Most underrated player in MLB history

Boopotts

Does everyone agree that it's Stan Musial, or are there dissenting opinions? I occasionally lean towards Hornsby when this talk comes up, although I really don't know enough about his career to feel confident when speaking about him. But Musial sticks out as someone who never seems to have gotten his due.

frankhardy

Musial is a good one.

I know this may raise some eyebrows, but I believe Hank Aaron is underrated. He is the all time HR leader AND RBI leader, yet some people don't put him in the top 4 of all time (which he is).

tkd7

Warren Spahn. 363 wins and he didn't even make the hall on the first ballot.

Axtell

I'd have to agree and go with Aaron.

Yes he's the all time HR champ, but you never hear his name mentioned among the all time greats. He has over 3700 hits, and never hit 50+ home runs in a season.

dallasactuary

I think it's interesting that Musial's name comes up so often, especially in light of the Jeter debate in the other thread. I grew up in St. Louis and from the giant Musial statue outside Busch Stadium to the constant interviews with him whenever the Cardinals made the postseason the greatness of Musial was never seriously questioned; it didn't hurt that practically everyone in the city had met the man at his restaurant.

I defer to the majority who appear to believe that Jeter receives more attention and praise than he deserves, but I have to say that my own experience has been different. Maybe down here in Texas the exploits of a Yankee aren't considered as newsworthy as they are on the coasts; my own experience in St. Louis would lead me to think that Musial was, if anything, a bit overrated so I know that perspectives can be different depending on where you're living.


My own pick for most underrated ever would be Honus Wagner. Outside of hardcore fans, few people have even heard of him apart from his face being on the most expensive baseball card. In the original HOF vote, Wagner got exactly the same number of votes as Babe Ruth and more than either Johnson or Mathewson, which tells you what the people who saw him play thought of him. Nobody suffers more from the casual fan's ignorance of the difference between the game in Wagner's time and the game they see today. Nobody suffers more from the absence then of awards: Wagner has 3 MVPs but would probably have 10 if they were given out his whole career; he has no Gold Gloves, but would probably have 15 or more if they existed then. I think most fans recognize that Musial was a top-20 player, a slight slap at a player who is probably in the top-10, but I don't think many fans recognize Wagner at all, an enormous slap at a top-5 player.

Boopotts

I'd never considered Wagner before. How about Rickey Henderson?


Also, a question for Dallas. Where in St. Louis did you grow up? I was raised in Webster Groves, so I'm curious as to what neck of the woods you're from.

dallasactuary

<< <i>I'd never considered Wagner before. How about Rickey Henderson?


Also, a question for Dallas. Where in St. Louis did you grow up? I was raised in Webster Groves, so I'm curious as to what neck of the woods you're from. >>



Straight up Rock Hill / McKnight a few miles. Our house was in Richmond Heights but in the Ladue School District - which means I wasn't rich but everyone I knew was.

frankhardy

<< <i>I think it's interesting that Musial's name comes up so often, especially in light of the Jeter debate in the other thread. I grew up in St. Louis and from the giant Musial statue outside Busch Stadium to the constant interviews with him whenever the Cardinals made the postseason the greatness of Musial was never seriously questioned; it didn't hurt that practically everyone in the city had met the man at his restaurant.

I defer to the majority who appear to believe that Jeter receives more attention and praise than he deserves, but I have to say that my own experience has been different. Maybe down here in Texas the exploits of a Yankee aren't considered as newsworthy as they are on the coasts; my own experience in St. Louis would lead me to think that Musial was, if anything, a bit overrated so I know that perspectives can be different depending on where you're living.


My own pick for most underrated ever would be Honus Wagner. Outside of hardcore fans, few people have even heard of him apart from his face being on the most expensive baseball card. In the original HOF vote, Wagner got exactly the same number of votes as Babe Ruth and more than either Johnson or Mathewson, which tells you what the people who saw him play thought of him. Nobody suffers more from the casual fan's ignorance of the difference between the game in Wagner's time and the game they see today. Nobody suffers more from the absence then of awards: Wagner has 3 MVPs but would probably have 10 if they were given out his whole career; he has no Gold Gloves, but would probably have 15 or more if they existed then. I think most fans recognize that Musial was a top-20 player, a slight slap at a player who is probably in the top-10, but I don't think many fans recognize Wagner at all, an enormous slap at a top-5 player. >>







Interesting perspecitve on Musial. I think that when we say underrated (or overrated for that matter), we mean nationwide. Sure, in St Louis, Musial is not underrated, but, in my opinion, he is very underrated nationwide.

Downtown1974

IMO, Harmon Killebrew is the most underrated player!

