Who owes a greater ethical duty to be fair/honest with a clueless seller, a co-worker or a "pro
coinguy1
Posts: 13,484 ✭✭✭
This question came up in a recent thread (see here, edited to fix link):here
In that thread it was not clear whether or not the co-workers were also “friends” or whether the seller and the dealer had an established relationship. So, I will ask a few different questions:
1) Which party has a greater ethical duty to be fair and honest with a clueless owner of rare coins, a co-worker who is NOT also a friend, or a professional dealer who does NOT have an established relationship with the seller?
2) Which party has a greater ethical duty to be fair and honest with a clueless owner of rare coins, a co-worker who IS also a friend, or a professional dealer who does NOT have an established relationship with the seller?
3) Which party has a greater ethical duty to be fair and honest with a clueless owner of rare coins, a co-worker who IS also a friend, or a professional dealer who HAS an established relationship with the seller?
4) Which party has a greater ethical duty to be fair and honest with a clueless owner of rare coins, a co-worker who is NOT also a friend, or a professional dealer who HAS an established relationship with the seller?
BONUS QUESTION:
5) Does anyone ask more annoying questions than coinguy1?
In that thread it was not clear whether or not the co-workers were also “friends” or whether the seller and the dealer had an established relationship. So, I will ask a few different questions:
1) Which party has a greater ethical duty to be fair and honest with a clueless owner of rare coins, a co-worker who is NOT also a friend, or a professional dealer who does NOT have an established relationship with the seller?
2) Which party has a greater ethical duty to be fair and honest with a clueless owner of rare coins, a co-worker who IS also a friend, or a professional dealer who does NOT have an established relationship with the seller?
3) Which party has a greater ethical duty to be fair and honest with a clueless owner of rare coins, a co-worker who IS also a friend, or a professional dealer who HAS an established relationship with the seller?
4) Which party has a greater ethical duty to be fair and honest with a clueless owner of rare coins, a co-worker who is NOT also a friend, or a professional dealer who HAS an established relationship with the seller?
BONUS QUESTION:
5) Does anyone ask more annoying questions than coinguy1?
0
Comments
2) Co-worker
3) Dealer-->quasi-fiduciary duty
4) Dealer
5) No way in h377
Specializing in 1854 and 1855 large FE patterns
<
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"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Bonus question answer: YES
OK - what's the prize? Something like Russ' Fugio Cent would be nice . . . .
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<< <i>They BOTH have an ethical duty to be fair to the clueless seller. End of story!!! >>
Everyone has an ethical duty to be fair and honest....
A dealer has additional responsibilities sometimes described in law and/ore in other by covenants of professional organizations. Are they always adhered to? Well..........
A friend who is not fair and honest is hardly a friend............
Co-workers fall into the everybody category.
You are never annoying , but since you know the answers to these questions, it is time to return to the BBQ.
"Live long and prosper"
My "How I Started" columns
<< <i>Why would the ethical duty be different? Ethical standards should be practiced by everyone regardless of position. Especially when one is dealing with the clueless. >>
Right!
Agree 100%
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
Specializing in 1854 and 1855 large FE patterns
<
BigJohn, if you re-read your original post and observe it while in an out of body experience, you might see what everyone else is commenting on. It reads as if you fully intended to take this guy to the cleaners, but because of time constraints, you let the fish stay on the hook while you took care of other issues. When you returned, the fish had been gaffed by another. It does not paint you in a nice light. Since you typed it, and it was your choice of words, you have to think the flames would be warrented on the information described.
There are many stories and experiences reported here on the boards. We know there are dealers and so called friends who will gladly take those coins off the hands of someone who is in a bind, a widow, a soon to be divorced buddy, etc. I love hearing about found treasure, but i hate hearing out it was ripped from someone who probably needed advice at a key point in life.
I like coins, I collect coins, but i will not sell my soul to get coins.
<< <i> it seems most of these responses are a bit Polyana-ish and politically correct. >>
This probably sounds dumb but what does that mean?
"Live long and prosper"
My "How I Started" columns
<< <i>Although I agree an ethical duty is not relative, and it is always owed, it seems most of these responses are a bit Polyana-ish and politically correct. >>
Well if you are a slimeball then the ethical duty is not relative. If you have any moral standards at all the the ethical duty is both relative and your duty. The reponders that you are calling polyanish and political correct just may have moral standards that can uphold thier response. I happen to agree with the polyanish responders.
BTW: I think you do also Rick, agree with the polyanish responders, but just wanted to add some heat to the thread.
Ken
<<This probably sounds dumb but what does that mean?>>
Samuel, if you want or need more than the definitions below, please let me know.
Pol·ly·an·na
n.
A person regarded as being foolishly or blindly optimistic.
politically correct
adj. (Abbr. PC)
Of, relating to, or supporting broad social, political, and educational change, especially to redress historical injustices in matters such as race, class, gender, and sexual orientation.
Being or perceived as being overconcerned with such change, often to the exclusion of other matters.
their actions. if you have rare coins and sell them for pennies
on the dollar, whose fault is it?
the buyer? hardly. lets place the blame for a foolish transaction
with the seller.
edited to add: knowledge is power. how much will you leverage
that in your transactions? ethical == 10% profit while 90% is
pure evil?
