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Fake Gold Bullion Possible?

Weather11amWeather11am Posts: 2,045 ✭✭✭
I was wondering if this is even possible, you buy a 1/10 gold american eagle when in reality it might just be silver and only gold plated. Could this happen in the future? Should you look out for it? Same with platinum. Can you tell the difference between platinum and silver? Thanks!

Comments

  • 291fifth291fifth Posts: 24,416 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Fake 1/10 oz. platinum pieces have been made. Learn what the genuine ones look like and look carefully at what you buy.

    With high bullion prices the criminal element will be active.
    All glory is fleeting.
  • topstuftopstuf Posts: 14,803 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>With high bullion prices the criminal element will be active. >>



    TODAY'S bullion market may "decriminalize" it.

    image
  • FullStrikeFullStrike Posts: 4,353 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Can you tell the difference between platinum and silver? Thanks! >>




    If you see a "Monster Toned" Platinum Eagle offered anywhere, RESIST the urge to bid on it. image
  • sinin1sinin1 Posts: 7,500
    ICG discovered fake bullion submitted a couple years ago

    I can't remember the details


  • << <i> Can you tell the difference between platinum and silver? Thanks! >>




    At the same size, platinum is much much heavier than silver. You can easy tell by feeling the weight in your hand.
  • Conder101Conder101 Posts: 10,536
    There have been fake K-rands out there for years, and I know there have been some fakes of some of the other non-US bullion coins as well (Fake Pandas are supposed to be commonplace right now.) And we have all seen the fake silver eagles from China. It would not surprise me at all to see more fake US bullion in the future.

    Platinum is twice as heavy as silver. The only way to make a convincing fake platinum of the proper size is to make it from gold and plate it. Even then it will be almost 10% underweight. (But a very slight increase in thickness can hide most if not all of that.)

    You have the same problem with plated silver fake gold. Silver only weighs about half as much as gold.
  • kiyotekiyote Posts: 5,580 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>ICG discovered fake bullion submitted a couple years ago

    I can't remember the details >>



    You're right.. it was a pretty shoddy job, too.

    details on the 2002 tenth oz
    "I'll split the atom! I am the fifth dimension! I am the eighth wonder of the world!" -Gef the talking mongoose.
  • I've messed around with specific gravity wieghing and it seems the answer to this dilema. With a good quality jewelry scale with a hook) wieghing under water seems to be accurate. But, someone else is going to come along and say prove it..... what with fire assay? I trust the specific gravity method. It's based in real science and with a 200 gram/ .01 scale , I think it's pretty close. Others might differ, but when it gets down to $5, on a 1 ounce purchase.... Get the wieght as close as can be and then you're worrying about purity. Do it right and you can get to that .95-.99 range. 99.999? well thats another fish, but who cares. Well some do.

  • AUandAGAUandAG Posts: 24,799 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I read years ago, that there were 100oz silver bars that had been hollowed out and filled with lead or such.
    Well, I bought a collection this past weekend of mostly half dollars (kennedys) and the seller had one 100oz
    Englehard bar. I looked carefully at it and on the end, right in the middle, there was a 3/16 to 1/4 inch drill
    hole that had been partially hidden with melted silver! I backed off in a hurry! I did not weigh the bar. The
    seller indicated that he paid $10,000 for the bar in '80 or '81. I asked why he would pay double the price of
    silver and he said that he was betting on the Hunt brothers driving the prices even higher! Ooooops, that
    didn't work out well.

    So, could there be gold plated silver bars? Yes, there sure could be. The size would be the tell as the silver would
    be so much bigger than the same weight gold. An ounce of gold is soooo much smaller than an ounce of silver.

    bob
    Registry: CC lowballs (boblindstrom), bobinvegas1989@yahoo.com
  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,325 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I knew a flea-market coin dealer that bought a one ounce Mexican silver bullion coin that had been gold plated. He was really pissed when I pointed this out to him.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
    AUandAG, a question... If there was a quarter inch drill hole (albeit covered with melted silver) in the end of the bar... how much silver could have been missing? Or was there also a seam indicating it had been hollowed and rejoined? I am curious as to the way it would have been filled with (lead I presume?) another metal... Unless two hollowed out pieces had been joined.. there would not be much missing silver. Do not get me wrong... any tampering would put me off the deal as it did you... Just interested in the mechanics of the fraud. Inputs anyone?? Cheers, RickO
  • theumptheump Posts: 634 ✭✭
    How does one go about hollowing out a 100oz silver bar? Not like it's a stuffing filled teddy bear.
  • AUandAGAUandAG Posts: 24,799 ✭✭✭✭✭
    How much they got out or how they did it is beyond me. It's just that I had heard that it was done and
    I've always looked for the drill hole when buying bars. This is the first I've ever seen. What was different
    however, is that the bar did not look like the normal nice and smooth Englehard bar. This one had what
    I can only describe as itty bitty pockets and voids all over the bar. It was a rough texture. There should
    not be a filled hole on the end as that's not how they were poured. The bar was sold to him in Cleveland.
    bob
    Registry: CC lowballs (boblindstrom), bobinvegas1989@yahoo.com
  • This is what I would recommend. If you are in the market for large quantities of bullion, especially gold, I don't see why it would be a problem to bring a file and an acid test kit. Unless you were dealing with someone who you absolutely trust, test it before you buy it. If its gold plated one swipe of the file will show the base metal. If they don't want you using a file go with a good pin and "make your mark" so to speak. If you still have concerns acid test it for purity. If they don't want you testing a stamped ingot, panda, K-Rand, or especially a home poured block walk away.

    Here is a link for Gold acid testing.

    gold acid test


    CJK
  • How much could bmissing? Two words, directional drilling. Through the larger hole you use a smaller drill to drill many holes each at a different angle. You can hollow out a lot more that way. You can also introduce a rasp on a flexible shaft. If you want to take the time you can actually hollow out the entire bar leaving just a shell. If the shell is then filled with a lead/zinc alloy that has the proper ratio, you can even get the specific gravity right.
  • Excerpt from Annual Report of the Director of the Mint to the Secretary of the Treasury Fiscal Year Ended June 30, 1878
    Washington: Government Printing Office, 1878, Page 9-10. – Historical Reference Collection, United States Mint.

    PRECAUTIONS AGAINST COUNTERFEITING.

    I have long been impressed with the belief that the worst danger which threatens our gold coin, from counterfeiters, is the filling with an inferior metal or alloy. By this art the piece presents genuine exteriors, but the inner part having been removed, a disk of platinum, pure or alloyed, is inserted in its place and closed with a ribbed rim of gold. It is, therefore, partly genuine and partly counterfeit, and its value is reduced by several dollars, differing according to the denomination of the piece.
  • SlangNRoxSlangNRox Posts: 774 ✭✭
    I'm not sure how mad i would be if my gold was filled in with platinum


  • << <i>I'm not sure how mad i would be if my gold was filled in with platinum >>



    Notice the date? 1878. Platinum would have been far less valuable than gold.
  • All of this counterfeiting is the main reason I'm only buying gold coin in PCGS or NGC plastic. Seems like it reduces the chances of getting a bogus coin.

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