Need your help - Walter Johnson Signed Ford Frick National League Baseball *Pictures Added*

FatMan

Let me begin by saying that I know very little about sports memorabilia. I've been around the CU forums for a long time as a coin collector but this is my first journey into your corner of the world.

My wife and I were going through years of accumulated junk last weekend cause we are planning on moving after living 20 years in the same house. We opened an old trunk filled with stuff that belonged to my mother-in-law who passed away about 13 years ago. Lots of very old junk that is most likely worthless. But buried in the junk we found a Walter Johnson signed baseball that must have belonged to her father or grandfather. The ball is in what appears to be the original Spalding Official National League Baseball box. The ball is from the Frick era which after a little research I have learned was 1934-1951. I have no clue to the exact date.

The signature is clear and the ball is in remarkable shape. So what should I do? I have no reason to suspect it is not authentic but I have no experience to say it is. Is this something that needs to be sent to PSA/DNA? Will that make the ball more saleable like it does with coins? And if it is valuable (which my research suggests it may be), what auction company would you recommend. As a coin collector I am very familar with Heritage but aren't they the new kid on the block with memorabilia? The ball is currently not for sale so no need to PM with offers. Right now I am seeking information and your expertise.

Thanks

VintageJeff

Sending to PSA/DNA would be a must IMO and I would prob sell it in MASTRO or SUPERIOR if you are looking for an auction house.

schr1st

Agreed. Whatever the authentication cost would easily be recovered in the sale of the ball. Is it a single signed ball (IE: no other signatures on it)?

In any case, until it is certified, keep the ball in a dark place (closet, non-lighted safe, etc.). Heritage wouldn't be a bad choice, but you'd probably do better with Mastro (link available in the upper right hand corner of this page). Congrats on the find!

originalisbest

MastroNet would be a good choice FatMan, and authenticating would be a must. Man, coins like you have, and now this for a find? Congrats! And good luck on the move.

ToppsCo1lector

First off, great find!! I would send it in to either PSA/DNA or JSA(James Spence Authenticator) both are the top in the authenticating industry. To sell it, hmmm that is a bit tougher. Mastro has a great reputation but also selling it at a Sports auction at a brick and mortar auction house would serve you well. A lot of collectors have deep pockets, and at a live auction there is always a possibility of a bidding war for a piece of memorabilia like that. But first and foremost, get it authenticated. If you can, get a picture of it and post it up, I'd like to take a looksy.

RichG

I agree with the others. Without a Doubt, I would send it to PSA/DNA.
Congrads on a GREAT find.
Rich

FatMan

Thanks for all the comments. Do you need to submit through a dealer or can I submit directly. I submit directly to PCGS as I have a Collectors Club Membership. Does that work for all CU companies?

In answer to one of the questions above, it is a single signature.

Here are some pics. If it is authentic, any guesses as to its worth. With coins original packaging adds value. Is the box worth anything? Thanks again for your sage advice. Its a bit strange for me as over in the US Coin forum I am the one usually giving advice. Now I know what the newbies feel like.

Southerncards

Johnson died in '46. You might want to contact Spaulding and ask about when that box was issued. Sometimes they change boxes every few years. The sig looks fairly legit to me from the scan but I would have to look at it closer to be sure. The J in Johnson is broken whereas earlier examples like from the late 30's showed a more constant flowing signature. I have seen legit Johnsons with various J's so that doesnt worry me. I would absolutely send it to JSA for authentication. Johnson wasnt a tough auto but he is on many collectors lists. Good Luck!

Jim

ToppsCo1lector

It might increase the value by much; but having the baseballs original box there add visual value. Just like any early 1900s collectible, the box adds value even in this case where the box just was for a baseball. From JSA it will set you back 150 to get it authenticated w a/Letter of Authenticity. Check out his website. Awesome Awesome auto though "Coin"man; if it's authentic(Hey, I'm a lil young) it's d@mn near perfect, right on the sweetspot, little to no fading of the sig, clean ball. An amazing piece!



JSA Link


BTW-I don't know if your PCGS membership will work, maybe you should shoot an email to a mod on CU?

airjoedan

In all honesty, with proper authentication, you're probably looking at a minimum of $3,000-$4,000....with even higher possibilities. I would look at consigning through R & R Auctions or even ebay.... both have been doing great lately with the deceased HOF autographs. I'm fairly confident that that is real, judging by "W" and "J"...most secretarial and clubhouse signatures seem to differ drastically in those two letters. Walter Johnson's grandson is the foremost expert on authenticating his autographs....he recently identified the Johnson autograph on the $80,000 Upper Deck Quad Cut a forgery. With little search on the internet, you should be able to find his authentication website. Also, PSA or JSA would be a great choice......both are common authenticators for the major auctionhouses. By the way, beautiful autograph. I wish I would find something that expensive laying around in an unlikely place. I was speaking to a lady at work last week about autographs and she mentioned she had an Edgar Allan Poe autograph that was given to her back in the 1970's. She was quite suprised when I informed her Poe is one of the rarest and most desirable literary autographs to have.......and even more suprised to find out her autograph was worth, at a minimum estimate, $20,000. One sold a few weeks ago for $48,000 in a brief letter in R & R's auctions (like I said, they have been great in selling vintage autographs lately). Anyways, great autograph....great find. Thanks for sharing.


