Here's an interesting story about an 1854-o $3

BigJohnD · May 27, 2006 1:15PM

A guy I work with comes into work and tells me that he's going to see his father and he'll be back with some gold coins that he would sell me. So he comes back on Tuesday with a huge binder full of gold coins. Now, my flight is leaving Tuesday at noon and I'm in the office at 9 for 45 minutes. He says take a look and reserve whatever coins you want. So he's sitting there with a red book as I'm looking through the coins and I pick a few that I like and he pulls them out and tells me they're mine we agree on a price and a deal is made. Included are 5 $10 indians, 1 $5 indian, and 2 $3 1854-o pieces. The $3 would grade 62 on a very bad day at pcgs. So he asks for $2000 for the 2 $3 and I offer him $3500 or a deal that I'll split the profit with him. I know I'm going to make a killing. Come back from Kansas City on Friday and lo and behold the princesses are gone. So I ask him what happened and he tells me he went to a dealer (in Chicago) and the guy gave him 2100 for the 2 princesses and he took it. I wanted to cry. Oh well. He did offer me the balance of the $5 libs with mottos that range from xf-au for 175 each. Haven't got back to him yet but mulling taking them. Shoud I????????

RKKay · May 27, 2006 1:17PM

That's a serious heartbreaker.

ms70 · May 27, 2006 1:20PM

PCGS= $60,000 / CoinWorld Values= $40,000 for 1854-O $3 in MS62.

You offered him F-12 money?

mrearlygold · May 27, 2006 1:21PM

<< PCGS= $60,000 / CoinWorld Values= $40,000 for 1854-O $3 in MS62.

You offered him Fine money? >>

Sounds that way doesn't it

mrearlygold · May 27, 2006 1:23PM

I guess the next question is what's the "dealers" name in chicago?

ms70 · May 27, 2006 1:26PM

Heritage 1854-O $3 MS61 PCGS Sold for: $86,250.00 (includes BP) Ended: Apr 26 2006 10:00PM

mrearlygold · May 28, 2006 2:49AM

TTT

Kaelasdad · May 28, 2006 3:17AM

If i had the same situation I would have been very upfront with the person. You had inside information and you held back, and it ended up costing your co-worker and yourself. had you said, these might be worth moon money--serious cash, tens of thousands, lets get them graded, and you can give me a commission because im going to make you some serious cash, you both would be feeling great, and you would have made a great friend. As it is, if you tell him "you dummy, what have you done", he will realise that you were going to take him even worse, so you get to bite your tongue, and he gets to continue being less well off. Hope he never finds out.

What a shame, and we think dealers are the ones to watch out for, now we have to watch out from our close associates.

Oh--you should not buy anything from him, you do not deserve to buy anything from him. You should tell him to pick anyone off the street, they will be a better choice, as they have never screwed him, and whatever they offer him will never be close to what you allowed him to lose.

JMHO

Tonelover · May 28, 2006 3:19AM

How are your skills at detecting counterfeit gold?

braddick · May 28, 2006 3:25AM

<< How are your skills at detecting counterfeit gold? >>

Absolutely.

There's a reason these are pricey in Uncirculated. They're rare. More counterfeits are out there than the real ones.

Still leaves the above question unanswered, "you offered him F12 money?".

BillJones · May 28, 2006 3:33AM

<< How are your skills at detecting counterfeit gold? >>

I thought about making that point, but decided not to be the skunk at the party.

Crooks have been making counterfeit $3 gold coins for as long as I've been paying more than face value for coins, which goes back to the early 1960s. When it comes to counterfeit problems $3 gold coins are the worst.

Kaelasdad · May 28, 2006 3:36AM

Maybe the guy has a 63 vette in the garage and you can offer him $100 just to haul that old thing away?

Sorry couldnt resist.

mrearlygold · May 28, 2006 3:43AM

Couple grand paid for fake coins? My bet is this poor fellow who had the coins was taken advantage of.

Justice would prevail if the alledged dealer who bought them for a couple grand got faked out.

Far as the other guy who thinks "he" lost out, where's the thumbs down icon?

Russ · May 28, 2006 3:55AM

<< had you said, these might be worth moon money--serious cash, tens of thousands, lets get them graded, and you can give me a commission because im going to make you some serious cash, you both would be feeling great, and you would have made a great friend. >>

This is what should have been done. If they're genuine, both parties do very, very well. I'd love a nice fat commission as part of making sure this guy got what the coins were worth. It's the perfect situation. Easy money for me, a HUGELY pleasant surprise for him.