Skinpinch

I can't see Stan Musial as being underrated, at least from any basebal fan I've ever met. Same for Aaron, Wagner, etc...Those guys are so talked about, it is as if they never made outs.

Killebrew is a GOOD ONE though, as he ALWAYS gets hammered by BASEBALL FANS as not being that 'good'. Their evidence is their misconception on the actual importance of batting average and strikeouts. He constantly gets underrated by fans as a result.

Ken Singleton is underrated.
Dwight Evans is underrated.

1420sports

Wagner has 3 MVPs

he does?

Here is my list of underrated: Aaron, Musial, Frank Robinson

There are more, but these three really stick out.

megatron

I'll focus on post WWII HOF hitters that are underrated. (Not in any order)

1. Frank Robinson - the fact that only one member mentioned this guy shows how underrated he truly is
2. Harmon Killebrew
3. Stan Musial
4. Hank Aaron

onlyanumber

This debate cannot be complete without Fergie Jenkins. 3000Ks and under a thousand walks. Pitched 267 complete games out of his 594 starts. Won 20 games six straight seasons. Sure there are other pitchers that put up better numbers, but Jenkins is always overlooked as a complete pitcher.

Writer11

Skin mentioned Dewey Evans. I was dumbfounded when this guy dropped off the Hall of Fame ballot on his first year of eligibility (less than 5% of writers had named him on their ballot). I mean, the guy may not be a Hall of Famer, but he deserved to be on the ballot for a few years at least. I think Dwight Evans is very underrated.

How about Vada Pinson? Al Oliver?

bri2327

I think Musial is a great choice. Maybe he is mentioned or has received his fare share of hoopla in his neck of the woods, but I dont think nationally he gets near what he deserves. If anyone wants to talk about a guy whose legacy would be that of a god had he played in a big market on the east coast he is the man.

Honus Wagner is a great choice too. Outside of a small circle he is only known as the guy with the valuable card. I am sure him playing in a time where there is nobody left alive who saw him hurts his chances for on the field recognition.

Certainly Frank Robinson has to be included, and I agree with what megatron pointed out. The fact he is rarely even discussed is more proof of his being underrated than anything.

Wabittwax

A good way to determine this is to have a thread where everyone lists their top 5 of all time. If you get enough responses, you'll see which big names are being left off the list.

Edited to say: I'll start the thread

cardfan07

Before I saw all the posts, I thought Frank Robinson. 4th on the all time homerun list until passed by Bonds and Sosa. Triple crown, world series rings...

WinPitcher

How are guys named Musial and Fr. Robby underrated? they are in the HOF and are considered to be greats of the game. Am I missing something here?

Even us in NY knew how great these 2 guys were.

Steve

edited to add: I did not even respond regarding Aaron. <eyeroll>

Brian48

<< <i>I'd have to agree and go with Aaron.

Yes he's the all time HR champ, but you never hear his name mentioned among the all time greats. He has over 3700 hits, and never hit 50+ home runs in a season. >>



I'd have to agree with this one. No one really noticed Aaron until one day it became clear he had a shot at Ruth's record. Although he got his share of notice, he never really had any single ultra-notable seasons like Ruth, Maris, McGuire, or Bonds where he completely blew everyone else away. Instead, he strung together several very good ones and played under the radar for most of his career. The difference here was that he was able to keep it up consistency and it paid off in the end.

BigRedMachine

Frank Robinson, Steve Carlton, and Eddie Murray.

All in the Hall, I know, but still underrated.

And all extremely underrated in the sport card hobby. Check out their RC prices compared to others in their era. And check out their stats!!!

Heck, when Murray retired with 3000+ hits and 500+ homeruns, only Willie Mays and Hank Aaron had accomplished the same. Yet no one's all time list is going to go 1)Mays 2)Aaron 3)Murray.

shawn

Axtell

<< <i>
I'd have to agree with this one. No one really noticed Aaron until one day it became clear he had a shot at Ruth's record. Although he got his share of notice, he never really had any single ultra-notable seasons like Ruth, Maris, McGuire, or Bonds where he completely blew everyone else away. Instead, he strung together several very good ones and played under the radar for most of his career. The difference here was that he was able to keep it up consistency and it paid off in the end. >>



Let's also keep in mind the death threats and hate mail he played under as he approached (and broke) Ruth's record.

baseballjeff

Does Barry Bonds count? Sure he's put up some good numbers, but do anyone really like him?

fiveniner

I would say that Musial was not mentioned as often as some of the greats however I would not say he was underated.
How about Nellie Fox.He wasnt a home run hitter but did lead a very average team at best to the 59 World Series and was a leader throughout his career.This is my opinion of an underated player.Killebrew and McCovey are right up there also.