- Joe

jimq112

Here's a link to a well respected autograph expert, Richard Simon, Richard Simon Sports his authentication will get you at least as much as psa/dna will. It's hard to tell from a scan and I'm certainly not an expert on Walter Johnson, but I've never seen a legit Johnson auto with the "r" turned up like that. I've seen a few good ones and they all kind of dropped down to the right.

The other thing that doesn't seem right is the ford frick NL ball. If Johnson was always an AL player, why a single signed NL ball?

If the ball is legit it's beautiful, I don't know if I could ever sell it. As was said above make sure it's in a nice climate controlled area and out of the sunlight!

Good luck with it, I hope it's a real one!!

FatMan

<< <i>The other thing that doesn't seem right is the ford frick NL ball. If Johnson was always an AL player, why a single signed NL ball? >>

I thought that was a bit odd as well. But then again, it would be a pretty dumb ball to use for a forgery. I think the forgers are smarter than that.

Thanks for picking up on that inconsistency.

Southerncards

The difference in the NL vs. AL ball is not an issue with a sig of that stature. Could have been that a fan was in an NL park hoping for sigs when they spotted Johnson sitting in the stands. Would you have him sign your mustard stained napkin or an official ball? Back then, no cared what ball was signed, it was merely a signed ball for display purposes.

FatMan

Just got done reading the PSA/DNA website. I understand Authentication with LOA and COA. But what is Baseball Grading? Based upon the image would this service be worthwhile? I see I can have both done at the same time for $200 which makes the grading fee only $50.

onlyanumber

Actually, that box and spalding trademark are tell tale signs to the age of the ball. The ball/box combo is definitely from the 1938-45 era. Possibly even a little older. I believe the box was changed in late 1945 and the spalding trademark was updated to a different design in 1946. They definitely place the age of the ball in the range when Walter Johnson was alive.

I also have seen a few Johnson autos and from the scan, the J looks really good.

SportsModerator

Could have been from an old timers social event, or a plain request sent in by a fan after his retirement. If genuine, it is VERY valuable, low 5 figure time. Needless to say, handle with care preferably with gloves, and authentication can be ascertained through PSA/DNA. Check this site for details

FatMan

<< <i>If genuine, it is VERY valuable, low 5 figure time. >>

Hey SM1...now you have my attention.

That certainly answers the question as to whether it is worth it to get authenticated. I am guessing but I assume the reason for keeping in the dark is to keep the ball and ink from fading. But once it is authenticated is there some kind of holder that will protect it so it can be displayed?

I really can't sell it at this time due to tax issues. I need to wait a few years for when my income will only be a quarter of what it is today so I might as well enjoy it as I own it.

baseballfanatic

Five figures is definately more like it. Single signed Johnson balls (on the sweet spot no less) are as rare as hens teeth. The only distraction for a TOP dollar ball is the green ink, but as rare as they come up, someone will be willing to break the bank (since it would display so well with a green ink Cobb)..........

originalisbest

It's a beautiful ball. Hope it comes out a no-questions genuine for you - as to the best holder, ask sm1 etc - I haven't any valuable leather spheres such as that so I can't advise as to storage.

Still, you should be fine following the basics, much th' same as coins - archival materials (acrylic holder), stable temperature and humidity (don't stick it in the musty basement or the hot attic) and keep in a dark area, no light exposure - when you ain't peerin' at it.


Great find, again!

originalisbest

Green ink was also the "signature" choice of Leo Burnett. Just thought I'd add to the factoids you didn't need to know of today.

dizzyfoxx

IMHO, if that ball doesn't pass muster at PSA/DNA...
I would say based on the ball and sig themselves it's a "no doubter". Now throw in the box and known provenance, it's as rock solid as a solid rock.

Griffins

I vote you consign it to Mastro and let them take care of authentication.

edited to add- you should also negotiate little or no sellers commission- 5% max.

jad22

The story seems to match. The condition of the signature doesn't match the condition of the ball. Should green fade that much?

dizzyfoxx

<< <i>The story seems to match. The condition of the signature doesn't match the condition of the ball. Should green fade that much? >>



The quality of the pen and/or ink in the 1930's or early '40's? That doesn't bother me at all. The ball is amazing and I'd love to own it.