<< <i>my co-worker has supposedly been collecting for 30+ years. In no way would I consider him a novice. He was sitting there with a redbook. He's in a pretty bad spot right now (going through a divorce) and he needs cash bad. I did pick up 8 coins from him at a very fair price. Maybe even overpaid. However, when he quoted me the price I told him that they were worth more than that and offered to throw them on ebay for him at 10% of the final price. I did not get the coins and did my best to tell the guy that the coins were worth more. I was getting on a flight in 2 hours and didn't have time to hold the guys hand. The guy wanted cash fast. >>
I sensed that in that first thread. Time played a big factor on both parts to make this thread turn a little for the worse. He had a red book and 30 years. You didn't have time to lay out any big deal(big money=big deal) or verify there real, so a small deal was struck with options. There co-workers, there going to see each other many more times.
It's the dealer that makes me sick.(Should answer the question posted)
I have been in the same boat and it has always left a bad taste, but what can you do. Just play fair and honest and let the chips fall. I quit putting values on collections when asked because if they were selling, and there was a piece I liked. No matter what I offered it is still viewed unethical in the eyes of the unknowing, and they prefer to put their trust in a dealer. (In four out of five times I lost a great coin and the seller make half of what I would of paid. Coincidently the time it did work out was for a set with a 3$ piece).
<< <i>Ethics is (are) not like hats, one size fits all ! >>
agreed.
The above questions are similar (in my mind) to asking; who has a greater ethical duty to not rape this particular woman: her coworker, or her doctor? While rape by the doctor may be more egregious (depending on many factors), rape is rape. Theft is theft. Granted, you can get into the philosophy of degree, and perhaps rape is one of those things in which there are no 'degree's, in terms of it's severity and potential to damage, but we're not talking about 'white lies' here, we're talking about theft.
1) Which party has a greater ethical duty to be fair and honest with a clueless owner of rare coins, a co-worker who is NOT also a friend, or a professional dealer who does NOT have an established relationship with the seller?
BOTH EQUALLY HAVE AN ETHICAL DUTY TO BE FAIR AND HONEST
2) Which party has a greater ethical duty to be fair and honest with a clueless owner of rare coins, a co-worker who IS also a friend, or a professional dealer who does NOT have an established relationship with the seller?
BOTH EQUALLY HAVE AN ETHICAL DUTY TO BE FAIR AND HONEST
3) Which party has a greater ethical duty to be fair and honest with a clueless owner of rare coins, a co-worker who IS also a friend, or a professional dealer who HAS an established relationship with the seller?
BOTH EQUALLY HAVE AN ETHICAL DUTY TO BE FAIR AND HONEST
4) Which party has a greater ethical duty to be fair and honest with a clueless owner of rare coins, a co-worker who is NOT also a friend, or a professional dealer who HAS an established relationship with the seller?
BOTH EQUALLY HAVE AN ETHICAL DUTY TO BE FAIR AND HONEST
BONUS QUESTION:
5) Does anyone ask more annoying questions than coinguy1?
you do not ask annoying questions
<< <i> Although I agree an ethical duty is not relative, and it is always owed, it seems most of these responses are a bit Polyana-ish and politically correct. >>
I disagree. There are many who maintain high ethical standards day in and day out. For many it is a subconscious effort as they simply live by higher principles. However I can understand why some might see many of these posts as polyana-ish.
Most people know what is fair and honest; as we all know, human behavior often deviates from ethical guidelines. You have to start with best intentions;if that is being a PolyAnna then I am guilty and I hope you too.
I guess there are people including coin dealers that will tell you they will treat you right and do so; others that espouse the virtues and deceive you; finally there are some that tell you that you and they are adversaries in this transaction and mean it. I prefer the former; avoid the second and handle the third with respect and caution.
1) Friend (coworker or not is a moot point, IMHO)
2) Dealer w/ established relationship
3) Coworking non friend
4) Unrelated dealer
That is all. You may continue.
1) Friends must always be honest in dealing with friends without exception (I find this truth to be self evident).
2) A dealer with an established relationship must be expected to be in the near location of honesty excepting small details and points of business that may be prudently omitted. For an example take yesterday's thread about haggling on a coin priced at $1K. I think that a dealer has no responsibility to quote a "best price" "honestly" when asked. I agree with several of the posters to that thread (MrEureka being the one I remember off the top of my head) that said that the definition of "best price" can change quickly - even instantly - based upon the variables of the scenario. Under the strictest of definitions this would call into question the dealer's "honesty." Therefore I believe that a trusted dealer is less liable to be "honest" with a clueless customer with rare coins than is a friend.
3) I next listed the coworking non friend after some deliberation. The only reason I did this is that if you have a relationship with a dealer I assume that they are more emotionally bonded to you than somebody you work with that isn't a friend. After all, if you work with a person and they are not your friend there must be a reason for that.