Russ, NCNE

coinguy1 · May 28, 2006 6:47AM

<<So he asks for $2000 for the 2 $3 and I offer him $3500 or a deal that I'll split the profit with him. I know I'm going to make a killing. Come back from Kansas City on Friday and lo and behold the princesses are gone. So I ask him what happened and he tells me he went to a dealer (in Chicago) and the guy gave him 2100 for the 2 princesses and he took it.>>

So, the owner of the coins got screwed by a dealer instead of his co-worker. Rather than "Here's an interesting story..." I think the thread title should have been "Here's a disgusting story..."

Julian · May 28, 2006 7:16AM

I have never seen a counterfeit 1854-O $3 gold!

coinguy1 · May 28, 2006 8:07AM

So, who has a greater (ethical) duty to a person who has valuable coins and doesn't know anything about them - a dealer or a co-worker? I think this question might make for a good thread.

Russ · May 28, 2006 8:11AM

<< So, who has a greater (ethical) duty to a person who has valuable coins and doesn't know anything about them - a dealer or a co-worker? >>

I think it's equal.

Russ, NCNE

Frankcoins · May 28, 2006 8:37AM

Had you told him these were potentially $50,000 each coins, although there is a possibility that they are counterfeit,
he would not have sold them to someone else. Without putting up a cent of your own money (except to PCGS) you would have had no loss if they were bad, and a potential $10,000 (10%) commission if they were good. And your friend would have about $90,000 more. Full disclosure is best for everyone. You had better hope he doesn't read this message board....

Darkmane · May 28, 2006 9:01AM

The only happy ending to this story would be his "friend" coming to the boards, telling the world he had wisened up, and BigJohnD was fired from his current position..... and the coins were real - MS 62

TomB · May 28, 2006 9:16AM

<< A guy I work with comes into work and tells me that he's going to see his father and he'll be back with some gold coins that he would sell me. So he comes back on Tuesday with a huge binder full of gold coins. Now, my flight is leaving Tuesday at noon and I'm in the office at 9 for 45 minutes. He says take a look and reserve whatever coins you want. So he's sitting there with a red book as I'm looking through the coins and I pick a few that I like and he pulls them out and tells me they're mine we agree on a price and a deal is made. Included are 5 $10 indians, 1 $5 indian, and 2 $3 1854-o pieces. The $3 would grade 62 on a very bad day at pcgs. So he asks for $2000 for the 2 $3 and I offer him $3500 or a deal that I'll split the profit with him. I know I'm going to make a killing. Come back from Kansas City on Friday and lo and behold the princesses are gone. So I ask him what happened and he tells me he went to a dealer (in Chicago) and the guy gave him 2100 for the 2 princesses and he took it. I wanted to cry. Oh well. He did offer me the balance of the $5 libs with mottos that range from xf-au for 175 each. Haven't got back to him yet but mulling taking them. Shoud I???????? >>

If you are not already a troll, I suggest you come back in a few weeks with a new ID because anyone who reads your thread knows what type of person you are and that you should never be trusted.

CaptHenway · May 28, 2006 12:06PM

<< I have never seen a counterfeit 1854-O $3 gold! >>

Me neither.
Tom DeLorey

MFH · May 28, 2006 12:40PM

<< 

<< PCGS= $60,000 / CoinWorld Values= $40,000 for 1854-O $3 in MS62.

You offered him Fine money? >>

Sounds that way doesn't it >>

And you work with this guy ? Glad I'm not your coworker. Why wern't you up front with him ?

The killer is that you'd split the profits with him...you're a prince.

fc · May 28, 2006 3:10PM

hey, the guy had a redbook right with him.

he obviously could have done 15 minutes of searching
on the internet.

why flame the buyer?

HEY PEOPLE, there is such a thing as personal responsibility.

too bad about the coins. the mottos 5 libs better be better
dates or you are in trouble

they sell for 175 on average
on the bay.

BillJones · May 28, 2006 9:45PM

<< 

<< I have never seen a counterfeit 1854-O $3 gold! >>

Me neither.
Tom DeLorey >>

I agree. Virtually all, if not all counterfeit $3 gold coins, don't have mint marks; but there is a first time for anything.

coinguy1 · May 28, 2006 10:20PM

<< why flame the buyer? >>

If by "the buyer" you mean the person who started the thread, because he tried to take advantage of his co-worker, who knew far less than he did about the coins, to the tune of many thousands of dollars.

<< HEY PEOPLE, there is such a thing as personal responsibility >>

And there is (supposedly) such a thing as integrity too.

Julian · May 28, 2006 10:40PM

IMHO, both the co-worker and the dealer have a responsiblilty to the unsophisticated owner.

The dealer has a higher level of responsibility because he is being sought out as a professional.

MFH · May 28, 2006 11:15PM

<< IMHO, both the co-worker and the dealer have a responsiblilty to the unsophisticated owner.

The dealer has a higher level of responsibility because he is being sought out as a professional. >>

Amen to that Julian.

coinguy1 · May 28, 2006 11:35PM

<< IMHO, both the co-worker and the dealer have a responsiblilty to the unsophisticated owner.

