I guess I would be surprised if his clients (Southern Gold Collectors) where that concerned with the grades the coins received from PCGS/NGC.....
My assumption, which might be incorrect, is that those coins, (C, D & O) where collected by old style numismatists and not people that care about the grades given to them by PCGS.....
Collection under construction: VG Barber Quarters & Halves
Are there collectors and Dealers that are finally catching on to the concept that originality means something? This is not new and I have discussed this at great length for those that read my posts. I am just going t cut to the chase for those that tuned in late...
1. The concept of labelling a coin dipped or cleaned has been tried and it has not worked. You can fill in the blanks....
2. A Star designation has been implemented by a grading service that needs no introduction and it has worked... and it has worked well.
3. Mr. WINTERS... I appreciate your wisdom and knowledge but the way to get the job done is to reward and not penalize... an original surfaces designation is far more compelling and effective than stating that the coin was dipped.
4. PCGS has done some terrific things for Numismatics and perhaps those folks who carry more weight than I do can help steer this debate in the right direction... Southern gold is only an example of the problem, yet there is talk about the problem and no action. This is not acceptable.
5. I agree that the next wave of identifying varities in various series is long overdue...
I will predict here and now that the service that first offers an original surfaces designation will be A RECOGNIZED LEADER IN THE NUMISMATIC COMMUNITY. Is it not time to lead instead of follow???
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
I am completely confident in your grading abilities. For Seated Dollars, grading is an art and science that makes the series a challenge that few choose to undertake... I left the TD out of this for obvious reasons...
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
<< <i>I think Mr Winter has been reading my posts concerning TPGs. >>
I agree. There is nothing new in DW's report. Everything he mentions has been discussed on this forum many, many times.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Doug is showing his frustration and disdain for the "conversion" of what a coin really looks like and what makes it "prettier" to an untrained eye.
I for one have seen many of the gold coins from the historically great collections...Eliasberg, Crawford, Morweb, Priice, Bass, Dallas Bank, Duckor and what is so glaringly evident is the toned, antiqued natural look that the coins have. The difference between this type of preserved coin and the stuff that one finds today is monumental. I've seen key date Saints that looked like they should be on necklaces they were so shiny and cleaned! When you see a great untouched coin it just screams at you. As RYK said, (I believe it was him), the natural, untouched coins will catch the interest of the serious collectors and dealers and IMO will always bring a premium over their pretty chemically enhanced counterparts.
I've sat at auction viewings with Akers, Duckor and Blay looking at hundreds of coins in a sitting and everytime an obvious cleaned, dipped or tampered coin is handed over, it's immediately dismissed as "dipped!"...."next". Not that they won't sell, but they are of no interest. If one is looking for a fraternity of experts that define the hobby, thay are it.
Give me natural toned, untampered stuff anyday.
Like this...a Brahin/Duckor/Akers 1924-S originally purchased 25 years ago...so toned it can't be photographed accurately....but IN HAND...it's on fire!!
Saint-- WOW. I didn't think that coins like that existed anymore. It puts to shame the product that is generally in auctions today.
Always took candy from strangers Didn't wanna get me no trade Never want to be like papa Working for the boss every night and day --"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
<< <i>I literally weep in front of my computer monitor when I see some of the "before and after" pictures that people post here to illustrate dipping. >>
In case you needed something to cry about.
Russ, NCNE >>
Hehehe.....cryin' all the way to da bank!!!!!!!!
This is a very dumb ass thread. - Laura Sperber - Tuesday January 09, 2007 11:16 AM
Hell, I don't need to exercise.....I get enough just pushing my luck.
Per Legend-- "Here is the problem: The majority of coins buyers today, are NOT educated and do NOT understand originality. It is IMPOSSIBLE to educate the masses. So, what they demand, is bright and shiney dipped out coins. You can NOT blame the grading services nor any dealers for this."
****************
I think the masses, of which I am a member, should be given a bit more credit than that.
Always took candy from strangers Didn't wanna get me no trade Never want to be like papa Working for the boss every night and day --"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
<< <i>So, what they demand, is bright and shiney dipped out coins. You can NOT blame the grading services nor any dealers for this. >>
Sure we can. These dealers are willing to sacrifice a coin's originality for a few more bucks. The TPGs are rewarding coin doctoring by giving a grading bump for dipped out coins in some cases.
I think we CAN blame them for that.
