Someone, please someone tell me why Pete Rose isn't in the Hall of fame!!!!
WeekendHacker
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in Sports Talk
Pete Rose is what he is, Babe Ruth was what he was, Ty Cobb was what he was, Tris Speaker (no saint) was what he was, Willie Mays (with his casino affiliation) was what he was, there are probably more dirty players in the Hall of Fame than we even are privy to knowing what their dirt was. Pete Rose is no exception. He isn't in the hall because his situation became public. Barry Bonds will probably go in the hall, same with Mark McGwire, Sammy Sosa, and (Lord I hope not) Palmeiro. What about Sheffield (I didn't like him even when he was with the Dodgers/Marlins/Padres/Brewers/Braves). I simply believe that Pete Rose should be in the Hall of Fame for what he did for baseball and on the diamond. Positive or Negative, I would like you thoughts.
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morris <><
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This is one of those topics that actually hits home for me. Not the 'Pete Rose' part of it, per se, but the idea of taking your medicine when you screw up. For about four years I had a business partner, and as often happens we became pretty close friends. We'd go fishing together, lend each other our vehicles when one of us had a break down, and so on. Wyatt wasn't part of my inner circle of friends, really, but our relationship had a personal as well as a business side to it.
Anyway, Wyatt's life started deteriorating in about 2000, he got involved in recreational narcotic use and so forth, and in August of 2003 he went back to his apartment and strangled his girlfriend. Apparently she was preparing to leave him, and Wyatt just flipped out. Knowing what I know about his childhood, which was bad enough to make Jerry Springer blush, and the abandonment complex he'd developed as an adult, I could understand-- at least in part-- what happened. But when the judge came down with a 30 yr. sentence with no chance of parole I couldn't feel sorry for him. Now remember, this is someone I knew-- and knew very well. But in the final analysis we've all got to be held accountable, and I see no reason why Pete Rose should be an exception to that.
Evidence never supported that he bet on his own team, or that he did so while he played. I have no problem banning Rose from ever participating in any form of baseball again, but he should be in the hall.
<< <i>F Pete Rose and the goat he rode in on. No reason he should be in the HOF. He bet, he got caught, he has to pay the penalty. >>
He has 4256 reasons to be in the hall, but he should be inducted but still banned frmo baseball.
<< <i>MLB makes exceptions for players all the time - the recently Steve Howe being the perfect example of it.
Evidence never supported that he bet on his own team, or that he did so while he played. I have no problem banning Rose from ever participating in any form of baseball again, but he should be in the hall. >>
So far as I know baseball has never made an exception for somone who bet on the game. If they have at some point done this then I would definitely reconsider my position.
A player with a drug addiction is not the same thing. Baseball made gambling the biggest offense. Drug addiction is treated much like it is in the greater part of society. It is a sickness, the court orders treatment, the person is put on probation, perhaps the judge gives a second chance for a person that relapses in their addiction and so on. Baseball never said once you use drugs, you are out.
You can argue that baseball rules should be this and that--that's fine. The point is, gambling is a huge offense in MLB because the people in charge made it that way. It must be followed. If the people in charge want to make drug addiction a no tolerance rule as well, then it must be done and implemented in the proper procedural way. While lying, spouse abuse and coming home drunk are not good character traits, MLB never stated in its rule book that it had a no tolerance clause for those things.
So, baseball is following the set of rules it has to work with and being consistent about it. I am not arguing that there are not other issues that are in poor taste or destroy the integrity of the game, but until MLB makes rule amendments, all MLB baseball players are subject to what the current rules are.
Steroid use was not illegal in MLB until recently. Any player that violates that rule now is being dealt with. Whoever did it in the past is off home free because no rule in baseball stated it was illegal as strange is it may sound to us. I thought if something was illegal in the country should make it illegal in its institutions too.
BST: Tennessebanker, Downtown1974, LarkinCollector, nendee
<< <i>
Steroid use was not illegal in MLB until recently. Any player that violates that rule now is being dealt with. Whoever did it in the past is off home free because no rule in baseball stated it was illegal as strange is it may sound to us. I thought if something was illegal in the country should make it illegal in its institutions too. >>
While there was no steroid policy in place, using steroids was (before the policy in 03) viewed the same way as cocaine use or any other substance deemed illegal by the US government. A player could no sooner use steroids than they could a line of coke.
<< <i>MLB makes exceptions for players all the time - the recently Steve Howe being the perfect example of it.