FatMan

Although the image suggests this is green ink, it looks more like faded blue in hand.

I have emailed Spalding the images to see if they can date the ball. I've also emailed PSA/DNA to find out if I need any kind of membership to submit directly or for names of local dealers I can submit through.

I'm now kicking myself because several weeks ago when going through some old papers that belonged to my mother-in-law my wife showed me a newspaper clipping on the opening of the Hall of Fame in Cooperstown that she found in an envelope. I believe it was a Cooperstown paper. It was the only clipping in there. I saw no value in it as there was no notes so we threw it out. Makes me wonder if there is a connection between the ball and the opening of Cooperstown?

RYK

Now, that ranks way high on the FatMan Coolness Scale™.

ToppsCo1lector

<< <i>Although the image suggests this is green ink, it looks more like faded blue in hand.

I have emailed Spalding the images to see if they can date the ball. I've also emailed PSA/DNA to find out if I need any kind of membership to submit directly or for names of local dealers I can submit through.

I'm now kicking myself because several weeks ago when going through some old papers that belonged to my mother-in-law my wife showed me a newspaper clipping on the opening of the Hall of Fame in Cooperstown that she found in an envelope. I believe it was a Cooperstown paper. It was the only clipping in there. I saw no value in it as there was no notes so we threw it out. Makes me wonder if there is a connection between the ball and the opening of Cooperstown? >>



"Coin"Man...If you find yourself about to throw out some old baseball stuff. LMK! Instead of throwing it away....Well one mans trash is anothers treasure!

dizzyfoxx

<< <i>Although the image suggests this is green ink, it looks more like faded blue in hand.

I have emailed Spalding the images to see if they can date the ball. I've also emailed PSA/DNA to find out if I need any kind of membership to submit directly or for names of local dealers I can submit through.

I'm now kicking myself because several weeks ago when going through some old papers that belonged to my mother-in-law my wife showed me a newspaper clipping on the opening of the Hall of Fame in Cooperstown that she found in an envelope. I believe it was a Cooperstown paper. It was the only clipping in there. I saw no value in it as there was no notes so we threw it out. Makes me wonder if there is a connection between the ball and the opening of Cooperstown? >>



Fats, my "gut" says YES, there is a connection.

FatMan

The more research I do the more questions I have.

I couldn't find any free online price guides for stuff like this so I upgraded my CU membership to include PSA Pop Report and SMG(?) Price guide. I am quite familar with the inaccuracy of the PCGS Price Guide. So how accurate is this SMG Price Guide.

One of the price guides is for graded baseballs. Can anyone venture a guess as to what this might grade? (I know, like coins you can't grade from images, but I'm looking for a general range.

Does anyone know a knowledgeable and trustworthy dealer in the Atlanta area?

onlyanumber

Not sure what it will grade, but in the right auction with the right write-up that ball will get the exposure and high price that it should.

baseballfanatic

<< <i>I vote you consign it to Mastro and let them take care of authentication.

edited to add- you should also negotiate little or no sellers commission- 5% max. >>




If you are looking to sell the ball, this by far makes the most sense. You would get top dollar. Plus, appearing in a Mastros auction means unquestionable authenticity (although we have all heard a couple of horror stories) which means that bidders will bid as such. They would probably have either Mike Gutierrez, Spence or PSA give the ball a thumbs up, rather than having it assigned a grade (unless it would garner a 9 or 10 and be touted as "the finest Walter Johnson single signed ball"). I believe that the "finest Ty Cobb" ball just garnered 50,000+, so that is definately the way to go. Consign the ball, and sit back and wait to cash your check.....

FatMan

So far I am 0 for 2 with my contacts. Spalding says they no longer have historical archives so they can not date the ball or box. They suggested I contact the Hall of Fame.

And it has been 4 business days since I emailed PSA/DNA to find out if I need a membership to submit with no reply. Off to a coin show tomorrow (GNA Show) and am taking the ball with me. There are always some guys who deal in both coins and memorabilia so maybe I will get some answers. I visited a local PSA dealer and he said he thought I could submit myself. I asked if he would do it but he said PSA/DNA was a pain and he only submitted cards to PSA. If I still have no good answers after the show I guess I will break down and call on Monday. But I am leary of answers over the phone. I really prefer answer by email where I have it in writing.

Southerncards

You should really use JSA

FatMan

<< <i>You should really use JSA >>

Tell me more. I know nothing about this.

zef204

<< <i>

<< <i>You should really use JSA >>

Tell me more. I know nothing about this. >>

It was mentioned earlier in the thread. James Spence Authentication

BTW, nice ball!

calleocho

PSA/dna recently launched a registry for signed baseballs...your ball if authentic would be a big ticket for those sets.

If you just want to sell it with out any hassles ...just contact Mastro and they will take care of everything.