This is the difference between a dealer and a numismatist, I think. A dealer only looking for a quick buck will sacrifice a coin to make it. A serious numismatist most likely believes that we have a duty as "caretakers" of the coins we own, and would thus refuse to doctor the coin.
<< <i>So, what they demand, is bright and shiney dipped out coins. You can NOT blame the grading services nor any dealers for this. >>
Sure we can. These dealers are willing to sacrifice a coin's originality for a few more bucks. The TPGs are rewarding coin doctoring by giving a grading bump for dipped out coins in some cases.
I think we CAN blame them for that.
This is the difference between a dealer and a numismatist, I think. A dealer only looking for a quick buck will sacrifice a coin to make it. A serious numismatist most likely believes that we have a duty as "caretakers" of the coins we own, and would thus refuse to doctor the coin. >>
This is however a 2 way street. The whole idea behind a business ( a viable one) is to generate revenue. So, if there is a demand, there will be a supply. Is it numisastic? No. But, its busines and I for one cant fault folks for that. IF you want fault, then go to the "grading" services and tell them that bright and shiny is great for a toothpaste, but not coins...
The masses don't want to listen to an old fogy like me. I can show them original coins, and it won’t make any difference. They want coins that look like they “just came out of the mint” even if it takes dipping and cleaning to make them look that way.
AND then you have the third party grading services who are hiring profoundly IGNORANT graders. I just got this coin back from NGC in a body bag marked "environmental damage." I scoped this coin, and there is only toning. The surfaces are not porous in any way. The coin merely shows the toning that has formed on it over the last 100 years. There is NOTHING WRONG with this coin from a numismatic perspective.
Does it make you wonder why so many original coins are going down the tubes when the ignorant graders are turning out work like this? Yet there is no one to whom a customer can complain. We as consumers have no rights, and experienced dealers and collectors have little say in how coins are preserved.
Destroy the originality of the coin; get it slabbed. That’s the way it works today.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
<< <i>The masses don't want to listen to an old fogy like me. I can show them original coins, and it won’t make any difference. They want coins that look like they “just came out of the mint” even if it takes dipping and cleaning to make them look that way.
AND then you have the third party grading services who are hiring profoundly IGNORANT graders. I just got this coin back from NGC in a body bag marked "environmental damage." I scoped this coin, and there is only toning. The surfaces are not porous in any way. The coin merely shows the toning that has formed on it over the last 100 years. There is NOTHING WRONG with this coin from a numismatic perspective.
Does it make you wonder why so many original coins are going down the tubes when the ignorant graders are turning out work like this? Yet there is no one to whom a customer can complain. We as consumers have no rights, and experienced dealers and collectors have little say in how coins are preserved.
Destroy the originality of the coin; get it slabbed. That’s the way it works today. >>
Oddly enough, didnt antique furniture go through/still going through this same cycle? The difference in value between a cleaned piece (low value) and a piece that is uncleaned and original is HUGE.
PS. It looks like this thread has taken on a life of its own. I wonder how long it will be until it beats the Economic Predictions thread.
Always took candy from strangers Didn't wanna get me no trade Never want to be like papa Working for the boss every night and day --"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
Far too many dealers know far too little about numismatics. They often can't grade, don't know varieties and have no eye for what makes a coin original or attractive. Thanks to the grading services this really doesn't matter in far too many cases. All the dealers have to do is look at the number on the plastic and check their gray sheet - market grading, market price, ...sold!
The same is true for many collectors - if the coin is in "good" plastic it must be a good coin.
The real numismatic collectors will gravitate to the dealers who know numismatics or look through hundreds of pieces of junk at an auction viewing until they find a good coin. For the others dipped, doctored, sliders, etc. will continue to sell because the TPG's say the coin is OK for the market and the collectors buy into that "OK".
Except for the precious gems market (hundreds of thousands of poor quality, cloudy, full of inclusions junk diamonds in engagement rings), I can't think of a market with more potential for manipulation and fraud. No regulation, a fertile ground for collusion, insiders are free to do just about anything they want, and ignorance reigns.
OK, so will there be a backlash to this? In other words, will there one day be this desire on the part of the consumer to say, oh wait a minute, I want coins to be authentic and show their truer/purer state?
I am very interested in a reply to this as my return to collecting has been very interesting from the standpoint of the hopes/faith people are putting into a grading service.
