Would you have bid $36 for this BU 1881-S Morgan?

HonoluluDude

From what I understand, it's a pretty common date.

Just wondering what makes people bid up ebay auctions like this--
Is it the seller's reputation, the nice images, or the MS-65 in the
title or all of the above?

Just asking out of curiosity, no disrespect towards the seller.

link

nankraut

Looks like a $15-$20 coin to me.

p8nt

Yeah I would have if I had seen it. That is an easy MS65 coin assuming the images arent hiding anything.

ER

What's that line across the face?

HonoluluDude

Hmm... Based off the responses so far, it's all about perception?

p8nt

Looks like lint or something on the 2x2 to me.

jayboxx

It's not bad looking, no idea what that line is on the face though.

HonoluluDude

That fine line through the face looks like a slight scratch. Look at how the line continues and highlights in the hair area.

DennisH

Looks like a 64 to me if that's a thin vertical scrape on the face.

HonoluluDude

<< <i>Looks like a 64 to me if that's a thin vertical scrape on the face. >>



PCGS lists a 64 at $70. So if that's the case it's a good value buy?

rec78

If that line is a scratch then it has no shot at MS65 also i think that the chin is way to marked to make 65-- maybe a 64 on a good day. if the line is a hair or something on the scanner- then yes i would buy it for $36.00 Could it be a die scratch?

p8nt

Why would a scrape be black though?



This one makes you think about it.

DennisH

PCGS may list it at $70 for a 64, but that's an absurdly high price out in the real world. You can pretty much buy all you want in PCGS or NGC holders for $50 or a bit less.

p8nt

<< <i>PCGS lists a 64 at $70. So if that's the case it's a good value buy? >>




Not necessarily. You would be able to sell that coin for about $46 or so.

$36 for the coin
$3 shipping
$18 grading fee to be slabbed as MS64 by PCGS
$5 (or so) for shipping fees to and from PCGS.
----------------------
$62 + a 2 or 3 month to get your coin back in that MS64 slab.

HonoluluDude

It's definitely a light scratch-- look at how the line follows through to the hair and how the light hits the scratch on the raised areas of the hair.

HonoluluDude

<< <i>

<< <i>PCGS lists a 64 at $70. So if that's the case it's a good value buy? >>




Not necessarily. You would be able to sell that coin for about $46 or so.
>>



Which brings me to my next question-- Why do graded coins sell way
lower on the open market than what it's listed at in price guides?

p8nt

Just sent the seller a question.



<< <i>Hello. We were discussing this Morgan in a coin forum and using it for the purpose of education and grading. If you wouldn't mind, can you tell us what the black line through Liberty's face is? We are all really interested to see if it is a scratch or something on the 2x2.

Thanks.

Ben >>





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<< <i>Which brings me to my next question-- Why do graded coins sell way
lower on the open market than what it's listed at in price guides? >>



They are meant to be guides and are not definate prices. If I remember correctly, the general rule is to take 70% of the PCGS and that should be close to accurate. Of course this doesnt work with everything. There are coins that are priced extremely high in the guide, and some that are also reflected at extremely low prices. If you really want a good guide, Heritage Auction Archives would be a good place to start.

ccr

I use to get MS63`s graded for that price a few years ago retail. Prices for early " S " mint Morgans in 63 hasn`t gone up much. 64/65 and higher has been up for about 2 or 3 years now.

Like everyone else, the only real issue I have is the scratch. I don`t know if it`s the coin or flip. For $36, I`ve seen worse in TPG holders. It`s a reasonable price though IMHO judging the photo at face value.

DennisH

"Which brings me to my next question-- Why do graded coins sell way
lower on the open market than what it's listed at in price guides?"

Cynics among us might say that priority #1 of price guides isn't accuracy. The very cynnical among us might say the objective may actually be to print high prices that make folks think they are getting deals when they go into shops and shows and find the coins for less. (The bottom line is, it helps encourage people to actually buy, instead of just shop.)

oreville

Quite frankly, if that scratch is for real then I would grade it MS-63, at best. Remember MS-63 is supposed to be choice BU.

PCGS would not grade such a coin if the scratch is very noticeable to the unaided eye.

WTCG

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>PCGS lists a 64 at $70. So if that's the case it's a good value buy? >>




Not necessarily. You would be able to sell that coin for about $46 or so.
>>



Which brings me to my next question-- Why do graded coins sell way
lower on the open market than what it's listed at in price guides? >>



Because many price guides, such as the PCGS price guides are suggested retail prices for sight-seen coins that are solid for their grades. Common date MS64 Morgans are considered the ultimate widgets, and the majority of the PCGS and NGC graded coins are traded sight-unseen. Most MS64's are bought and sold without being looked at in person.

The coin in question is very nice except for that scratch across the face. If that scratch is in fact on the coin then an MS62 or MS63 grade is appropriate.

I'll always buy PCGS and NGC graded MS64 Morgans without seeing them. PM me for my most current buy prices.

johnsim03

<< <i>Quite frankly, if that scratch is for real then I would grade it MS-63, at best. Remember MS-63 is supposed to be choice BU.

PCGS would not grade such a coin if the scratch is very noticeable to the unaided eye. >>



Hi Oreville:

I'm confused a bit - since when is a MS-63 supposed to be "Choice BU?"

I thought that MS-63 is supposed to be BU, or "Select BU", and that MS-65 is
"Choice BU."

p.s. I do not have the PCGS grading book yet - am relying on my "ANA memory" for this question...

