Shill bidding
stiffy
Posts: 407
I think it is dishonest to do it on ebay. Smoe have stated that it is not a crime or not a felony. Yet I have read about people doing felony prison time for it. I take Elliot Spitzer's word for it, it is a felony.
And here is an (hard to find smoetimes) ebay tutorial. Pay attention to #5:
http://pages.ebay.com/help/tutorial/sbiddingtutorial/nonjs2.html
"eBay members have been criminally prosecuted for Shill Bidding. Criminal prosecutions have resulted in both misdemeanor and felony convictions and large penalties, including fines and restitution of damages totaling over $100,000 in individual cases. eBay cooperates fully with Law Enforcement investigations."
Even if smoeone want s to argue whether it is a crime or not, it is just plain dishonest to do that without notifying the bidders that the owner and relatives, co-workers, roommates and others who are not on equal footing (because of who they know rather than what they know) may be bidding.
If a person will do dishonest acts like "protecting themselves" by artificail bidding, what else will they do that is less than honest?
If they "want it more than a bidder, let them start at the minimum or set a reserve, like honest ppl do.
And here is an (hard to find smoetimes) ebay tutorial. Pay attention to #5:
http://pages.ebay.com/help/tutorial/sbiddingtutorial/nonjs2.html
"eBay members have been criminally prosecuted for Shill Bidding. Criminal prosecutions have resulted in both misdemeanor and felony convictions and large penalties, including fines and restitution of damages totaling over $100,000 in individual cases. eBay cooperates fully with Law Enforcement investigations."
Even if smoeone want s to argue whether it is a crime or not, it is just plain dishonest to do that without notifying the bidders that the owner and relatives, co-workers, roommates and others who are not on equal footing (because of who they know rather than what they know) may be bidding.
If a person will do dishonest acts like "protecting themselves" by artificail bidding, what else will they do that is less than honest?
If they "want it more than a bidder, let them start at the minimum or set a reserve, like honest ppl do.
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Comments
There are many ways for honest sellers to protect themselves, ie starting bids, reserves, etc...
Its the greedy ones we have to look out for and I'm glad shill bidding is prosecutable.
but (and this is my opinion) its still up to the buyer to set their upper limit and stick to it, shill bidding or not.
My first post...updated with pics
I collect mostly moderns and I'm currently working on a US type set.
These effects have been studied for decades in auction theory
Link
But ebay has found a "useful idiot" in New York's Liberal Democrat attorney general Elliot Spitzer. Ebay can offer him free "legal and staff support" so that a few scared sh**less ebay sellers without lawyers will plead guilty to "wire fraud." Spitzer has another "populist victory" to crow about in his run for governor, and ebay has "proof" that shill bidding is a "crime."
Interesting how this will pan out since the National Auctioneers Association is about to challenge ebay on their ban of family members and employees bidding. Many states require ebay drop off stores to be licensed auctioneers. Since a real auctioneer has a legal duty to obtain the highest possible bid, which just might be from an employee, ebay's rule conflicts not only with auction ethics, but the legal relationship between auctioneer and consignor.
<< <i>While ebay tries to characterize shill bidding as a crime, in fact it is not. >>
It's a crime in Florida and most other states.
jay walking a felony also?
but i do consider it slimey, dishonest, and overall a disgusting
habit to get into.
<< <i>
<< <i>While ebay tries to characterize shill bidding as a crime, in fact it is not. >>
It's a crime in Florida and most other states. >>
Florida Statutes Where does it say "felony?" Where does it specify prison time?
Title XXXII
REGULATION OF PROFESSIONS AND OCCUPATIONS Chapter 468
MISCELLANEOUS PROFESSIONS AND OCCUPATIONS View Entire Chapter
468.389 Prohibited acts; penalties.--
(1) The following acts shall be grounds for the disciplinary activities provided in subsections (2) and (3):
(a) A violation of any law relating to trade or commerce of this state or of the state in which an auction is conducted.
