BB'd for Artificial Toning.....Input Needed

RA236

This IHC was BB'd by PCGS for artificial color. Since I am new to collecting, can somebody help point out the area(s) that give it away? I need to learn how to spot this on my own. Thanks

edited to add PCGS







Ralph

Cladiator

You got me. I've seen much crazier colors and patterns on PCGS slabbed Indians before.

21Walker

I'm with cladiator...........????????????????..........Rick

tsacch

Which grading company bb'd it?

coinbuf

Just a guess but the coin looks well struck and should grade MS64 or better; except that in your pic the luster looks dead. That could be the lighting or it could be its been cleaned and retoined.

Chris

TomB

Business strike IHCs, and this looks like a business strike to me, rarely take on that off-aqua color that is showcased on your coin.

dizzyfoxx

It looks nice, why they BB'd it? Judging by just the image, I'm confused why...

Connecticoin

It has an unnatural pink tinge to it -- perhaps it was dipped with an attempted re-coloring / toning.

Too bad -- nice detail on the coin.

coindeuce

If this had been AT'ed, in all likelihood that aqua blue color would have been floating on the top surfaces of the lettering on obverse or extensively on the top surface of the wreath on reverse. Unless of course the AT had been deliberately removed from the lettering and wreath, which would have required a highly skilled hand technique. Not very likely that anyone would put that amount of effort into purposely AT'ing a coin of this value.

IMHO the TPG just wants multiple submissions on this to ramp up revenues...

edited to read "would have required"

ColonialCoinUnion

Based on the photo, I would guess that this coin would slab eventually if submitted a few times.

kryptonitecomics

It looks clearly cleaned and retoned to me from the images supplied?....I am suprised so many think it looks ok? I would be scratching my head if I saw that in a PCGS holder................looks just like the recolored/AT IHC's floating around ebay in large quantities....was this coin acquired via that channel?

Here is a coin with similar colors and shades of blue. Not a twin of course but this one is listed as cleaned and then retoned naturally so who knows????

Ebay

SamByrd

rather nice indian, imo if the coin is close to the image I think it is posible pcgs made an error, it looks original to me I would suggest that you send it to ngc, I would bet it will slab at around ms64

CarlWohlforth

It doesn't look like a typical Red Brown Mint State Indian. I'm used to seeing darker color on the high parts with some red in the areas protected by the devices. The color doesn't go from the rims to the center. Nor does it go from the high parts outward. Tom says the color isn't usual for MS Indians.

I wish I could be more scientific about it and give you some specific rules. I think the key is to see thousands of Indians and get a feel for what looks normal and what looks natural. It helps if you know how the coin you are looking at was stored. When you compare coins that were stored in one folder versus some stored in cabinets vs some in envelopes or tissue you get a feel for what is natural.

beep

<< <i>Business strike IHCs, and this looks like a business strike to me, rarely take on that off-aqua color that is showcased on your coin. >>


Looks like the coin is simulating proof color tissue tone. So I'm curious, does bu never has this toning?
This coin does look funky to me....
Brian

Myqqy

IMHO the TPG just wants multiple submissions on this to ramp up revenues...

That would be my first guess too...

Deadhorse

<< <i>IMHO the TPG just wants multiple submissions on this to ramp up revenues...

That would be my first guess too... >>




Indeed, that was my first thought.

Elcontador

Am with Tom on this. That aqua color (and other vibrant colors) are not uncommon on PF IHCs, but this doesn't look right on a business strike. I don't like seeing aqua or purple on business strike copper.

RA236

Well, my ignorance is showing again.......I hate it when that happens. I purchased this coin as a proof. I obviously don't know how to tell the difference betwen a proof and a business strike. Anybody care to educate me? At my age, I should know better than to jump into anything without research.

The seller has another IHC on ebay right now. Hope that I don't step on any toes but here is a link to a current auction that is presented just like the 1882 IHC in question.

Live and learn.

Link


Ralph

cointagious

<< <i>IMHO the TPG just wants multiple submissions on this to ramp up revenues...

That would be my first guess too... >>

Connecticoin

That seller routinely sells raw coins with color of questionable origin. See if you can talk him into taking it back since it BB'd -- many times these type of sellers willingly take returns to keep their rep intact so they can make $$$ off those who do know any better and never return coins.

CarlWohlforth

The first coin in this post does have a good strike. But it isn't as good as the one in the auction linked to. Also the rims on the 1882 are not as square as one would see on a proof. I'm not positive but guessing by the photos the first coin is MS and the second is proof.

ABC123

Yes, that's a great idea--try to get the dealer to take it back so you and he can "stick it" to some one else. Does anyone have any ethics ?

kryptonitecomics

<< <i>Yes, that's a great idea--try to get the dealer to take it back so you and he can "stick it" to some one else. Does anyone have any ethics ? >>



So he gets ripped off and you don't think he has a right to return the coin??? He is not responsible for the dealer screwing folks.......his concern is and should be trying to recoupe his money as he is not going to be able to tell the dealer how to run his business.

Frankcoins

Obvious AT. When you have enough experience, Basically you know it when you see it.

neocirrhitus

<< <i>Obvious AT. When you have enough experience, Basically you know it when you see it. >>



And yet, several people with tons of experience have said the opposite, or that they aren't sure. Makes you wonder if anyone really knows, or if it's just another opportunity for the grading companies to get more fees.......(tinfoil hat off)

ziggy29

I think it looks a little off for natural color.

Having said that, though, this is the type of coin that often used to get slabbed before they started getting really tight and bodybag-happy. These days almost anything can be bagged for questionable color.

MajorDuty

I actually kind of like it, if it was fairly cheap, but I don't like it when photographers angle their coins to the camera lens. It would look nice in an album I think, but I hope you didn't pay anything near what that other IHC is listed for that you pasted a link to.

That aqua color others have pointed out is the main detail that would have given me reason for pause. I'd expect color like that to be on a Morgan.

Conder101

<< <i>can somebody help point out the area(s) that give it away? I need to learn how to spot this on my own. Thanks >>


Nothing "gives it away". From what has been seen in slabs it is clear that the NT/AT decision is often just a toss up with no rhyme or reason. It all depends on the whim of the grader and how he is feeling that day.

cohodk

That coin looks cleaned and retoned to me. I dont like it.

anablep

I guess it depends on the luster associated with that coin.

Elcontador

When evaluating a coin's luster, an image often is inadequate. The typical cleaned Unc / slide IHC has a dull pinkish color, which isn't right, because it should tend toward orange (referred to as 'red'), or an orange and brown shade (referred to as "red-brown)." Also, when you rotate the coin, it looks dead; you will not see the cartwheel luster that is associated with an uncirculated coin.

Some older silver coins are dipped and then retone. Ie., I have a large dentil Capped Bust Dime that I am sure is an example of this. The retoned colors on the coin are a golden brown and dark blue mix. Copper is more reactive metal, and it doesn't retone like this.

A dipped coin will slab, a cleaned coin usually won't. The idea is that a dipped coin ideally only removes crud from the coin's surface and leaves the surfaces intact (though if you see many coins, this is often not the case). OTOH, cleaning usually damages the coin's surface.

You need to look at many coins, and if possible, have someone who knows more than you do look at some of them with you. A large coin show would be a good place to do this.