Is a FS coin always an FS? David Hall says "no" on the Q&A forum

BlindedByEgo

For those who don't often look at the Q&A forum with DH, the first answer in the most recent postings confuses me. The context is that a Jefferson Nickel has been bouncing back and forth at PCGS through submissions and resubmissions, either as a MS65FS or an MS66 no FS.

Mr. Hall's answer:

"Sounds like the coin is right on the "full step" line.

I might also be on the 65/66 line.

The grades actaully make sense if you think about it.

Thanks,

David"

Here's my confusion - is the FS designation independent of the grade? Should it be, like FSB on Winged Liberty Dimes - the band is fully split, or not? Or does market grading on this coin couple with PCGS risk aversion to the increase in the cost of the grading guarantee?

I just don't understand - any of you modern coin market makers care to enlighten me or straighten me out? I've thought about it and it makes no sense to this hack wannabe

my3cents

FS is FS - so what....when it went to 66 it lost a step????? Seems wierd to me

wondercoin

Analogous situation for coins that have great eye appeal but the slightest of rub and get grades of MS62 - MS64 from the grading companies.

Imagine a coin that looks great for the MS65 grade, but has ever so slighly near miss Full steps to bordering on just barely made it steps. Choices of grade - MS66 - rewards overall strike on the coin with the bump to MS66 to account for the great "near miss" steps. Or, give it the MS65FS grade forgiving a bit on the steps because the overall quality of the coin is so nice? While this is a generous thing to do because MS65FS tends to be worth more than MS66, I prefer the straight MS66 grade alternative to keep the standard consistent on what it takes to obtain FS. But, in this scenario, MS66FS as a grading choice is often a coin with poor, marginal FS and low end for the grade - another "maxed out" coin that gets shipped right off to auction often times, where collectors tend to overpay and overlook problems far more often than when a dealer provides such an example. This comment is no reflection on the particular coin in question which I have never examined, but, a generalization of what happens out there every day. Submit and resubmit for the (1) day the coin gets maxed out. Unfortunately, there are a great deal of marginalquality slabbed Jeffs out there. Wondercoin.

construct

So, wondercoin, one day is this nickel's lucky day and it gets graders in a mood good enough to bump its marginal status up to both 66 and FS. So, it's maxed out. Shouldn't every coin submitted to a grading service be maxed out, at least theoretically? And minned (What's the opposite of "maxed"? ) out, too? I'm afraid I have to agree with BlindedbyEgo, that it's either FS or it's not; it's either 66 or 65. These designations should be independant.

Frankcoins

It makes sense if you look at the price points.

DRG

Wondercoin has the REALITY of this pegged. Yes, it SHOULD be independent, but there are liner coins and this is what happens to them.

I have seen the same thing with SMS coins from 1965-67. They either grade MS66CAM or MS67 (no cameo). If they are a nearly full cameo 66 they get the bump to 67 OR stay 66 with the cameo NOT BOTH.

However, as I wrote once before, "The Peter Principle" applies perfectly to graded coins. Once they achieve a place they do not belong....They stay there! Until then they will be put up for promotion indefinitely.

Steve27

Looks like a good argument for dropping the FS designation and just including it as part of the grade.

LeeG

I believe DH also gave the answer to your question in his Q & A. The coin is given a grade then it's determined if it meets the particular designation criteria.

Steve

Mitch explains the PCGS grading and designation process very well. My take on these things is:

IT IS ALL ABOUT THE MONEY!!!!!

Steve

RBinTex

Histogram:

--- MS65 ........
MS65FS .................................................................
--- MS66 ................................................
MS66FS ..

Noitice how many dots (i.e. grading fees/submissions) it would take to get it "right" twice.

Yes, Mitch's take is probably spot on but "it's all about the money" can't be discounted completely (can it? )

seanq

Wondercoin pretty much nailed it in his reply. I've always thought the registries played a part in this, too. A FS nickel will get at least a two-point bonus when the set rating is computed. On a borderline FS coin, bumping the numeric grade one point instead of giving the designation is a way of giving "half credit" for the step detail. For example, your MS64FS coin would be worth 66 points when the overall set is rated, but if it just misses FS it's worth more than a 64 so it gets bumped to MS65.