Evidence never supported that he bet on his own team, or that he did so while he played. I have no problem banning Rose from ever participating in any form of baseball again, but he should be in the hall. >>
Axtell, I still haven't figured out yet if you just intentionally act stupid or you really are stupid. Anyone who follows baseball even a little bit knows Rose already admitted he bet on his own team. Since you never believe almost anything anyone says here, below is pasted from the Wikipedia, the online encyclopaedia.
<<< In August 1989, three years after he retired as an active player, Rose agreed to a lifetime ban from baseball amidst accusations that he gambled on baseball games while playing for and managing the Reds; some accusations claimed that he bet on, and even against, the Reds. After years of public denial, in 2004 he admitted to betting on, but not against, the Reds. After Rose's ban was instated, the Baseball Hall of Fame had specifically stated that individuals who are banned from the sport are ineligible for induction; previously, those who were banned had been excluded by informal agreement among voters. The issue of his possible reinstatement and election to the Hall remains a contentious one throughout baseball. >>>
Like I said, he should be in the hall, while still banned from baseball. His betting on the game did nothing to take away from his remarkable achievements on the field, and those who say so are delusional at best.
You don't get the moniker for hustling if you are throwing games. You don't have home plate collisions at an ALL STAR GAME if you don't love the game with your soul. And you sure as hell don't set the all time hits record if you are throwing games.
Pete Rose, while a severely flawed individual, absolutely belongs in the hall of fame.
<< <i>My mistake, I didn't hear that in 2004, as part of his apology, he claimed to have bet on his own team.
Like I said, he should be in the hall, while still banned from baseball. His betting on the game did nothing to take away from his remarkable achievements on the field, and those who say so are delusional at best.
You don't get the moniker for hustling if you are throwing games. You don't have home plate collisions at an ALL STAR GAME if you don't love the game with your soul. And you sure as hell don't set the all time hits record if you are throwing games.
Pete Rose, while a severely flawed individual, absolutely belongs in the hall of fame. >>
No problem...just some late night chop busting by stevek
Hey, regardless of what happens with Rose, I'll never forget how he helped my Phils to a World Series victory in 1980. The Phils I don't think could have done it without him. It's just a shame that Rose can't see the obvious that he is an addicted gambler and get some help for it...taking steps such as this would go a long way in helping him get what he says he wants, but unfortunately what he wants now is both his gambling and reinstatement to baseball...as long as he continues gambling, reinstatement simply isn't going to ever happen I don't believe.
<< <i>While there was no steroid policy in place, using steroids was (before the policy in 03) viewed the same way as cocaine use or any other substance deemed illegal by the US government. A player could no sooner use steroids than they could a line of coke >>
that is so true. but a player using coke would get 20 chances to get rehab and to get clean. so why shouldn't a player have several chances to rehab from steroids (bonds,palmerio,sosa,mcgwire) before trying to take all the records they have acomplished.
as far as rose goes i am and always have been a big pete rose fan, but his gambling was an illegal activity since he bet with a bookie as the only legal venue is las vegas.
pete rose excepted a life time ban from baseball so no sympathy
that made him a great player.
Sort of like the invisible asterisk that will go beside the names of the steroid players records. Not officially
recognized but still there as far as many people are concerned.
I think it is probably too late for Rose to ever get in, after a certain number of years doesn't the selection
process go to some veteran players committees and away from the current sportswriter voters?
I hear the veteran committee is hard core anti gambling.
-------------------------
DeutscherGeist
You said it all .I fully agree.
I am a huge Rose fan, but Mr. Robinson said something that I pretty much accept. I think Pete accepts it as well, but there is that hope.
Much like Steve had pointed out, Pete will always be loved in Philly .... and pretty much everywhere else.
i spent a few hours with brooks robinson a few years ago when he was in dallas for an old timers game, and have talked to him on the phone since. he is one of the nicest people around.
On a different note, comparing steroid drug use to cocaine drug use, it's not the same. Yes, they are both taken by choice, but one is used to intentionally enhance performance, recovery from injury, strength training and enhance muscle recovery from lifting weights - the other is used solely for recreational purposes. Although I've never taken either substance, I have no personal experience with these, but why else would someone consume cocaine?
Gambling, like any substance abuse (cocaine, alcohol, marijuana, heroin), is an addiction. There are two types of addiction, psychological and physical. Addictions are all thrown into the same pot (no pun intended) called a 'disease.' I only agree with this half heartedly - after all, you don't acquire this disease, you make a choice to commence the activity that one eventually becomes addicted to. Yes, some individuals are predisposed to weakness and therefore addiction, but they have to make a choice to commence the activity in the first place.
Pete belongs in the hall, I don't really care if he is banned from the game, but how on earth can you have the all time hit king not in the hall of fame.