4) Unrelated dealers, while I still expect them to operate with the utmost of honesty, are only a part of the transaction because there is a coin involved. If they don't know the coin bearer from Adam (so to speak), they are intrinsically more interested in the coin itself than the person - especially if this clueless individual seems to be a one time customer. Do I think this is right? No. But I do think it's realistic.
<< <i>
<< <i> Although I agree an ethical duty is not relative, and it is always owed, it seems most of these responses are a bit Polyana-ish and politically correct. >>
I disagree. There are many who maintain high ethical standards day in and day out. For many it is a subconscious effort as they simply live by higher principles. However I can understand why some might see many of these posts as polyana-ish. >>
Don't get me wrong. Anyone who knows me knows the ethical side of things is paramount to me. Nevertheless, I believe that, when presented with the opportunity to rip a coin, more people than you think will rip it without thinking twice, other than to rationalize why it was okay to make the rip.
...and BTW, Mark, you know I was kidding with my answer to the bonus question. Just trying to get a little jab in.
Specializing in 1854 and 1855 large FE patterns
<
Rick, I did think you were kidding. Likewise, I hope you will know that I'm "kidding" if I see you at Long Beach and have a BIG jab (followed by a left hook and then a body slam) for you.
There is no ethical duty , it's survival of the shrewdest.
I was taught to treat others the way I want to be treated. Often times in the world, a great portion of the populace does not subscribe to this thinking.
Obviously the friend / co-worker / dealer each have ethical duties that arise from different sources. A simple co-worker relationship isn't the same as a friend relationship. In that sense, the friend owes the stronger duty. A dealer, by dint of his position and knowledge, always owes a duty to the seller to behave ethically.
The ethical thing for a co-worker is to pay the seller what a good, honest dealer would pay to a knowledgeable seller. (That, incidentally, is what dealers should always pay, whether or not the seller is knowledgeable.)
A friend should probably pay a little more - the price he would pay at auction or from a dealer (or other knowledgeable seller) if he were buying it for his own collection. Or, he should offer to help the friend get the most he can by getting the coin slabbed and listing it on Ebay or elsewhere. If the coin is sold to a third party, it is not wrong for a friend to make some money on the deal - 10% or whatever - so long as the seller knows about it and the collector-friend helps the seller get more than he otherwise would bhave.
Mark, a too quick read leads me to say "both" ... that seems obvious. Ethical standards exist as a benchmark all human beings should strive to achieve. Different cultures may give the same basic standards different names, true, but the standards themseleves are independent of any applied human conditions or cute rationalizations as to why, in such and such a case, it's possible to safely ignore them.
KJ
PS. You ask great questions!
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Of course, a sense of ethics and the reality of any situation that revolves around money are often unrelated.
2 Professional Dealer
3 Professional Dealer
4 Professional Dealer
While everyone should be ethical, the professional has a GREATER DUTY since they
generally have greater knowlege than the casual collector or lay person.
<< <i><<and BTW, Mark, you know I was kidding with my answer to the bonus question. Just trying to get a little jab in.
Rick, I did think you were kidding. Likewise, I hope you will know that I'm "kidding" if I see you at Long Beach and have a BIG jab (followed by a left hook and then a body slam) for you.
Bring it on!
Specializing in 1854 and 1855 large FE patterns
<
2) thou should not screw thy co-worker
3) thou should not screw thy co-worker or people who don't know what they have (both)
4) thou should not screw thy co-worker or people who don't know what they have (both)
5) ?
6) I don't see anything but greed in the original thread.
6a) the co-worker offered too little and didn't tell the seller what he had
6b) the seller wanted quick money and took a few hundred more than the coins are valued
6c) the typical dealer taking advantage of someone they don't know
7) did I say enough to make everyone see red?
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
<< <i>1) Which party has a greater ethical duty to be fair and honest with a clueless owner of rare coins, a co-worker who is NOT also a friend, or a professional dealer who does NOT have an established relationship with the seller?
BOTH EQUALLY HAVE AN ETHICAL DUTY TO BE FAIR AND HONEST
2) Which party has a greater ethical duty to be fair and honest with a clueless owner of rare coins, a co-worker who IS also a friend, or a professional dealer who does NOT have an established relationship with the seller?
BOTH EQUALLY HAVE AN ETHICAL DUTY TO BE FAIR AND HONEST
3) Which party has a greater ethical duty to be fair and honest with a clueless owner of rare coins, a co-worker who IS also a friend, or a professional dealer who HAS an established relationship with the seller?
BOTH EQUALLY HAVE AN ETHICAL DUTY TO BE FAIR AND HONEST
4) Which party has a greater ethical duty to be fair and honest with a clueless owner of rare coins, a co-worker who is NOT also a friend, or a professional dealer who HAS an established relationship with the seller?
BOTH EQUALLY HAVE AN ETHICAL DUTY TO BE FAIR AND HONEST
BONUS QUESTION:
5) Does anyone ask more annoying questions than coinguy1?
you do not ask annoying questions >>
I would tend to agree with this,
but feel the need for some flames
"BOTH EQUALLY HAVE AN ETHICAL DUTY TO BE FAIR AND HONEST"
Which is to say, NONE. It's a dog eat dog world
(Priest) BLASPHEMY he said it again, did you hear him?