John

Myqqy

I think proudpapa should have mentioned that ginormous scratch going across liberty's face, and the fact that the scratch would be a significant limiter on the grade. No way it goes past ms63- and it's a dull, white, widget anyway....

oreville

johnsim03:

When the grading services began their existence, their grading conversion from descriptive to numeric was as follows:

MS-60 BU or Unc.
MS-61 BU or Unc.
MS-62 BU or Unc. (sometimes known as select BU)
MS-63 Choice BU
MS-64 Choice BU (aka Very Choice BU)
MS-65 Gem BU
MS-66 Superlative (Superb) Gem BU
MS-67 Superlative (Superb) Gem BU
MS-68
MS-69
MS-70

johnsim03

Hi Oreville:

Thanks for that. The only grading guide I possess is an older version (2d Edition!) of the ANA Grading Standards,
which only gives Typical (60) Select (63) Choice (65) Gem (67) and Perfect (70) for uncirculated grades.

Wow, in the descriptive sense, all of my MS-63s and MS-64s have magically transformed themselves
into Choice BU in the last 20+ years, apparently...

John

fc

no, because most morgans are as common as dirt.

morgannut2

Absolutely no one uses the old ANA discriptions any more. You can also look a Stack's Auction descriptions of raw coins to see how these do agree with the terms listed above.
-----
To answer the question, NO I wouldn't buy a raw 81S morgan for $36.

BillJones

The bids on common date silver dollars have been pushed up in recent weeks. Some dealers are now paying $38 for MS-63 and $56 for PCGS and NGC certified coins.

This coin looks like a marginal buy because of the long scratch, which MIGHT be a staple scratch. If that's the case the buyer hosed himself. And since the coin is raw, I'd say he still paid all the money in a sense. This coin is not an MS-65, it's worth slabbing as an MS-63 or 64.

johnsim03

I think I understand now.

So, in the raw world, a "Choice BU" can be as little as MS-63, and an MS-63, even though it is an average
example, could (and would) be described as Choice.

Sounds like an impact of market grading to me, and a general lowering of standards, over time.

But, then, I am still trying to figure out the difference between a 63 and a 64, how split-grading is
factored in, etc.

Methinks I need to add to my library, and look at more coins...

John

BillJones

<< <i>But, then, I am still trying to figure out the difference between a 63 and a 64, how split-grading is >>



Without the big, long scratch, this coin appears to be an MS-64. In fact given the sloppy service that sometimes happens when coins like this a bulk graded, I've seen pieces like this (once more WITHOUT the scrach) find their way into MS-65 holders. The big scrach is the problem here, and this coin might have been a reject from a roll or number of rolls of coins that were sent in for bulk grading.

As for split grading, that died with ANACS papers. The rule usually is the worst side determines the grade. I'm not sure why, but for most all U.S. coins, the reverse is often better than the obverse. And since the obverse makes up for perhaps 75% of the grade, quite often you willl see a very nice reverse (MS-64 or 65 quality) paired with a so-so obverse that grabs an MS-63 for the coin as a whole.

johnsim03

<< <i>

<< <i>But, then, I am still trying to figure out the difference between a 63 and a 64, how split-grading is >>



Without the big, long scratch, this coin appears to be an MS-64. In fact given the sloppy service that sometimes happens when coins like this a bulk graded, I've seen pieces like this (once more WITHOUT the scrach) find their way into MS-65 holders. The big scrach is the problem here, and this coin might have been a reject from a roll or number of rolls of coins that were sent in for bulk grading.

As for split grading, that died with ANACS papers. The rule usually is the worst side determines the grade. I'm not sure why, but for most all U.S. coins, the reverse is often better than the obverse. And since the obverse makes up for perhaps 75% of the grade, quite often you willl see a very nice reverse (MS-64 or 65 quality) paired with a so-so obverse that grabs an MS-63 for the coin as a whole. >>



Thank you, Bill. Could you recommend a one-volume reference to me so that I can re-educate myself
on current grading?

Kind Regards,
John

BillJones

The best book you can buy is the ANA Grading Guide. The trouble is the best part of the grading guides is in the circulated coin sections. It's hard to learn the grading of Mint State coins from pictures. Luster is the key, and you can't see everything you need to know about luster from pictures. As for marks, that's more of an art. Size and especialy location are important when it comes to marks. A mark in the face, like the big long scratch on this coin is usually a lot worse than a mark in the field or mark on the reverse.

The book is only a start, however. After you have read through the verbage, you will need to look at many, many PCGS and NGC certified coins. Since you will often see more certified Morgan Dollars at coin shows than anything else, that would be a good place to concentrate.

HonoluluDude

Okay here's another BU Morgan that went for $41. Good deal?

1902-O

BillJones

The only way that it is a good deal is if you want to stick in a raw set of Morgan dollars. If you are looking to sell it and make anything, no.

It's hard to tell from the picture if the cheek has been "thumbed." By that I mean that one runs their thumb over the check to make it look smoother and hide bag marks. If not, the coin is probably an MS-64, which is currently bid a $56. The trouble is the $56 is only good on PCGS and NGC graded coins, and at $41 bucks you can't send it in for grading and come out on top.

HonoluluDude

<< <i> The trouble is the $56 is only good on PCGS and NGC graded coins, and at $41 bucks you can't send it in for grading and come out on top. >>



I was kind of thinking along the same lines. Just wondering if it was
people getting caught up in the heat of competition and overbid it.

mcheath

if you want it for a dansco set or it fits in with your collection you might want it at that price. i personally wouldn't pay 36 but i ve seen a lot more money go to alot worse coins.