The dealer has a higher level of responsibility because he is being sought out as a professional. >>

I definitely agree with the first sentence above, but I'm not certain about the second one.

To me, at least, it would depend upon the relationship of the two co-workers. If they are "friends", I think it is fair for one friend to have as much or more trust in the other, than in a dealer, especially if he doesn't know the dealer. In that case, the friend in whom trust is being placed, should have an equal, if not greater responsibility to his friend than the dealer would.

mrearlygold · May 29, 2006 3:54AM

TTT

BigJohnD · May 29, 2006 4:00AM

I just got back to the computer and was somewhat suprised to see that I was being ripped apart. I should clarify a few things that I did not in the original post. First, my co-worker has supposedly been collecting for 30+ years. In no way would I consider him a novice. He was sitting there with a redbook. He's in a pretty bad spot right now (going through a divorce) and he needs cash bad. I did pick up 8 coins from him at a very fair price. Maybe even overpaid. However, when he quoted me the price I told him that they were worth more than that and offered to throw them on ebay for him at 10% of the final price. I did not get the coins and did my best to tell the guy that the coins were worth more. I was getting on a flight in 2 hours and didn't have time to hold the guys hand. The guy wanted cash fast. Bottom line. In no way did I attempt to rip him. I know it may seem that way but there were more things going on behind the scenes. I do have a conscience and am increrdibly honorable so I do take offense to people who suggest I change my screen name. I was just relaying a story about an experience.

JadeRareCoin · May 29, 2006 4:48AM

<< I just got back to the computer and was somewhat suprised to see that I was being ripped apart. >>

Welcome to the forums. It can be harsh around here at times. The problem is that your original post was not worded very well. It clearly states that you were "going to make a killing".

<< However, when he quoted me the price I told him that they were worth more than that and offered to throw them on ebay for him at 10% of the final price. I did not get the coins and did my best to tell the guy that the coins were worth more. >>

That's why people got so upset with you; you stated just the opposite in your original post. For example, he offered to sell them to you at $4,000 and you countered at $3,500. What does that have to do with eBay at 10%? How did you tell them they were worth more if you countered at $500 less than his wholesale "I am getting a divorce and need cash fast" offer of $4,000? It is just contradictory.

On another issue that some are missing, I think that it is highly unlikely that any collector (or dealer) would have two (2) 54-O $3 in MS-62. Sounds like they are counterfeit if there are 2 in the same album right next to $150 coins. On the other hand, I can't imagine a dealer paying $2,100 for each if they were fake.

Welcome to the forums! Maybe you can make better sense of all of this for the forum members. Sometimes you need thick skin to hang out around here.

coinguy1 · May 29, 2006 4:52AM

BigJohnD, in your own words you said " I know I'm going to make a killing", and considering what the coins were and the price you offered for them, you were correct.

You're trying to present a completely different attitude and story now - if I had to choose which version to believe, I'd go with the first. You might not like it, but you should at least understand it.

RYK · May 29, 2006 5:29AM

That's why people got so upset with you; you stated just the opposite in your original post. For example, he offered to sell them to you at $4,000 and you countered at $3,500.

Perhaps, I understood the OP wrong, but I interpreted the exchange as follows:

<<Co-worker: Give me $2000 for both (total).

BigJohnD: I'll give you $3500 for both, but I would rather help you sell the coins for greater mutual profit.>>

Considering that there is the possibility that the coins are counterfeit, the $3500 offered might be reasonable. If the co-worker is indeed a knowledgeable coin person, why was he willing to part with the coins for $2000? Who knows...the coins he sold BigJohnD might be counterfeit, also.

Sometimes these scenarios are difficult to describe. A while back, I posted a real life example in which I was trying to guide my less experienced friend, who was selling a coin on his own on ebay. Several people jumped on me, too, accusing me of trying to rip him off. Turns out, not unexpectedly, had he listened to my advice, he would have nettede $250 more on that sale. I had nothing to gain or lose either way.

coinguy1 · May 29, 2006 5:53AM

<<Considering that there is the possibility that the coins are counterfeit, the $3500 offered might be reasonable.>>

Robert, while that is possible, the original poster did not indicate that he had any such question/concern. Also, other posters have commented that they have never seen a counterfeit 1854-O $3 and a dealer bought the coins for more than a counterfeit price. Lastly, I just can't (edited to add: get) past the words:

<>

RYK · May 29, 2006 6:08AM

Lastly, I just can't past the words:

<>

Maybe, he was on his way to committing a murder, and this was unrelated to the coin transaction.

michael · May 29, 2006 6:23AM

pig dog

secondrepublic · May 29, 2006 8:11AM

<< Lastly, I just can't (edited to add: get) past the words:

<> >>

I think his exact words were "So he asks for $2000 for the 2 $3 and I offer him $3500 or a deal that I'll split the profit with him. I know I'm going to make a killing."