(b) Misrepresentation of property for sale at auction or making false promises concerning the use, value, or condition of such property by an auctioneer or auction business or by anyone acting as an agent of or with the consent of the auctioneer or auction business.
(c) Failure to account for or to pay or return, within a reasonable time not to exceed 30 days, money or property belonging to another which has come into the control of an auctioneer or auction business through an auction.
(d) False, deceptive, misleading, or untruthful advertising.
(e) Any conduct in connection with a sales transaction which demonstrates bad faith or dishonesty.
(f) Using or permitting the use of false bidders, cappers, or shills.
(g) Making any material false statement on a license application.
(h) Commingling money or property of another person with his or her own. Every auctioneer and auction business shall maintain a separate trust or escrow account in an insured bank or savings and loan association located in this state in which shall be deposited all proceeds received for another person through an auction sale.
(i) Refusal or neglect of any auctioneer or other receiver of public moneys to pay the moneys so received into the State Treasury at the times and under the regulations prescribed by law.
(j) Violating a statute or administrative rule regulating practice under this part or a lawful disciplinary order of the board or the department.
(k) Having a license to practice a comparable profession revoked, suspended, or otherwise acted against by another state, territory, or country.
(l) Being convicted or found guilty, regardless of adjudication, of a crime in any jurisdiction which directly relates to the practice or the ability to practice the profession of auctioneering.
(2) When the board finds any person guilty of any of the prohibited acts set forth in subsection (1), it may enter an order imposing one or more of the following penalties:
(a) Refusal to certify to the department an application for licensure.
(b) Revocation or suspension of a license.
(c) Imposition of an administrative fine not to exceed $1,000 for each count or separate offense.
(d) Issuance of a reprimand.
(e) Placement of the auctioneer on probation for a period of time and subject to conditions as the board may specify, including requiring the auctioneer to successfully complete the licensure examination.
(f) Requirement that the person in violation make restitution to each consumer affected by that violation. Proof of such restitution shall be a signed and notarized release executed by the consumer or the consumer's estate.
<< <i>(f) Using or permitting the use of false bidders, cappers, or shills. >>
CRIME - A crime is a wrongdoing classified by the state or Congress as a felony or misdemeanor.
Thanks for making my point.
<< <i>If you don't like eBay's policy, sell on Teletrade. "It's not a shill bid, it's a ... uh ... 'Buyback Bid'! Yeah! That's the ticket!" >>
Don't forget that if the owner buys back his own coin he still pays the auction fees and he still hasn't sold his coin which was his original goal.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>
<< <i>If you don't like eBay's policy, sell on Teletrade. "It's not a shill bid, it's a ... uh ... 'Buyback Bid'! Yeah! That's the ticket!" >>
Don't forget that if the owner buys back his own coin he still pays the auction fees and he still hasn't sold his coin which was his original goal. >>
I believe a 'deal' could be worked if you were a frequent/big dollar consignor.
<< <i>
<< <i>(f) Using or permitting the use of false bidders, cappers, or shills. >>
CRIME - A crime is a wrongdoing classified by the state or Congress as a felony or misdemeanor.
Thanks for making my point. >>
You're really that clueless, aren't you?
Learn to spell the word "some".
This "smoe" chit is getting old.
It makes you look dumb as hell as well.
Ray
<< <i>Florida Statutes Where does it say "felony?" Where does it specify prison time? >>
Neither of those is required for it to be classified as a crime.
roadrunner
Eventually those kind of dealers will go broke paying eBay seller fees on coins that they don't sell.
What is the bigger crime in numismatic auctions? In my mind it is the practice of offering overgraded slabbed junk coins to unknowlegeable bidders. Now if you combine overgraded crap TPG coins AND shill bidders - NOW THAT is a super big rip-off situation for sure.
This whole discussion is ridiculous. When you participate in the eBay (or PayPal) venues, it is a TOS
(term of service) that you agree to play by their rules. This is the same term of service that you
agree with when establishing an account there. The default choice is that you agree to abide by their
rules, whether you personally like them or not.