Yes Antique furniture did go through this disaster of cleaning and resurfacing 1950-65. Yesterdays highly marketable piece --surfaces altered to fit the masse's taste---is today worth 5 to 10 TIMES LESS than the original surface piece. The major high end dealers today refer to "older surfaces" rather than "original", because it's usually hard to say for sure on a 200 year old example never was cleaned lightly long ago. Just like coins. - ------------------ The notion that the TPGs HAVE to give higher grades for dipped coins because of the masses is Absurd. The masses would be perfectly happy buying white shiney coins at a lower grades, and therefore prices. And most collectors here would be perfectly happy buying coins with old surfaces, at 2 to 5 times the white coins auction price--At least that's what I seen bid-wise recently at auction.
<< <i>Yes Antique furniture did go through this disaster of cleaning and resurfacing 1950-65. Yesterdays highly marketable piece --surfaces altered to fit the masse's taste---is today worth 5 to 10 TIMES LESS than the original surface piece. The major high end dealers today refer to "older surfaces" rather than "original", because it's usually hard to say for sure on a 200 year old example never was cleaned lightly long ago. Just like coins. - ------------------ The notion that the TPGs HAVE to give higher grades for dipped coins because of the masses is Absurd. The masses would be perfectly happy buying white shiney coins at a lower grades, and therefore prices. And most collectors here would be perfectly happy buying coins with old surfaces, at 2 to 5 times the white coins auction price--At least that's what I seen bid-wise recently at auction. >>
Well there you have it, invest long term in dirty coins...........
this thread is a good reminder that Numismatics suffers in the same way from the same flaws as every human endeavor, in this case with this topic the culprit is clearly Greed, the classic leader of the pack of the Seven Deadly Sins.
at the end of the day just ask yourself one question-----What are the two simple things I want my Grading Service of choice to do when I submit coins for their opinion??
if the answer is anything past Technical Grade and Attribution/Authenticity then take a look in the mirror and glimpse the cause of the current state affairs.
<< <i>What are the two simple things I want my Grading Service of choice to do when I submit coins for their opinion??
if the answer is anything past Technical Grade and Attribution/Authenticity then take a look in the mirror and glimpse the cause of the current state affairs. >>
<< <i> Technical Grade and Attribution/Authenticity >>
Of course, it just takes me 10 resubmissions to get it.
the reason for that is simple; we've been asking for much more for so long that their focus is now on the "other" things which can be wrapped into a ball called Market Grading.
<< <i>If he hadn't, this thread would have died 40 posts ago.
Russ, NCNE >>
Shhhh. I've never had a 100 post thread before.
Always took candy from strangers Didn't wanna get me no trade Never want to be like papa Working for the boss every night and day --"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
<< <i>OK, so will there be a backlash to this? In other words, will there one day be this desire on the part of the consumer to say, oh wait a minute, I want coins to be authentic and show their truer/purer state? >>
My guess is that the pendulum WILL eventually swing back that way. And, that when it does, there will be FAR fewer "original" coins left for buyers to pursue. >>
AND when that happens, most collectors will be priced out of the market for those specific coins. SO, yes, its a pendulum that will gut this hobby unless enough folks I guess get it. As I said earlier, look at ntique furniture and the MOON MONEY an uncleaned original piece can attract.
Mark, do you think the "pendulum" will ever swing back in favor of buffed/shined/whizzed coins?
Salute the automobile: The greatest anti-pollution device in human history! (Just think of city streets clogged with a hundred thousand horses each generating 15 lbs of manure every day...)
My guess is that the pendulum WILL eventually swing back that way. And, that when it does, there will be FAR fewer "original" coins left for buyers to pursue.
Cool. I have noting to fear. Do you ever think there will be a time that a nice, original VF coin will be valued in the market more than a dipped, shiny technical AU? I personally doubt it.
<< <i>My guess is that the pendulum WILL eventually swing back that way. And, that when it does, there will be FAR fewer "original" coins left for buyers to pursue.
Cool. I have noting to fear. Do you ever think there will be a time that a nice, original VF coin will be valued in the market more than a dipped, shiny technical AU? I personally doubt it. >>
Actually, yes, one day that could just be the case if the nutty way grading is going now prevails, I m almost certain there will be the uncleand VF super duper make it up as I go along grade just like we have now with MS 1000000000 or PF (provide a number in scientific notation) seems to be headed now.
