7:17AM

Unless its blatantly obvious toning why not just pretend it isn't there.

LincolnsRule · June 3, 2006 7:19AM

I bet they put it in the ms63 holder so they'll think it was just undergraded and resubmit it.

Bear · June 3, 2006 7:21AM

From a bussiness sense, I would go with a down grade to MS-63.

This would cause the submitter to try again for a 64, would limit the TPG

liability and there is always the chance the coin is NT. Thus a win/win for all.

stman · June 3, 2006 7:24AM

Interesting, seems the masses want all questionable toned coins bagged. Of course that is until it's THEIR coins that get bagged if they are 50/50.

So here is the deal, all questionable coins get bagged...... unless it is "respected" forum members that are doing the submitting. Heh
JRocco says.......

<< These graders get paid how much ?? Lets stop kissing their collective fat a$$'s and start demanding better---or do I go back in the doghouse for even saying such a radical thing like asking for a good job to be done for their salaries ?????????? >>

Hey man, that's not "happy" talk. Back to the doghouse for you!!!

Myqqy · June 3, 2006 7:32AM

I think option #2 is what grading companies like, because it's best for them.... but it's not best for numismatics... in this scenario, you have to go with #3 if the toning is 50/50.....

DHeath · June 3, 2006 7:33AM

I've seen bunches of coins in threads here that I wouldn't buy regardless of the holder, and I'm sure most of you have too, but I think part of the TPG's responsibility is to insure the coins in their holders are market acceptable. They do lots of teaching indirectly, and I think those that rely on their educated opinion should get one. JMO

BillJones · June 3, 2006 7:38AM

<< I think option #2 is what grading companies like, because it's best for them.... but it's not best for numismatics... in this scenario, you have to go with #3 if the toning is 50/50..... >>

I think that was true of NGC years ago. Now it sometimes looks like they have gone too far the other way, at least from the BBs I've seen.

coinguy1 · June 3, 2006 10:50AM

To those of you who think that option #3 is the only one that should be considered seriously........

How confident/certain (in terms of %'s) do you think that graders should be about the originality of the toning in order for them to grade, rather than no-grade a coin? 100%? 90%? 75%? 50.1%?

cladking · June 3, 2006 10:55AM

<< To those of you who think that option #3 is the only one that should be considered seriously........

How confident/certain (in terms of %'s) do you think that graders should be about the originality of the toning in order for them to grade, rather than no-grade a coin? 100%? 90%? 75%? 50.1%?

>>

Herein lies the problem: You can rarely be 100% sure a coin is AT and never 100% sure it's NT unless you know its history.

BAJJERFAN · June 3, 2006 11:01AM

If a grader can't pin down AT with a fair [more than 50%] measure of certainty in this case then I think it behooves him to give the coin a 64.

TwoSides2aCoin · June 3, 2006 11:08AM

I am soooooooo confident that every TONED coin is UNNATURALLY TONED, that I'd body bag all of them...

No, I take that back. I'd send them to ANACS for slabbing. That is just me, Mark.
I would never dip one via NCS. They have character and they are quite marketable, but they can be that way without the shroud of mystery and cloud of darkness that surround so many of them.
Hey, I've seen PVC coated coins that are MS68 and they would never have achieved that look or maintained that finish had it not been for PVC filling in all the pores of the planchet , giving it that beautiful satin look and keeping the coin a blast white the whole while. But , damage is damage... PVC, SULPHUR, TEMPERATURE, ENVIRONMENT. BODYBAG

How did I learn it best ? When in doubt, don't do it !

A few guys said to look beyond the toning for the grade, but in a way, that is like saying she looks great ....
.... with make up on !

jabba · June 3, 2006 11:12AM

<< If a grader can't pin down AT with a fair [more than 50%] measure of certainty in this case then I think it behooves him to give the coin a 64. >>

A frequently occurring, very tough judgment call that graders must make - how would YOU handle this

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