The real fun comes next. If the coin that started this thread ends un in a 66 holder, you can send it in for a designation review. If the steps are that close to full, you have a decent shot of getting the FS added, so the coin that PCGS agonized over calling a 65FS is now in a 66FS holder. Lather, rinse, profit, repeat. There was a thread earlier this week about a coin on David Lawrence's site that I think followed this exact path into a 66FS holder.

I don't know how to fix it, but until it's resolved I think you will see more and more maxxed-out coins in FS holders.


Sean Reynolds

segoja

Same thing applies to copper. Many coins will grade 65RB or 64RD. Same coin.

I agree with the balance of the borrd, either the superlative designation is there or it's not. It certainly makes it tough on collectors to determine what makes FS, FB or CAM. But so goes the market.

wondercoin

"Yes, Mitch's take is probably spot on but "it's all about the money" can't be discounted completely (can it? )"

No question, it's all about the money - certainly to the submittor. A dealer out there once told me to keep in mind that there are only (2) types of coins out there - totally maxed out coins and coins that will soon be.

Consider this nickel:

MS65FS - Around a $500 coin or so

MS66 - Around a few hundred dollars

MS66FS - WILD AUCTION FRENZY COIN - $3,500, $4,500, $5,000 - WHO KNOWS WHERE IT WILL END.

So, how many $10 designation review tries is it worth to try to get the coin from MS66 to MS66FS? $10 to make $4,000 - that's a 400 to 1 return. 50 submissions would still be roughly a 7-1 return after fees. 100 tries would still be 3 to 1 odds in your favor if it worked. Do you think the graders in charge of designations at PCGS might even begin to feel "sorry" for you on the 78th submission try?

Wondercoin

DennisH

That a coin is bouncing back and forth between 65FS and 66 non-FS isn't really that much of a surprise, is it?

It would seem that while it is obviously a very nice piece, both in terms of eye appeal, technical merit, and strike, it has yet to convince the graders that it is an exceptional piece that deserves the 66FS grade. Whether it's Jeffersons or any other series, there are plenty of coins that straddle this line. Persistence gets some of them over the hump.

If this was a slot machine experience, I'd say that you've been regularly getting two of the three cherries to come up together. Since you've seen them all at one time or another, though, it's probably only a matter of time before you get all three to line up.

If it was my coin, I'd absolutely stop cracking it out. I'd send it in for variety review instead. It's not only cheaper, but there's a LOT less risk of it being damaged in the process.

Good luck!

cladking

These all look like great arguments to grade each aspect of a coin rather than give them an overall grade.

This coin's a MS-65 on the marking and an MS-69 on the steps. If we knew a grade for the strike, die condition, etc then we'd actually know what the coin looks like.

BlindedByEgo

<< <i>It makes sense if you look at the price points. >>



Bingo! Market grading - sell the holder, not the coin. C'mon, a coin is FS or not. At least MS65 and MS66 are smoewhat subjective

Also, is FS really a "superlative"? IMO it should be a statement of fact. You want a superlative, use a "*" or "PQ".

ziggy29

Sounds like "market grading" isn't just for PQ choice AU coins any more.

ABC123

Just another example of PCGS not wanting to make a firm decision---you would think the fate of the world hangs on their every designation. They are confused as the rest of us---yet you let them have the final world. Ultimately, just another PCGS blunder !

michael

grading is subjective

and you already know the grade and designation of the particular coin

you just want pcgs to price it for you

you lost this time

dont blame the game

just the player

if you broke this particular coinm out of its respective holder what is its current market value as compaired to in the holder?? 80% 50% 40% 10% 5% or.............................


this is where the coin will eventually wind up when this current plastic pricing craze abruptly ends

in 2 years?? 3years 5 years??????

if you look at a coin and buy it with discretionary funds

ask yourself what is this coin worth out of its respective holder?

if the difference is not close to the same


then let the buyer beware

DHeath

It took me a few submissions to understand this, but for PCGS to put a coin in a $1,000 holder, it has to be a $1,000 coin. I don't think that's a bad idea. It doesn't mean the coin in the $100 holder isn't a technical so and so, it just means the coin isn't clearly superior to the other $100 coins. All the conversation about the 100 point scale was directed toward this gap in dollars. Once in awhile, somebody slips a $100 coin into a $1000 holder, but not very often. No one (graders included) has to be too picky about $100 holders. JMO, but it serves me well when I buy or submit.