WORST OF ALL, where is the avenue a collector has to question the grade of one of these objects of perfection? Wow, I can see proit everywhere and actual numisastics becoming that "weird" hobby again. I kind of like that.
A couple of posts here have censured Doug Winter for dipping coins to make them “market acceptable” for the grading companies. I too deplore the dipping of the coins for that reason, but sadly we have to remember that numismatics is a business. If you are to survive and be successful, a dealer has to think about the sort term. And if you are in the employ of someone else, they will expect to get their money’s worth out of your salary.
Therefore a dealer, who can’t afford to collector or hold the coins, must make a tough choice. AND look at it this way. If dealer #1 is a purist and sells the coin raw to dealer #2, chances are that dealer will the dip the coin anyway to get the advantage of the market grading. The coin will end up in the same sad place.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
<< <i>OK, so will there be a backlash to this? In other words, will there one day be this desire on the part of the consumer to say, oh wait a minute, I want coins to be authentic and show their truer/purer state? >>
My guess is that the pendulum WILL eventually swing back that way. And, that when it does, there will be FAR fewer "original" coins left for buyers to pursue. >>
Undoubtably true .... but I suspect that they'll just 'make' more.
Therefore a dealer, who can’t afford to collector or hold the coins, must make a tough choice. AND look at it this way. If dealer #1 is a purist and sells the coin raw to dealer #2, chances are that dealer will the dip the coin anyway to get the advantage of the market grading. The coin will end up in the same sad place.
BillJones, that is an excellent point. I have often read the collector gripe that "the next guy", often the dealer, is the one who always gets the upgrade. Perhaps there is more to it than good fortune.
I know of a significant early collection that was sold to a handpicked dealer to be placed with a client .... all just so that the coins wouldn't be 'worked over'.
<< <i>I know of a significant early collection that was sold to a handpicked dealer to be placed with a client .... all just so that the coins wouldn't be 'worked over'. >>
This is interesting. How often does something like this happen, and what was the effect on the final price of the coins related to this special deal?
Always took candy from strangers Didn't wanna get me no trade Never want to be like papa Working for the boss every night and day --"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
I certainly have been steered coins (a couple of Reece's and Dahlonega's come to mind) that likely could have been maxed out for more $$$ if the owners wanted.
<< <i>Who do I have to flame to get this thread to 100?
I certainly have been steered coins (a couple of Reece's and Dahlonega's come to mind) that likely could have been maxed out for more $$$ if the owners wanted. >>
Did the fact that a coin got steered to you have any effect on the price? In other words, did you say to the sellers, "you know I won't dip this coin, so for that, I am going to pay you at at 20% discount for the coin"
Always took candy from strangers Didn't wanna get me no trade Never want to be like papa Working for the boss every night and day --"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
It might depend on the financial situation of the seller and how much the coin is really worth.....
If getting a few extra bucks did not matter to me, I would rather some of my special coins would go to somebody that would really and truely appreciate them.....
This might be wishful thinking on my part, but ya never know.....
Collection under construction: VG Barber Quarters & Halves
<< <i>It might depend on the financial situation of the seller and how much the coin is really worth.....
If getting a few extra bucks did not matter to me, I would rather some of my special coins would go to somebody that would really and truely appreciate them.....
This might be wishful thinking on my part, but ya never know..... >>
That's true. I wonder how many other collectors feel the same way, though.
Always took candy from strangers Didn't wanna get me no trade Never want to be like papa Working for the boss every night and day --"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
<<I certainly have been steered coins (a couple of Reece's and Dahlonega's come to mind) that likely could have been maxed out for more $$$ if the owners wanted. >>
<Did the fact that a coin got steered to you have any effect on the price? In other words, did you say to the sellers, "you know I won't dip this coin, so for that, I am going to pay you at at 20% discount for the coin" >
In these cases, I paid market value (often strong money) for what the coins were, not what they could be.
Always took candy from strangers Didn't wanna get me no trade Never want to be like papa Working for the boss every night and day --"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
The time for arm chair philosophy is over in connection with grading... how about some action? An original surfaces designation likely would go along way to slow down the number of original coins being slaughtered...
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Sort of mediocre on the top two.......Are these the only ones that matter........??? No mention of the last toning fiasco............or what would be acceptable.......... Kinda dull............................Why not CRUCIFY the PHONY grading services.......Tell the public how much damage they do to the collecting community.............JMHO........