If the coins are worth many tens of thousands of dollars and he splits the profits (even a 90 / 10 split), that's still making a killing in my book for not doing a heck of a lot of work.

On the other hand, the $3500 bid seems ridiculously low given the condition. But the seller supposedly had a Redbook in hand, so who knows ?

coinguy1 · May 29, 2006 8:14AM

<< On the other hand, the $3500 bid seems ridiculously low given the condition. But the seller supposedly had a Redbook in hand, so who knows >>

My guess is that despite the "Redbook", the seller was unaware of the mint-marks and their large financial implications.

mrearlygold · May 29, 2006 9:20AM

A) who is the dealer that supposedly bought them?

Too bad the fellow who allegedly owned these coins couldn't be made aware of this forum.

TwoSides2aCoin · May 29, 2006 11:14AM

I think the interesting twist is how a guy that tells a story gets lambasted as a non tustworthy , dog, pig, slime of the earth piece of filth ?

First and foremost, the seller got took 'cause he wanted to get took. It isn't the author's fault. The seller gave a price and the tendered offer was above that. The author of the thread says he went out of town and returned, and the seller went to another dealer and got even more.
So, the author is not bad for reporting his findings, nor should he to be judged for wanting to "MAKE A KILLING". The buyer in Chicago obviously will.

Where is the crime ? Remember : 80% of the people reserve the right to remain ignorant. Some people throw their whole life away at a casino, but the Casino is not to blame.

What is this attack on the author about ? Because the coin is rare and worth X amount versus what he can get it for or because the author had the opportunity (even if for a moment) to capitalize ?

How does that one saying go ? Why worry about the splinter in your brother's eye~ When a dealer in Chi Town has a beam in his

coinguy1 · May 29, 2006 11:26AM

<< In no way did I attempt to rip him >>

BigJohnD, if that's the case, you should have no problem telling your co-worker that he left a healthy five figures on the table in selling to the dealer. That way, he will at least know not to sell to that dealer in the future, and if he chooses to, can even let the dealer know what he has since learned from you.

<< What is this attack on the author about ? >>

TwoSides2aCoin, I'm surprised that you would ask that. A co-worker was, in his own words, going to "make a killing" off of his fellow co-worker. That, to me, and to many others, represents unethical behavior.

TwoSides2aCoin · May 29, 2006 11:47AM

<< What is this attack on the author about ? >>

TwoSides2aCoin, I'm surprised that you would ask that. A co-worker was, in his own words, going to "make a killing" off of his fellow co-worker. That, to me, and to many others, represents unethical behavior. >>

Mark , you know I normally side with you in most issues, especially in ethics as that is key to our success in this field. I think perhaps we are taking the term "making a killing" out of context. A huge profit could be made and the seller apparently didn't care, as he already had a figure in mind. I realize it was a five figure "killing", but still. It is the seller's choice. It is not like two guys conspired to woo this man out of his riches.

As always, I appreciate your posts, Mark. They cause one to analyze one's self

coinguy1 · May 29, 2006 11:55AM

<<A huge profit could be made and the seller apparently didn't care, as he already had a figure in mind. I realize it was a five figure "killing", but still. It is the seller's choice>>

We can't know if the seller cared about leaving "a huge profit"/five figures on the table, because his co-worker didn't bother to tell him about that. Nor did the dealer, I imagine.

<<As always, I appreciate your posts, Mark. They cause one to analyze one's self

>>

Thanks, that is often my intent.

lsica · May 29, 2006 12:04PM

Reminds me of a story from when I was working as a kid at a local coin shop about 20 years ago. An actual "little old lady" comes in with a Bust Dollar, about XF/AU condition. Dealer offers her a couple hundred dollars for it (bid was around $1000 or more for it back then). She says "No thanks", and walks away.

When I ask the dealer why he offered such a low price, he comes up with this excuse: "I wasn't sure if it was real. And anyway, if I offered too much for it, she would've thought it was valuable and never sold it to me"

???

mrearlygold · May 29, 2006 1:10PM

<< Reminds me of a story from when I was working as a kid at a local coin shop about 20 years ago. An actual "little old lady" comes in with a Bust Dollar, about XF/AU condition. Dealer offers her a couple hundred dollars for it (bid was around $1000 or more for it back then). She says "No thanks", and walks away.

When I ask the dealer why he offered such a low price, he comes up with this excuse: "I wasn't sure if it was real. And anyway, if I offered too much for it, she would've thought it was valuable and never sold it to me"

Here's an interesting story about an 1854-o $3

Comments

Leave a Comment