Wabittwax

Well, after seeing the lists on the other thread, I think is has to be almost any player who played after 1976. Those lists are like a who's who of dead grandpas. I think Bonds is the most underrated because he's the best player since Aaron and didn't make it onto anybody's list.

JoeBanzai

Killebrew and Hornsby.

I will also mention Musial because I think he could have possibly been the best all-around player of them all. He rarely gets mentioned for that, even if he is usually top five or top ten. Great numbers year after year, great defense and great speed. I am not sure about his arm as he hurt it early in his career changing him from a pitcher to an outfielder. Also by all reports was a truly great person.

JB

aro13

Underrated by position:
C- Ted Simmons
1B - Will Clark
2B - Bobby Grich
SS - My all-time underrated player Vern Stephens
3B - Ron Santo
OF - Tim Raines
OF - Dale Murphy
OF - Dave Parker
SP - Greg Maddux
RP - Dan Quisenberry

Murphy and Parker got plenty of pub when they played but now they are virtually not talked about when HOF talk comes up or great players from the past.
I always thought Simmons had a decent shot at the Hall and was buying up his rookie cards for a while but apparently nobody else thought so. Maddux is hardly mentioned as an all-time great but only Clemens, Pedro and Randy can claim to be anywhere as good in the last 20 years.

Boopotts

<< <i>Well, after seeing the lists on the other thread, I think is has to be almost any player who played after 1976. Those lists are like a who's who of dead grandpas. I think Bonds is the most underrated because he's the best player since Aaron and didn't make it onto anybody's list. >>




I think the reason for that is due to the fact that it takes a while before you feel confident that you've put a player's career in its proper perspective. Take Bonds for instance; is he really the best player since Aaron? Better, say, then Rickey Henderson? He may very well be, but it's hard to know whether any judgments we pass now are simply the result of our evaluation of his career or if they're tainted by our feelings for him.

DirtyHarry

I don't view it that any player in the HOF can be "under rated". Sure...guys not in major markets at their heyday are perhaps "under appreciated", but not under rated. Guys like Musial, Killebrew and Aaron fit the bill in the appreciation arena.

I don't have a firm suggestion on this one, but guys like Roger Maris, Rocky Colavito, Dale Murphy and Jim Rice come to mind.

BigRedMachine

<< <i>I don't view it that any player in the HOF can be "under rated". >>



I just don't agree with this. The reason is, there are plenty of threads on here about who should be in the hall of fame and who should not be. There are guys in the HOF who half the people here think shouldn't be in, and that makes them more underrated than other guys



<< <i>How are guys named Musial and Fr. Robby underrated? >>



From Joe Orlando and the Top 200 Sportscards book......"If I had to pick the most underrated player in baseball history, it might be Frank Robinson. He was the first player to win the MVP award in both leagues, he clubbed 586 homers, just missed 3,000 hits with 2,943, won the Triple Crown in 1966, had good speed, was a good outfielder,...."

And I'll go back to Eddie Murray. 500 HR, 3000 hits, accomplished by only three people, and the other two are Willie Mays and Hank Aaron. Yet if you made a list of the top 10, heck 20 players or hitters, how many of you would include Murray? I'm not sure I would. But those are impressive stats, and even though he, and Frank Robinson, are in the Hall of Fame, they don't get the credit Mays, Mantle, Aaron, Bonds, etc. get as being one of the best. Whether they deserve the credit is up for another discussion, but their stats are comparable, and they simply don't.

IMO, that makes them underrated.

shawn

DirtyHarry

BigRedMeister - would agree on Frank Robby.....the most underrated Hof'er of all time. The dude acheived the Triple Crown in both leagues. But, as fan, I acknowledge this. Eddie Murray is good, from a longevity factor.

Skinpinch

<< <i>Well, after seeing the lists on the other thread, I think is has to be almost any player who played after 1976. Those lists are like a who's who of dead grandpas. I think Bonds is the most underrated because he's the best player since Aaron and didn't make it onto anybody's list. >>



A VERY wise observation!! Its hard to say Bonds is underrated though.

But kudos to BigRedMachine for bringing up guys like Murray. It isn't a stretch by any means to think that the best first basemen in the most competitive era in baseball history couldn't put up Gehrig-esque numbers given the same playing environment that Gehrig experienced, or rather benefitted from in his time.

It also isn't a stretch by any imagination that Mike Schimdt would have outhomered many teams in 1980/81, given the same playing environment that Babe Ruth enjoyed. I've run through that exercise a bit, so don't laugh at that thought.