An original surfaces designation could apply to MS coins. If there is doubt, the coin does not get the designation.
I think you may have some misunderstanding about how this would be applied. Lets use an EF Half Eagle from one of the southern mints as an example... the coin is worn, but worthy of an EF40 grade and has some lustre and the surfaces have signs of obvious originality and by that I mean the coin has not been dipped or enhanced. The coin would grade EF40 O/S abbreviated for original surfaces. There are coins worthy of such a designation and such a designation is long overdue.
I see this designation as being significant for type coins and early gold for grades in the VF20+ range. There are series of coins I do not even bother with in light of the common practice as to what seems to be considered market acceptable... sorry but I have little interest in sooo much of the dipped out crap that exists
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
<< <i>A couple of posts here have censured Doug Winter for dipping coins to make them “market acceptable” for the grading companies. I too deplore the dipping of the coins for that reason, but sadly we have to remember that numismatics is a business. If you are to survive and be successful, a dealer has to think about the sort term. And if you are in the employ of someone else, they will expect to get their money’s worth out of your salary.
Therefore a dealer, who can’t afford to collector or hold the coins, must make a tough choice. AND look at it this way. If dealer #1 is a purist and sells the coin raw to dealer #2, chances are that dealer will the dip the coin anyway to get the advantage of the market grading. The coin will end up in the same sad place. >>
That is something I did not think of as far as deals between dealers. I have an original, I dip, resell, profit etc etc etc etc . SO, the only thing I could see, IMO, would be a bottoming out of the market for shiny dipped pieces. At least, other collectibles have followed suit.
OR, some of the raw junk coin folk (counts me) may be looking at having field day in the next decade?????
Comments
My assumption, which might be incorrect, is that those coins, (C, D & O) where collected by old style numismatists and not people that care about the grades given to them by PCGS.....
Are there collectors and Dealers that are finally catching on to the concept that originality means something? This is not new and I have discussed this at great length for those that read my posts. I am just going t cut to the chase for those that tuned in late...
1. The concept of labelling a coin dipped or cleaned has been tried and it has not worked. You can fill in the blanks....
2. A Star designation has been implemented by a grading service that needs no introduction and it has worked... and it has worked well.
3. Mr. WINTERS... I appreciate your wisdom and knowledge but the way to get the job done is to reward and not penalize... an original surfaces designation is far more compelling and effective than stating that the coin was dipped.
4. PCGS has done some terrific things for Numismatics and perhaps those folks who carry more weight than I do can help steer this debate in the right direction... Southern gold is only an example of the problem, yet there is talk about the problem and no action. This is not acceptable.
5. I agree that the next wave of identifying varities in various series is long overdue...
I will predict here and now that the service that first offers an original surfaces designation will be A RECOGNIZED LEADER IN THE NUMISMATIC COMMUNITY. Is it not time to lead instead of follow???
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
I am completely confident in your grading abilities. For Seated Dollars, grading is an art and science that makes the series a challenge that few choose to undertake... I left the TD out of this for obvious reasons...
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
<< <i>I think Mr Winter has been reading my posts concerning TPGs.
I agree. There is nothing new in DW's report. Everything he mentions has been discussed on this forum many, many times.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I for one have seen many of the gold coins from the historically great collections...Eliasberg, Crawford, Morweb, Priice, Bass, Dallas Bank, Duckor and what is so glaringly evident is the toned, antiqued natural look that the coins have. The difference between this type of preserved coin and the stuff that one finds today is monumental. I've seen key date Saints that looked like they should be on necklaces they were so shiny and cleaned! When you see a great untouched coin it just screams at you. As RYK said, (I believe it was him), the natural, untouched coins will catch the interest of the serious collectors and dealers and IMO will always bring a premium over their pretty chemically enhanced counterparts.
I've sat at auction viewings with Akers, Duckor and Blay looking at hundreds of coins in a sitting and everytime an obvious cleaned, dipped or tampered coin is handed over, it's immediately dismissed as "dipped!"...."next". Not that they won't sell, but they are of no interest. If one is looking for a fraternity of experts that define the hobby, thay are it.
Give me natural toned, untampered stuff anyday.
Like this...a Brahin/Duckor/Akers 1924-S originally purchased 25 years ago...so toned it can't be photographed accurately....but IN HAND...it's on fire!!