With that said however, gambling is the forbidden sin in baseball. Remember, this is the same sport that considered throwing Willie Mays and Mickey Mantle out of the Hall because they were doing promotions for casino openings in the early to mid 80's.
Forget blocking him; find out where he lives and go punch him in the nuts. --WalterSobchak 9/12/12
Looking for Al Hrabosky and any OPC Dave Campbells (the ESPN guy)
Both have a laundry list of despicable acts. I just don't understand why people love Rose and hate Bonds.
<< <i>Just because MLB has banned his participation in its activities, does not mean that Rose cannot be in the Hall of Fame. These are two distinct, albeit symbiotic, entities. >>
Incorrect
Why isn't Pete Rose in the Hall of Fame?
As stated in the National Baseball Hall of Fame's Rules for Election, "any player on Baseball's ineligible list shall not be an eligible candidate" for consideration by the Baseball Writers' Association of America (BBWAA) or the Baseball Hall of Fame Committee on Baseball Veterans. Pete Rose was placed on Major League Baseball's ineligible list in 1989 by Commissioner A. Bartlett Giamatti. In order for Rose to become eligible to Hall of Fame voters, the following criteria must be met:
He must apply to the office of the Commissioner for reinstatment to Major League Baseball.
He must be reinstated by the Office of the Commissioner.
He would then be an eligible Hall of Fame candidate for the BBWAA Screening Committee. (See rule 3 of the rules for election to the National Baseball Hall of Fame by members of the Baseball Writers' Association of America.)
If Pete Rose were to be placed on the BBWAA ballot, he would have to receive votes on at least seventy-five percent (75%) of the ballots cast in any one election to be elected to membership in the National Baseball Hall of Fame.
Throughout his career, Pete Rose was a generous supporter of the National Baseball Hall of Fame, donating more than 20 artifacts to the Museum's collections. Many of these artifacts are on display in the Museum.
Rules for Election to the National Baseball Hall of Fame by Members of the Baseball Writers' Association of America (BBWAA)
1. Authorization — By authorization of the Board of Directors of the National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum, Inc., the Baseball Writers' Association of America (BBWAA) is authorized to hold an election every year for the purpose of electing members to the National Baseball Hall of Fame from the ranks of retired baseball players.
2. Electors — Only active and honorary members of the Baseball Writers' Association of America, who have been active baseball writers for at least ten (10) years, shall be eligible to vote. They must have been active as baseball writers and members of the Association for a period beginning at least ten (10) years prior to the date of election in which they are voting.
3. Eligible Candidates — Candidates to be eligible must meet the following requirements:
A baseball player must have been active as a player in the Major Leagues at some time during a period beginning twenty (20) years before and ending five (5) years prior to election.
Player must have played in each of ten (10) Major League championship seasons, some part of which must have been within the period described in 3 (A).
Player shall have ceased to be an active player in the Major Leagues at least five (5) calendar years preceding the election but may be otherwise connected with baseball.
In case of the death of an active player or a player who has been retired for less than five (5) full years, a candidate who is otherwise eligible shall be eligible in the next regular election held at least six (6) months after the date of death or after the end of the five (5) year period, whichever occurs first.
Any player on Baseball's ineligible list shall not be an eligible candidate.
4. Method of Election
BBWAA Screening Committee — A Screening Committee consisting of baseball writers will be appointed by the BBWAA. This Screening Committee shall consist of six members, with two members to be elected at each Annual Meeting for a three-year term. The duty of the Screening Committee shall be to prepare a ballot listing in alphabetical order eligible candidates who (1) received a vote on a minimum of five percent (5%) of the ballots cast in the preceding election or (2) are eligible for the first time and are nominated by any two of the six members of the BBWAA Screening Committee.
Electors may vote for as few as zero (0) and as many as ten (10) eligible candidates deemed worthy of election. Write-in votes are not permitted.
Any candidate receiving votes on seventy-five percent (75%) of the ballots cast shall be elected to membership in the National Baseball Hall of Fame.
5. Voting — Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.
6. Automatic Elections — No automatic elections based on performances such as a batting average of .400 or more for one (1) year, pitching a perfect game or similar outstanding achievement shall be permitted.
7. Time of Election — The duly authorized representatives of the BBWAA shall prepare, date and mail ballots to each elector no later than the 15th day of January in each year in which an election is held. The elector shall sign and return the completed ballot within twenty (20) days. The vote shall then be tabulated by the duly authorized representatives of the BBWAA.
8. Certification of Election Results — The results of the election shall be certified by a representative of the Baseball Writers' Association of America and an officer of the National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum, Inc. The results shall be transmitted to the Commissioner of Baseball. The BBWAA and National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum, Inc. shall jointly release the results for publication.