It matters not one bit what a particular state (or country) has on its books, law-wise. Unless a competent
authority orders eBay (or PayPal) to change procedures, they can establish whatever rules that they choose
to. Those who choose to participate in the venue will abide by them, or risk losing their accounts...
No duh - what an awesome concept.
There are alternatives - it is a personal choice you make. You can sell from your web site (if you can get
people to visit there), sell on "Johnny's wannabe super auction site with no buyers," sell through ads in
trade newspapers or magazines, have a brick and mortar, etc.
Bottom line, as always concerning on-line venues, is to play by the rules, or not play at all.
John
SFC, US Army (Ret.) 1974-1994
Ever negotiate a coin sale with a major auction house? One of the key terms relates to seller buy-backs.
The only way to fall victim to a shill bidder is to enter into a bidding war. While its true that I might have won the lot at a lower price were it not for fake bids, rest assured the bid I entered in the first place is probably under the coins fair market value. You win some, you lose most, but when you do win......... well you know the feeling.
<< <i>Ever negotiate a coin sale with a major auction house? One of the key terms relates to seller buy-backs. >>
Placing a reserve on a coin is NOT the same as shill bidding, legally or ethically.
<< <i>
<< <i>Ever negotiate a coin sale with a major auction house? One of the key terms relates to seller buy-backs. >>
Placing a reserve on a coin is NOT the same as shill bidding, legally or ethically. >>
Hi Mark:
Bingo. Especially when talking about playing in the eBay sandbox. When you get into this area, it opens
a clear can of worms, i.e., deliberate fee avoidance, not to mention the ethical issues involved with turning
a pure auction into a deception.
John
SFC, US Army (Ret.) 1974-1994
<< <i>When you participate in the eBay (or PayPal) venues, it is a TOS
(term of service) that you agree to play by their rules. >>
Yep. Any argument to the contrary; any whining or complaining; any drum beating is nothing more than pissing in to the wind.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>
Bottom line, as always concerning on-line venues, is to play by the rules, or not play at all.
John >>
I don't think anyone disagrees with that. But they can't have an "in house" rule and send people
to prison for violating it.
<< <i>Never mind the shill bidding.
Learn to spell the word "some".
This "smoe" chit is getting old.
It makes you look dumb as hell as well.
Ray >>
<< <i>But they can't have an "in house" rule and send people
to prison for violating it.
>>
Where do you get your info that shill bidding is not a crime?????
There is plenty of case law to suggest otherwise.
If you are willing to bid above and beyond the value of something, who do you blame?
If someone puts a coin up that is valued at $300.00 and has a friend put a bid on it for $350.00,
and keeps bidding it up, and you bid $405.00 and get it who is to blame?
This shill bidding whining is just that whining!
<< <i>
Where do you get your info that shill bidding is not a crime?????
There is plenty of case law to suggest otherwise. >>
Since ebay defines shill bidding as a bid placed on behalf of the buyer, BUT these bids are allowed in virtually
all auctions (unless expressly listed as an ABSOLUTE auction) , there can clearly be no criminal penalties for what is
a "terms of sale" rule. Someone could sue for damages if it were proven that a loss occured, but that would be
a civil matter -- not a crime. Since shill bidding and a reserve have EXACTLY THE SAME EFFECT as far as the bidder
is concerned, simply bidding your maximum will ensure that you get the item, providing you have exceeded the
minimum that the buyer will accept. If the terms of an auction prohibit the owner from participating, but the owner
does anyway, the auctioneer COULD be liable if he was aware of the misrepresentation. Again, NOT a criminal
matter.
The whole aspect of using the derogatory term "shill" for a "buyback" bid is for ebay to maximize its profits,
and attempt to use the legal system to enforce its own house rules. The owner ALWAYS has the right to determine
what price he is willing to sell his property. Whether you call it a shill, a buyback bid, a minimum bid, a reserve, a
book bid, a bid from an agent on behalf of the buyer, friends covering each other...it's NO DIFFERENCE. None of these
devices have ANY EFFECT to either cause a bidder to "pay more than they should."