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
You should see this in hand. The pic makes it look "busy" but it's more like a piece of the sun.
<< <i>
<< <i>I literally weep in front of my computer monitor when I see some of the "before and after" pictures that people post here to illustrate dipping. >>
In case you needed something to cry about.
Russ, NCNE >>
Hehehe.....cryin' all the way to da bank!!!!!!!!
Hell, I don't need to exercise.....I get enough just pushing my luck.
****************
I think the masses, of which I am a member, should be given a bit more credit than that.
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
<< <i>So, what they demand, is bright and shiney dipped out coins. You can NOT blame the grading services nor any dealers for this. >>
Sure we can. These dealers are willing to sacrifice a coin's originality for a few more bucks. The TPGs are rewarding coin doctoring by giving a grading bump for dipped out coins in some cases.
I think we CAN blame them for that.
This is the difference between a dealer and a numismatist, I think. A dealer only looking for a quick buck will sacrifice a coin to make it. A serious numismatist most likely believes that we have a duty as "caretakers" of the coins we own, and would thus refuse to doctor the coin.
<< <i>
<< <i>So, what they demand, is bright and shiney dipped out coins. You can NOT blame the grading services nor any dealers for this. >>
Sure we can. These dealers are willing to sacrifice a coin's originality for a few more bucks. The TPGs are rewarding coin doctoring by giving a grading bump for dipped out coins in some cases.
I think we CAN blame them for that.
This is the difference between a dealer and a numismatist, I think. A dealer only looking for a quick buck will sacrifice a coin to make it. A serious numismatist most likely believes that we have a duty as "caretakers" of the coins we own, and would thus refuse to doctor the coin. >>
This is however a 2 way street. The whole idea behind a business ( a viable one) is to generate revenue. So, if there is a demand, there will be a supply. Is it numisastic? No. But, its busines and I for one cant fault folks for that. IF you want fault, then go to the "grading" services and tell them that bright and shiny is great for a toothpaste, but not coins...
AND then you have the third party grading services who are hiring profoundly IGNORANT graders. I just got this coin back from NGC in a body bag marked "environmental damage." I scoped this coin, and there is only toning. The surfaces are not porous in any way. The coin merely shows the toning that has formed on it over the last 100 years. There is NOTHING WRONG with this coin from a numismatic perspective.
Does it make you wonder why so many original coins are going down the tubes when the ignorant graders are turning out work like this? Yet there is no one to whom a customer can complain. We as consumers have no rights, and experienced dealers and collectors have little say in how coins are preserved.
Destroy the originality of the coin; get it slabbed. That’s the way it works today.
<< <i>The masses don't want to listen to an old fogy like me. I can show them original coins, and it won’t make any difference. They want coins that look like they “just came out of the mint” even if it takes dipping and cleaning to make them look that way.
AND then you have the third party grading services who are hiring profoundly IGNORANT graders. I just got this coin back from NGC in a body bag marked "environmental damage." I scoped this coin, and there is only toning. The surfaces are not porous in any way. The coin merely shows the toning that has formed on it over the last 100 years. There is NOTHING WRONG with this coin from a numismatic perspective.
Does it make you wonder why so many original coins are going down the tubes when the ignorant graders are turning out work like this? Yet there is no one to whom a customer can complain. We as consumers have no rights, and experienced dealers and collectors have little say in how coins are preserved.
Destroy the originality of the coin; get it slabbed. That’s the way it works today. >>
Oddly enough, didnt antique furniture go through/still going through this same cycle? The difference in value between a cleaned piece (low value) and a piece that is uncleaned and original is HUGE.
PS. It looks like this thread has taken on a life of its own. I wonder how long it will be until it beats the Economic Predictions thread.
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
The same is true for many collectors - if the coin is in "good" plastic it must be a good coin.
The real numismatic collectors will gravitate to the dealers who know numismatics or look through hundreds of pieces of junk at an auction viewing until they find a good coin. For the others dipped, doctored, sliders, etc. will continue to sell because the TPG's say the coin is OK for the market and the collectors buy into that "OK".
Except for the precious gems market (hundreds of thousands of poor quality, cloudy, full of inclusions junk diamonds in engagement rings), I can't think of a market with more potential for manipulation and fraud. No regulation, a fertile ground for collusion, insiders are free to do just about anything they want, and ignorance reigns.