9. Amendments — The Board of Directors of the National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum, Inc. reserves the right to revoke, alter or amend these rules at any time.
You are absolutely correct in your post. However, the rule not to allow inelligible MLB players for HOF consideration if a Hall of Fame rule, not an MLB one. If the Hall wanted to put Rose in, MLB would technically not be able to stop them. Although, of course they would.
Also, it is funny, how everyone considers alcoholism and drug addiction as a "disease," but when it comes to being addicted to things like smoking and gambling, it is said person's fault, and it is so easy to give it up. I mean, unless you tie someone up, shoot them full of heroin, and that person becomes addicted, then one cannot fault that addict, but how often does that happen? Alcoholics and drug addicts KNOW what can happen, but it is a "disease." So, I guess in Pete Rose's case, it was not in anyway a "disease," it was him committing the ultimate sin of baseball. Steve Howe, the man had 484395739 chances, and each time his "disease" allowed him back, does anyone see a double standard? Granted, Pete Rose should not have bet on baseball, but if all other addictions are considered a disease, then so should his, and he should be in, because he did not know any better!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Also, Pete Rose agreed to a lifetime ban, but from what I always hear, it was with the knowing that he would be back in baseball after a year's time. And what is so wrong about Pete making a few dollars more from a few bets, AS LONG AS IT WAS NOT AGAINST HIS OWN TEAM, sure, he made some money in his career, not quite as much as he would be making now, but I can guarantee that baseball made a whole hell of alot more money off his efforts. I also applaud Pete Rose for coming out with his book at the time he did, baseball used him for all he was worth, so I do not blame him one bit for using them!!!!!!!!!!!!
<< <i>Why is it that people want Pete Rose in the Hall so badly and to keep Barry Bonds out so badly?
Both have a laundry list of despicable acts. I just don't understand why people love Rose and hate Bonds. >>
Bonds cheated the game and himself to get his numbers.
Rose, did not cheat the game to get his numbers.
I think this is why there is such a distinct difference in how the 2 players are perceived.
Not correct.
. And what is so wrong about Pete making a few dollars more from a few bets, AS LONG AS IT WAS NOT AGAINST HIS OWN TEAM
Well, lets see. He could be making deals with players on other teams to throw a game so he
could have an advantage etc.
<< <i>Then if Pete would make deals with other players, then those players would be just as guilty, and Pete should be out of baseball in any form, but I never heard he did, so that thought is out of the question!!!! As I said, I always hear gambling is a "disease," but it is not in Pete's case!!!! >>
Then if Pete would make deals with other players, then those players would be just as guilty, and Pete should be out of baseball in any form, but I never heard he did, so that thought is out of the question!!!!
Just because you never heard that he did there is still the possibility that he or anyone else could
conspire that way to throw games. Why would you want to allow that kind of possibility? That is why gambling on baseball is a big no no.
Also, again, how can he lose his HOF eligibility, when he was NEVER eligible in the first place? Baseball used him as a tool, he agreed to a lifetime ban, and he agreed, thinking he would be back in a year's time, and I heard that a million times. Nobody will never know the full truth to it, since Giamati died.
<< <i>You are absolutely correct in your post. However, the rule not to allow inelligible MLB players for HOF consideration if a Hall of Fame rule, not an MLB one. If the Hall wanted to put Rose in, MLB would technically not be able to stop them. Although, of course they would. >>
Correct. Up until the HOF put these rules in place there was nothing keeping Joe Jackson out of the HOF. He could have been voted in but I believe it was one of those "unwritten rules" that kept him out.
Same man, the sins of one era are overlooked for the pure glory of another era.
Good grief. Sorry, I don't buy this line of reasoning at all.
Kind of hard to help someone who hides their addiction and when finally confronted with it denied for years
that it ever took place and then finally admitted it when he had a book to sell.
A person that needed help but obviously had problems beyond just the gambling. Not a class act.
<< <i>Good grief. Sorry, I don't buy this line of reasoning at all. >>
"If the glove don't fit, you must acquit," that is a line of reasoning I do not buy, yet, it was bought in a court of law, so therefore, O.J. is not in jail. I never saw Pete Rose go to court for anything other then tax evasion, perhaps that sinner outta prove what he did and did not do in court!!!!!!
<< <i>Never thought someone with a disease can be considered a sinner!!! I guess Gamber's Annonymous is a waste of time and effort, because they do not have a disease!!! Hell, Steve Howe is a saint compared to the disgrace which is Pete Rose, is that the thought!!! Also, you are saying, just because he bet as a manager, that he "must have" done so as a player? I guess society does believe in guilt until innocense is proven!!!! >>
I never said that at all. I think you need to slow down a little and read more carefully.