The best ever lists ALWAYS are dominated by the Pre war guys. This is based on the information we are weened on, but not necessarily reality. It is quite possible, when looked at thoroughly and deeply, that the debate of best ever may very well center between the Mick vs. Mike Schimdt. But based on the way people are fed information, the guys from the 20's and 30's will ALWAYS be the best ever, and that isn't going to change. How logical is that?

I sure as heck wish my mom had some of that breast milk that those ladies in the early 1900's had! I guess all the moms in the baby boom era didn't have the right milk to create these super baseball players like the early 1900's did. You would think that out of the millions of more people born in the 50's/60's, that they would at least GET ONE PLAYER onto that all time list to compete with the plethora of players from the pre war era.

It isn't just hitters, but pitchers too. Based on the environment created monsters of W. Johnson, Cy Young, and Mathewson, nobody EVER has a chance of joing that group. Things that make you go HMMMMM.

yawie99

A baseball deity in my book, Musial isn't underrated. Sure, if he had played in New York he might've been the one marrying Marilyn Monroe or might have been the one to whom our nation turned its lonely eyes, but I think most reasonably knowledgeable baseball fans recognize his status us one of the true all-time greats.

Besides, if you're widely considered one of the most underappreciated players in the game's history, you're not really that underappreciated.

WinPitcher

From Joe Orlando and the Top 200 Sportscards book......"If I had to pick the most underrated player in baseball history, it might be Frank Robinson. He was the first player to win the MVP award in both leagues, he clubbed 586 homers, just missed 3,000 hits with 2,943, won the Triple Crown in 1966, had good speed, was a good outfielder,...."

Well I guess if Joe sez it, it must be fact.


Steve

Wabittwax

<< <i>It isn't just hitters, but pitchers too. Based on the environment created monsters of W. Johnson, Cy Young, and Mathewson, nobody EVER has a chance of joing that group. Things that make you go HMMMMM. >>



You know, now that I think about it, I couldn't imagine Walter Johnson, Cy Young, or Mathewson ever absolutely mowing down batters with 103 MPH fastballs the way the Randy Johnson does. Or having the immaculate control and junk that Maddux can throw. I think too much is placed on stats rather than pure talent. I would bet anything that if Randy Johnson was pitching in 1910, we would be talking about him being the greatest ever. I don't think those batters would stand a chance against him.

GlynRParson

Underrated HOFers
Frank Robison
Jimmie Foxx
Ralph Kiner
Lou Brock


non Hofers
Dave Parker
Bill Madlock
Dwight Evans
Tim Raines
Bert Blyleven


Overrated
Cal Ripken Jr
Bobby Doerr
Phil Rizzuto
Nolan Ryan

GlynRParson

aro13 it is hard to argue with that list (if you are only including nonhofers) though Maddux is a shoe in when he retires, and is the only one i would question as being underrated.

frankhardy

Hee hee hee!

Sports Illustraded just did a poll. I heard about it all day on ESPN radio. They polled 370 major league players about the most over rated and most under rated players in baseball.

Number one over rated? Derek Jeter

Number one under rated? Michael Young.

I thought it very interesting that 370 major leaguers agree with me.


Edited to say oops! Wrong thread. I thought this was the most overrated thread. I will copy.

WinPitcher

Actually..................

of 470 major leaguers polled 9 percent (52) voted that jeter was most overrated.

steve

frankhardy

winpither,

Reply in the "overrated" thread.




Hey, how about Lance Berkman as the most underrated? This guy continually puts up numbers.

Writer11

I see Will Clark being listed an underrated in this thread. I always thought he was overrated. In my humble opinion, Al Oliver is the most underrated first baseman of all-time.

tennesseebanker

Ok, Ill chime in here with a few guys I think fit the underrated category.

Dave Concepcion
Napoleon lajoie
Mel Ott
Hank Greenberg
Ted Kluzewski
Ferguson Jenkins
Jr Richard
Don Wilson
And Many More !

dontippet

Here's one for you. How about Rafael Palmeiro, pre drug test era? I got into baseball heavily in '85. Palmeiro started in '86 or '87 along with my other great rookies, yet it was only when he got to 400 homeruns that anybody ever took notice of him, including me. Until this time I always thought of him as lesser of a player as other "great" '87 rookies (Canseco, Clark, Sierra, Larkin, etc...). Now after the drug test fiasco, he could probably make the overrated list also.

Don

coinkat

Underrated?