<< <i>My beef was the apparent hypocrisy of whining about dipping (or whatever) coins, while admitting doing just that.
I am very surprised that DW included that controversial sentence in his article. >>
If he hadn't, this thread would have died 40 posts ago.
Russ, NCNE
I am very interested in a reply to this as my return to collecting has been very interesting from the standpoint of the hopes/faith people are putting into a grading service.
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The notion that the TPGs HAVE to give higher grades for dipped coins because of the masses is Absurd. The masses would be perfectly happy buying white shiney coins at a lower grades, and therefore prices. And most collectors here would be perfectly happy buying coins with old surfaces, at 2 to 5 times the white coins auction price--At least that's what I seen bid-wise recently at auction.
<< <i>Yes Antique furniture did go through this disaster of cleaning and resurfacing 1950-65. Yesterdays highly marketable piece --surfaces altered to fit the masse's taste---is today worth 5 to 10 TIMES LESS than the original surface piece. The major high end dealers today refer to "older surfaces" rather than "original", because it's usually hard to say for sure on a 200 year old example never was cleaned lightly long ago. Just like coins. -
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The notion that the TPGs HAVE to give higher grades for dipped coins because of the masses is Absurd. The masses would be perfectly happy buying white shiney coins at a lower grades, and therefore prices. And most collectors here would be perfectly happy buying coins with old surfaces, at 2 to 5 times the white coins auction price--At least that's what I seen bid-wise recently at auction. >>
Well there you have it, invest long term in dirty coins...........
at the end of the day just ask yourself one question-----What are the two simple things I want my Grading Service of choice to do when I submit coins for their opinion??
if the answer is anything past Technical Grade and Attribution/Authenticity then take a look in the mirror and glimpse the cause of the current state affairs.
<< <i>What are the two simple things I want my Grading Service of choice to do when I submit coins for their opinion??
if the answer is anything past Technical Grade and Attribution/Authenticity then take a look in the mirror and glimpse the cause of the current state affairs. >>
<< <i> Technical Grade and Attribution/Authenticity >>
Of course, it just takes me 10 resubmissions to get it.
<< <i>If he hadn't, this thread would have died 40 posts ago.
Russ, NCNE >>
Shhhh. I've never had a 100 post thread before.
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
<< <i>
<< <i>OK, so will there be a backlash to this? In other words, will there one day be this desire on the part of the consumer to say, oh wait a minute, I want coins to be authentic and show their truer/purer state? >>
My guess is that the pendulum WILL eventually swing back that way. And, that when it does, there will be FAR fewer "original" coins left for buyers to pursue. >>
AND when that happens, most collectors will be priced out of the market for those specific coins. SO, yes, its a pendulum that will gut this hobby unless enough folks I guess get it. As I said earlier, look at ntique furniture and the MOON MONEY an uncleaned original piece can attract.
(Just think of city streets clogged with a hundred thousand horses each generating 15 lbs of manure every day...)
Cool. I have noting to fear. Do you ever think there will be a time that a nice, original VF coin will be valued in the market more than a dipped, shiny technical AU? I personally doubt it.
<< <i>My guess is that the pendulum WILL eventually swing back that way. And, that when it does, there will be FAR fewer "original" coins left for buyers to pursue.
Cool. I have noting to fear. Do you ever think there will be a time that a nice, original VF coin will be valued in the market more than a dipped, shiny technical AU? I personally doubt it. >>
Actually, yes, one day that could just be the case if the nutty way grading is going now prevails, I m almost certain there will be the uncleand VF super duper make it up as I go along grade just like we have now with MS 1000000000 or PF (provide a number in scientific notation) seems to be headed now.
WORST OF ALL, where is the avenue a collector has to question the grade of one of these objects of perfection? Wow, I can see proit everywhere and actual numisastics becoming that "weird" hobby again. I kind of like that.
Therefore a dealer, who can’t afford to collector or hold the coins, must make a tough choice. AND look at it this way. If dealer #1 is a purist and sells the coin raw to dealer #2, chances are that dealer will the dip the coin anyway to get the advantage of the market grading. The coin will end up in the same sad place.
<< <i>
<< <i>OK, so will there be a backlash to this? In other words, will there one day be this desire on the part of the consumer to say, oh wait a minute, I want coins to be authentic and show their truer/purer state? >>
My guess is that the pendulum WILL eventually swing back that way. And, that when it does, there will be FAR fewer "original" coins left for buyers to pursue. >>
Undoubtably true .... but I suspect that they'll just 'make' more.