<< <i>Placing a reserve on a coin is NOT the same as shill bidding, legally or ethically. >>
So how does an owner manually increasing his buyback bid (as permitted in Teletrade, Stack's, Heritage, etc) differ from
a computer automatically topping your bid up to a reserve???
<< <i>the ethical issues involved with turning a pure auction into a deception.
John >>
The only PURE AUCTIONS are those that have no minimums, no reserve, no participation by the owner. As long as
an owner can have ANY SAY in the final price...by setting a reserve, or a minimum, it is no longer a PURE AUCTION.
Just my opinion....
K
<< <i> If one considers it OK to use a shill bidder, you should state in the auction that you reserve the right to use a shill bidder to run up the hammer price to a value you deem acceptable. See how far that gets ya!
Just my opinion....
K >>
Basically, that's what the fine print of real auction terms say.
Link
The Santa Fe Art Auction or its consignors may implement such reserve by opening the bidding or they or either of them may bid up to the amount of the reserve, by placing successive or consecutive bids for a lot, or bids in response to other bidders. In instances where the Santa Fe Art Auction has an interest in the lot, it may bid up to the reserve to protect such interest. The Santa Fe Art Auction, or its consignors, may also bid upon other property listed in this catalogue.
book bid, a bid from an agent on behalf of the buyer, friends covering each other...it's NO DIFFERENCE. None of these
devices have ANY EFFECT to either cause a bidder to "pay more than they should.">>
Yes, the winning bidder might pay the same either way. However, in the case of a reserve on Ebay, it is made known to bidders, who, with that knowledge, can choose to bid or not. Shilling, on the oher hand, is not known to the bidders, who often unknowingly bid agianst the shill(s). Under these circumstances, a reserve is up-front/honest, while a shill is deceitful/dishonest. Some people don't care about such distinctions, but many others do.
Edited to add: Often, a reserve is set BEFORE the auction/listing begins, whereas a shill can operate DURING the entire listing time period, with far more flexibility. So, in many instances, a shill can make a high bidder pay more than a reserve bid would have.
<< <i> Often, a reserve is set BEFORE the auction/listing begins, whereas a shill can operate DURING the entire listing time period, with far more flexibility. So, in many instances, a shill can make a high bidder pay more than a reserve bid would have. >>
Or less.
Perhaps gold drops $50 in a day. A consignor using buyback bids would reduce his expectations by an
appropriate amount, preventing a bidder from paying too much.
<< <i>The seller also reserves the right to end the auction at any time on Ebay correct? Is that the case with the major auction houses? Can you pull an item off the bidding floor before the hammer falls? >>
A seller can surely do this on eBay, at any time, even after the auction is completed. Not saying that I agree with
doing it after completion, but it is done all of the time, without penalty.
John
SFC, US Army (Ret.) 1974-1994
Assistant U.S. Attorney Christopher Sonderby also said he feels the guilty pleas "send a message."
"Shill bidding on Internet auctions is not a game; it's a felony," Sonderby said.
>>>>
It is right here in this link.
http://news.com.com/2100-1017-255959.html">Shill bidding a felony according to US attorney
But Frank says it isn't a felony. Who should I believe? Gee that's a tough choice...
1. ebay doesn't send ANYONE to prison, ever.
2. If you remain on my property after I ask you to leave, you are violating my rule. You are also violating a law. Violation of a rule in a private establishment can also be a violation of a law. The two are not mutually exclusive.
3. Shill bidding on ebay requires the use of a wire. Shill bidding on ebay (since buybacks or seller bids are not allowed in any form) is fraud. Shill bidding on ebay is wire fraud.
4. You won't find a statute that says "shill bidding" because they don't have to say what type of fraud one commits, it can be accomplished by many different means.
Murder is an easy example for analogy: If a statute had to list all the different ways of killing someone, then whenever someone came up with a new way of killing someone, they would get off on the technicality that the law didn't say that this particular way of killing someone was murder.