How about some great players that haven't been mentioned yet:

Billy Williams

Tony Oliva

Rod Carew

Pete Rose

Yaz

As for pitchers:

Juan Marishall

jaxxr

Most underrated HOFers., hitter George Sisler, pitcher Ed Walsh

Non- HOFers., hitter Roger Maris, pitcher Smokey Joe Wood

Robeson

I agree with Bert Blyleven, he was a great pitcher. How about Bob Feller and Al Kaline? Brooks Robinson, Billy Williams, and Willie McCovey were also great. For more modern players, I like Steve Garvey or Andre Dawson.

interchanges

Always thought Bill Madlock never got a fair shake.

BigRedMachine

Was watching ESPN classic tonight and they had the Top 20 Underrated Sports Guys of All Time.

Many of the guys we mentioned in baseball were on the list, including Edgar Martinez, Juan Marichel, Jack Morris, Jim Rice, and Andre Dawson.

#4 was Frank Robinson

MVP in the National League, MVP in the American League, MVP of an All-Star game, MVP of a World Series, Triple Crown Winner, Rookie of the Year, nearly 3000 hits, nearly 600 home runs........

and when the MLB had an All Century Team a couple of years back, Robinson didn't make it!!

BigRedMachine

List is over....Stan Musial was #1 most underrated player on the list.

Preacher Roe said his best way to deal with Stan the Man was throw him four balls and then try to pick him off.

Other sports guys on the list; Harry Carson, Don Hutson, Curtis Martin, George Gervin, Joe Dumars, etc.

Pretty interesting, check it out if you get the chance.

There's a round table discussion of the list on afterwards. One guy asks how Musial can make 20 all star games and be underrated. Another asks why Eddie Murray isn't on the list.

That's the fun part of these lists. Whether on ESPN or this message board, we've all got our own opinions.

shawn

DrNguyenVanFalk

Most underrated position player: Dick Allen (although the arguments for Frank Robinson are pretty convincing).

Most underrated pitcher: Grover Cleveland Alexander

dallasactuary

<< <i>Most underrated HOFers., hitter George Sisler, pitcher Ed Walsh

>>



Jack, I know we've gone several rounds on Walsh already, but I do agree that he is underrated because nobody knows who he is and he is very definitely a HOF level pitcher.

But, honestly, George Sisler would be on my top 5 most overrated list. As high as his B.A. was, he was apparently allergic to taking a walk and so he wasn't on base all that much more often than anybody else. He also played his home games in what was little more than an oversized dollhouse for a left handed hitter.

Some stats to ponder: for his entire career, Sisler got on base a grand total of 207 times more than the average hitter would have given his at bats. For perspective, the same number for some non-HOFers would be 323 for Oliva, 380 for Dwight Evans, 309 for Roy White, 255 for Harold Baines and 370 for Gene Tenace. I honestly believe that each of these players was about as good as Sisler.

There is another group of non-HOFers, including Bobby Grich (386) and Ken Singleton (531), that I believe were significantly better players than Sisler. When you start throwing in the non-HOFers with power (Dick Allen, Jimmy Wynn, Ron Santo,etc.) my list of players better than Sisler but not in the HOF would probably be several dozen strong.

I will grant you that Sisler was great for 5 or 6 years, but he was poor to mediocre for the rest of his career, a fact that was masked by the park he played in (in 1925 Sisler hit .345; sounds good until you realize he got on base 4 fewer times than an average hitter would have). I think the fact that he got in the HOF at all is enough to keep him off an overrated list.

jaxxr

Dallas,

You are a fine poster and I do sincerly value your opinions/ideas, however we do disagree on George Sisler quite a bit.

George not only had or still has the record for most hits in a 154 game season, he did lead in SBs twice and was second 2 or 3 times. If some one today could hit .400 AND lead the league in stolen bases, don't you think he would be considered a baseball legend, immortal, ultimate superstar, Etc., ???

In 1922 Sisler hit .420 , stole 51 bases, got 246 hits , scored 134 runs, and hit 18 triples ALL league leading numbers.
He also was second in total bases, and in the top five in RBIs, doubles, and Slg. Pct.

These figures do not appear to be of someone "over-rated" , even though most casual baseball fans hardly know who Sisler was.

In 1920 George was second to the Babe in HRs and Slg. Pct., yet lead the entire AL in BA (.420 quite nice ), and total bases.

A lifetime BA of .340 !!!!, if done in triple A ball that would be a very highly rated feat.

Sisler was known at the time to be the best defensive firstbaseman around, not by stats, but by his quickness and speed which allowed him to make plays others would merely let go by them. His lack of walks is offset by the team he played with, not much support to drive him in, and mostly by the fact that if you could hit .340 on the avearage, swinging away , why not hit the ball ? George only struck out over 29 times twice in a season ( 30 and 37 ).

George Sisler could do it all, and very well, yet as I said before most fans are not aware of his accomplishments.