Very underated pitcher......Dave Steib. The guy had no-hit stuff virtually every time he took the mound over a 5 or 6 year period in the early '80s (in fact, he did throw a no-hitter and lost two or three more in the ninth). It was his misfortune to toil in amonimity for the Blue Jays prior to their successful years. Had he been with a good team we would probably be discussing whether or not he belongs in Cooperstown.
I also agree that Frank Robinson does not get the recognition that he probably deserves. Gawd, if he had been a Yankee he would be mentioned in the same breath as Mantle & DiMaggio.
Eyebone
"I'm not saying I'm the best manager in the world, but I'm in the top one." Brian Clough
His lack of walks is offset by the team he played with, not much support to drive him in, and mostly by the fact that if you could hit .340 on the avearage, swinging away , why not hit the ball ? >>
The greats of his time would hit .340 AND draw the walks, while making less outs...that is the difference. He is an excellent player no doubt, but not quite as good as a .340 average suggests, for various reasons. First and foremost people severly overvalue batting average, and I believe that is where the overrating is coming in. Again, it is hard to say 'overrated' unless you know exactly where he is BEING RATED.
As impressive as a .400 average sounds, remember that apporximately 24 guys batted .400 before the day he retired. Not saying it isn't a good feat, but more a product of the time than anything.
<< <i>Again, it is hard to say 'overrated' unless you know exactly where he is BEING RATED. >>
Bill James' top 10 first baseman eligible for but NOT in the HOF, in order:
Don Mattingly Will Clark Dick Allen Keith Hernandez Norm Cash Mickey Vernon George Sisler Boog Powell Cecil Cooper Dolph Camilli
I think Mattingly is a HOFer, Allen is an upper-tier HOFer if ability is all that counts, and Will Clark and Keith Hernandez deserve serious consideration. After that, I don't see a HOFer. So, for those who have never heard of Sisler I would agree that he is underrated - he's too good to be forgotten in history. But, for those who know him as a Hall of Famer I don't think he could be considered underrated; the fact that he's in means he's overrated to me.
To his credit, from 1917 to 1922 Sisler was great and in 1920 and 1922 he was phenomenal; to me, though, that's not enough to get a first baseman in the HOF. And I've read things about his defense, too, but there is nothing in his fielding stats to indicate that people's perceptions were true. There is no indication, for example, that he made any more plays than other first basemen of the time. The stats show him as an average fielder, no more.
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
Sisler was heralded by the sportswriters of his time as the BEST defensive first sacker, mere stats on defensive are far more meaningless than offensive stats. George could make plays many could not even get to, he handled many more tough plays than most and thus had a few more errors than most. Ted Klu lead the 1B position in feilding one year, yet no one would say he was a better feilder than Hodges, same with Sisler in his era.
Cobb and Sisler are the only .400 hitteres to ever lead in stolen bases as well, how can that be overlooked ?
By the way for Bill James' information and any others, Sisler was elected to the baseball hall of fame in 1939, quite deserving yet still quite under-rated .
This aint no party,... this aint no disco,.. this aint no fooling around.
After hearing about Sislers lack of walks, I had to look up his stats on baseball-reference and have to say I was impressed that his walks always out numbered his strikeouts in every year of major league ball. Though his OBP is not that much higher than the league, his other numbers make up for it. We have become used to first sackers having better power numbers, but his HR total is very respectable for the era he played in. We dont know his mind set about playing baseball, but until Ruth came along and put the emphasis on HR's, Sislers numbers are the type you would expect Cobb to put up in the dead ball era. Maybe if he was a second baseman, this would all be moot............
Definitely Frank Robinson, such awesome stats and accomplishments... Also Andre Dawson gets overlooked a lot...didnt help playing for the expos or playing hurt for many years, but he was a class guy.
Comments
I also agree that Frank Robinson does not get the recognition that he probably deserves. Gawd, if he had been a Yankee he would be mentioned in the same breath as Mantle & DiMaggio.
Eyebone
<< <i>Dallas,
His lack of walks is offset by the team he played with, not much support to drive him in, and mostly by the fact that if you could hit .340 on the avearage, swinging away , why not hit the ball ?
The greats of his time would hit .340 AND draw the walks, while making less outs...that is the difference. He is an excellent player no doubt, but not quite as good as a .340 average suggests, for various reasons. First and foremost people severly overvalue batting average, and I believe that is where the overrating is coming in. Again, it is hard to say 'overrated' unless you know exactly where he is BEING RATED.
As impressive as a .400 average sounds, remember that apporximately 24 guys batted .400 before the day he retired. Not saying it isn't a good feat, but more a product of the time than anything.
<< <i>Again, it is hard to say 'overrated' unless you know exactly where he is BEING RATED. >>
Bill James' top 10 first baseman eligible for but NOT in the HOF, in order:
Don Mattingly
Will Clark
Dick Allen
Keith Hernandez
Norm Cash
Mickey Vernon
George Sisler
Boog Powell
Cecil Cooper
Dolph Camilli
I think Mattingly is a HOFer, Allen is an upper-tier HOFer if ability is all that counts, and Will Clark and Keith Hernandez deserve serious consideration. After that, I don't see a HOFer. So, for those who have never heard of Sisler I would agree that he is underrated - he's too good to be forgotten in history. But, for those who know him as a Hall of Famer I don't think he could be considered underrated; the fact that he's in means he's overrated to me.
To his credit, from 1917 to 1922 Sisler was great and in 1920 and 1922 he was phenomenal; to me, though, that's not enough to get a first baseman in the HOF. And I've read things about his defense, too, but there is nothing in his fielding stats to indicate that people's perceptions were true. There is no indication, for example, that he made any more plays than other first basemen of the time. The stats show him as an average fielder, no more.
Cobb and Sisler are the only .400 hitteres to ever lead in stolen bases as well, how can that be overlooked ?
By the way for Bill James' information and any others, Sisler was elected to the baseball hall of fame in 1939, quite deserving yet still quite under-rated .