BillJones, that is an excellent point. I have often read the collector gripe that "the next guy", often the dealer, is the one who always gets the upgrade. Perhaps there is more to it than good fortune.
<< <i>I know of a significant early collection that was sold to a handpicked dealer to be placed with a client .... all just so that the coins wouldn't be 'worked over'.
This is interesting. How often does something like this happen, and what was the effect on the final price of the coins related to this special deal?
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
I certainly have been steered coins (a couple of Reece's and Dahlonega's come to mind) that likely could have been maxed out for more $$$ if the owners wanted.
<< <i>Who do I have to flame to get this thread to 100?
I certainly have been steered coins (a couple of Reece's and Dahlonega's come to mind) that likely could have been maxed out for more $$$ if the owners wanted. >>
Did the fact that a coin got steered to you have any effect on the price? In other words, did you say to the sellers, "you know I won't dip this coin, so for that, I am going to pay you at at 20% discount for the coin"
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
If getting a few extra bucks did not matter to me, I would rather some of my special coins would go to somebody that would really and truely appreciate them.....
This might be wishful thinking on my part, but ya never know.....
<< <i>It might depend on the financial situation of the seller and how much the coin is really worth.....
If getting a few extra bucks did not matter to me, I would rather some of my special coins would go to somebody that would really and truely appreciate them.....
This might be wishful thinking on my part, but ya never know..... >>
That's true. I wonder how many other collectors feel the same way, though.
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
<Did the fact that a coin got steered to you have any effect on the price? In other words, did you say to the sellers, "you know I won't dip this coin, so for that, I am going to pay you at at 20% discount for the coin" >
In these cases, I paid market value (often strong money) for what the coins were, not what they could be.
<< <i>
In these cases, I paid market value (often strong money) for what the coins were, not what they could be. >>
Isn't that what the strong money the strong money is saying? "This more than a technical grade"
<< <i>100 >>
I can rest easy now.
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
<< <i>Geez longacre...every other post I start on the OF goes 100...I guess I'm a lightning rod
Poor Jay, still confusing a "lightening rod" for a "nimrod".
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
how does one use it when looking at a D half eagle in XF?
50-70% (even higher now days?) of its luster is gone.
it would never deserve the designation, correct?
i am just thinking, what would get it and what would not
automatically, by definition. an XF coin has lots its original skin
for the most part?
No mention of the last toning fiasco............or what would be acceptable..........
Kinda dull............................Why not CRUCIFY the PHONY grading services.......Tell the public how much damage they do to the collecting community.............JMHO........
An original surfaces designation could apply to MS coins. If there is doubt, the coin does not get the designation.
I think you may have some misunderstanding about how this would be applied. Lets use an EF Half Eagle from one of the southern mints as an example... the coin is worn, but worthy of an EF40 grade and has some lustre and the surfaces have signs of obvious originality and by that I mean the coin has not been dipped or enhanced. The coin would grade EF40 O/S abbreviated for original surfaces. There are coins worthy of such a designation and such a designation is long overdue.
I see this designation as being significant for type coins and early gold for grades in the VF20+ range. There are series of coins I do not even bother with in light of the common practice as to what seems to be considered market acceptable... sorry but I have little interest in sooo much of the dipped out crap that exists
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
<< <i>A couple of posts here have censured Doug Winter for dipping coins to make them “market acceptable” for the grading companies. I too deplore the dipping of the coins for that reason, but sadly we have to remember that numismatics is a business. If you are to survive and be successful, a dealer has to think about the sort term. And if you are in the employ of someone else, they will expect to get their money’s worth out of your salary.
Therefore a dealer, who can’t afford to collector or hold the coins, must make a tough choice. AND look at it this way. If dealer #1 is a purist and sells the coin raw to dealer #2, chances are that dealer will the dip the coin anyway to get the advantage of the market grading. The coin will end up in the same sad place.
That is something I did not think of as far as deals between dealers. I have an original, I dip, resell, profit etc etc etc etc . SO, the only thing I could see, IMO, would be a bottoming out of the market for shiny dipped pieces. At least, other collectibles have followed suit.
OR, some of the raw junk coin folk (counts me) may be looking at having field day in the next decade?????