Murder is the unlawful killing of one human being by another.
You can poison, shoot, stab, hang, push them under a bus, whatever. Make up a new way to kill and you still don't get off.
Fraud is the same. Commit fraud using a wire and it is wire fraud.
Shill bidding (on ebay) is one such fraud. Several people are in jail for it now. If it wasn't a felony, the sentence, as well as the conviction, could not stand. It would not have survived a motion to dismiss before trial or the plea.
<< <i>It's a fact of life.
Ever negotiate a coin sale with a major auction house? One of the key terms relates to seller buy-backs. >>
But not at ebay.
That means buybacks on ebay are fraud because it is not stated that there are buybacks.
There is a reserve option or start at what you want, if you don't want to start at a buck and take the high bid, so there is no need to shill or buyback on ebay.
Fraud + wire= wire fraud. Federal felony punishible by up to 5 years in prison and $250,000 fine per count. I guess NY only gives you a max of four years, class D felony per count, and like $5000 fine plus restitution.
Hey, you are a lawyer, it isn't too hard to figure out that car thefts are a fact of life... Doesn't make car theft legal, does it?
And, just because they don't get all gung ho about prosecuting joy rides or online shill bidding in many jurisdictions doesn't mean it is legal, does it?
In an auction where it is noted that buybacks are allowed, then it is legal.
In a forced sale, or where proper notice is given that sellers are allowed to bid, it is legal.
On ebay, only criminals bid on their own items, except for those auctions where it is allowed. It is a crime at Federal law, therefore a crime in any US state or territory.... Texas included.
There are honest ways to protect yourself; reserves, starting price. And then you could end early and keep it... which is dishonest, but less dishonest than shilling.
<< <i>
Assistant U.S. Attorney Christopher Sonderby also said he feels the guilty pleas "send a message."
"Shill bidding on Internet auctions is not a game; it's a felony," Sonderby said.
>>>>
It is right here in this link.
http://news.com.com/2100-1017-255959.html">Shill bidding a felony according to US attorney
But Frank says it isn't a felony. Who should I believe? Gee that's a tough choice... >>
Too bad they pled guilty. They needed a better lawyer.
Thousands of people are in American prison because they pled guilty for non-existant crimes.
Google ACLU Tulia
<< <i>
Too bad they pled guilty. They needed a better lawyer familiar with auction law. >>
Woosh!
<< <i>Fraud is the same. Commit fraud using a wire and it is wire fraud.
Shill bidding (on ebay) is one such fraud. Several people are in jail for it now. If it wasn't a felony, the sentence, as well as the conviction, could not stand. It would not have survived a motion to dismiss before trial or the plea. >>
Read the Rest of the Story at the bottom of the page
Here
<< Fraud is the same. Commit fraud using a wire and it is wire fraud.
Shill bidding (on ebay) is one such fraud. Several people are in jail for it now. If it wasn't a felony, the sentence, as well as the conviction, could not stand. It would not have survived a motion to dismiss before trial or the plea. >>
Read the Rest of the Story at the bottom of the page
Here "
Yes, I see, a criminal prosecution that was dismissed, WITHOUT PREJUDICE.
No reason for dismissal shown. Charges may be brought again.
Doesn't prove what you hope it proves.
Woosh, again...
In August of 2002, all charges against the three were dismissed without prejudice.
I have read several times on the board that people get irritated when someone sets a reserve on their auction, they always say "let the buyers set the market". then you have the guys who set no reserve, and then when the item sells for a loss, everyone chimes in and says "you should have set a reserve". Having been burned several times by starting at .99, I completely see the need to allow a buy-back bid.
Anyone sent to jail/prison because they committed shill bidding on ebay, thats just plain stupid, waste of money by the taxpayers. Yeah, i can just see the jury deliberating over that one. "The guy bid the item up $10, lets fry him".
I would think anyone who supported that kind of stupidity would be first in line at a pro zero tolerance rally. But see, thats rational thinking, not knee jerk reactionism.
Whoosh
JMHO