<< <i>If baseball really cared about the man who practically gave his life to it, then they would have found him counseling to help control his gambling addiction!!!
Kind of hard to help someone who hides their addiction and when finally confronted with it denied for years
that it ever took place and then finally admitted it when he had a book to sell.
A person that needed help but obviously had problems beyond just the gambling. Not a class act. >>
Pete Rose is or was addicted to gambling, there are heroin addicts that probably still say they can kick the habit anytime they want. Fact is, Pete Rose is out of baseball, because he gambled, before he ever said that he did. Baseball should have sought him counseling even if he did not admit to it, perhaps he could have stayed in baseball then, if he started a program with a therapist. Make the rules like this, go to counseling whether you think you need it or not, we think you need it. If he did not attend, then bye bye Pete, if he did do it, ok, your disease will hopefully be overtaken and managed. How many athletes are sent to drug rehab, and still get to stay in the game while they are in rehab, or after they finish rehab. To an addict, gambling is like a drug also, and not many addicts tend to say they are addicted, usually takes an addict to admit to it, when they are in trouble and need help!!!!!!!!
<< <i>
<< <i>Good grief. Sorry, I don't buy this line of reasoning at all. >>
"If the glove don't fit, you must acquit," that is a line of reasoning I do not buy, yet, it was bought in a court of law, so therefore, O.J. is not in jail. I never saw Pete Rose go to court for anything other then tax evasion, perhaps that sinner outta prove what he did and did not do in court!!!!!! >>
OK, if you say so. This whole conversation is getting more bizarre by the minute.
<< <i>Same man, the sins of one era are overlooked for the pure glory of another era.
Good grief. Sorry, I don't buy this line of reasoning at all. >>
Who is to question what is a sin and what is not a sin? In Pete's diseased mind, he was not sinning, he was getting his high!!! I guess there is a double standard in society, as opposed to sport. Illegal gambling has a key word, illegal, anyone who has a poker party, makes a $5 bet with a friend, football or NCAA basketball pools, anything on the lines of that, is a sinner, and should go to jail, because laws are laws!!! Who is to say there is a difference in sports or in private!!!! I think having sexual relations with an underage child is sickening, and the courts should follow that too, but in the case of a female predator, is is overlooked because the boy was getting his gollies, whereas, if it was a man, said man should be castrated before he is ever found guilty in a court of law!!!
Second note - All politically correctness aside - Proof that the Hall of Fame is separate from MLB as an organization; players from the Negro Leagues are in the hall of fame when they never played in the MLB. They are deserving for enshrinement for their contributions to Baseball. I am simply saying the MLB and HOF are completely separate organizations.
<< <i>Baseball didn't hold up their end of the bargain. The Dowd report stated if Pete Rose accepted a lifetime ban from baseball, the Dowd report would b never be released to the public, well, guess what, the Dowd report was released and Rose is still banned from the game. Where is the fairness in that?
Second note - All politically correctness aside - Proof that the Hall of Fame is separate from MLB as an organization; players from the Negro Leagues are in the hall of fame when they never played in the MLB. They are deserving for enshrinement for their contributions to Baseball. I am simply saying the MLB and HOF are completely separate organizations. >>
You are correct, I expressed that also to some extent, (except the Dowd report and Negro Leagues), and Pete Rose was screwed, regardless of what he did!!!!
You sound like a passionate, knowledgeable fan. But I'm giving you two minutes for excessive use of exclamation marks !!!!!!
This had nothing to do with fairness, or justice, and everything to do with an egocentric commissioner who wanted to put his lasting stamp on the game of baseball.
The fact Rose is not in the hall of fame is unbelievable.
Word was in collectors circles that he had been selling off every possession he had including his MVP trophy, golden glove awards, etc. Why?, because he owed so much money on his gambling debts that his life had been threatened.
Go to Cooperstown, you will see his name on the "MLB hit leader", he is also on display for the "NL game hitting streak of 44", he is on ther MVP displays
So his contributions are recognized by MLB HOF. However he does not have a bust there, that's OK! He agreed to a life-time ban....
He isnt in the HOF cause he is a liar and a cheat and he bet on baseball, no doubt about it. Maybe when he is old, frail and dying they will elect him. Let him sweat a few more years.
Gambling addiction is a tough addiction. But until he quits gambling, and becomes a spokesman against gambling, there is simply no chance he will get elected to the Hall - case closed.