ColonialCoinUnion

I read the Q&A post and I wasn't surprised by the grade history of the coin in question based on my experiences with other coins.

And I thought it was good that DH posted it his response openly in the Q&A for all to see -

Coin grading is not a science that yields perfectly predictable and consistent results and so perhaps the 'double-liner' response is appropriate.

I would expect this coin to reside in a 66FS holder one day though -

Russ

<< <i>I have seen the same thing with SMS coins from 1965-67. They either grade MS66CAM or MS67 (no cameo). If they are a nearly full cameo 66 they get the bump to 67 OR stay 66 with the cameo NOT BOTH. >>



Ditto. I've seen it many times. Same applies to liner DCAMs. Either gets the designation at the correct technical grade, or no designation and a point bump.

Russ, NCNE

BlindedByEgo

<< <i>It took me a few submissions to understand this, but for PCGS to put a coin in a $1,000 holder, it has to be a $1,000 coin. I don't think that's a bad idea. It doesn't mean the coin in the $100 holder isn't a technical so and so, it just means the coin isn't clearly superior to the other $100 coins. All the conversation about the 100 point scale was directed toward this gap in dollars. Once in awhile, somebody slips a $100 coin into a $1000 holder, but not very often. No one (graders included) has to be too picky about $100 holders. JMO, but it serves me well when I buy or submit. >>



A very good point. Truly, buying the coin and not the plastic.

The problem is, in an individual graders knowledge base (or in a small group of graders) the determination of a "$1000 coin" may be based on an incomplete sample of what other coins are out there. They can only compare it to other $1000 and $100 coins that they have themselves seen.

Thanks for all of the valuable input. For me, the subject is a little like asking how many angels can dance on the end of a pin; since I don't have a horse in this race nor really participate in coin arbitrage, it's purely hypothetical for me.

bushmaster8

<< <i>

<< <i>I have seen the same thing with SMS coins from 1965-67. They either grade MS66CAM or MS67 (no cameo). If they are a nearly full cameo 66 they get the bump to 67 OR stay 66 with the cameo NOT BOTH. >>



Ditto. I've seen it many times. Same applies to liner DCAMs. Either gets the designation at the correct technical grade, or no designation and a point bump.

Russ, NCNE >>



Same dang thing happens with other strike designations as well. I see it with FBL/ non FBL Franklins all the time.

larrynj

it's either full steps or it's not. it can be weak at areas of the steps, but 5 incuse lines are either there (fs) or the coin has a bridge. break or nick in any of those 5 lines, taking it out of the fs designation. any different, and it's due for a designation review.

the grade is an opinion and i understand how it may vary. this is how market grading can keep a coin out of the big buck ballpark.

cladking

<< <i>it's either full steps or it's not. it can be weak at areas of the steps, but 5 incuse lines are either there (fs) or the coin has a bridge. break or nick in any of those 5 lines, taking it out of the fs designation. any different, and it's due for a designation review.
. >>



This isn't really true. There is a continuum from a bridge to a definite line. There are those which can go either way.

leothelyon

Sounds like the coin is right on the "full step" line. It might also be on the 65/66 line. The grades actually make sense if you think about it. Thanks, David

Sounds like the coin has problems in the strike, focal areas and steps to receive a MS66FS grade! If one or more of these areas are lacking in the quality that's needed for a MS66FS grade, as for this example, the FS designation is weighing more towards the overall strike and quality of the coin than one of lesser quality that received the FS designation for full steps. It does make sense to designate a MS65 coin with a FS designation as long as it doesn't represent a pop top coin. Because the quality really isn't there for a higher MS66FS grade. How this reasoning is applied to the many other dates that suffer in the strike and quality must fluctuate with the pops.
Sure, it may have something to do with the points and money but if the coin is all there, I don't believe PCGs would hold such a coin back from receiving it's rightful grade. But as Mitch has said, there are many marginal quality slabbed Jeffs out there and I'll add that number is very high in many of the registry sets.
And many of us have heard or experinced the horror stories on how some coins suddenly upgrade right after they're sold! Personally, if the quality is all there, the strike, steps and all, then just sit on it or sell it as a high quality coin. Serious collectors will know what you got and pay respectfully for it's quality whether it's FS or not! At least, this is how I see it and sell my coins!

Leo