What's the real grade on my 34D heavy Motto? Update

09sVDB · April 18, 2006 9:30AM

I had a dealer resubmit a previously PCGS graded(we cracked it) MS64 Heavy Motto 1934D Washington Qtr to PCGS. It was the same dealer that I bought the coin from a little over a year ago. The coin was very original with nice lavender toning and very close to 65. The grades came in and they BB'd it for questionable color!The dealer has offered to resubmit, which we will. If it should get BB'd they will refund my purchase price.

The coin was submitted in May to NGC and came back a 63. Cracked and resubmitted to PCGS. Yesterday it graded a 63!

WACoinGuy · April 18, 2006 9:34AM

<< What's going on? >>

Sounds like what's going on is that you've found a dealer who's willing to stand behind their coins. Definitely a good thing...

Bochiman · April 18, 2006 9:35AM

I think that is the harsh reality today, with all the coin doctors getting better and better, the services are being very cautious at times.

My take is that, if it is toned, and you have it already holdered, and are concerned or unwilling to risk a BB, then don't crack it out. Not great, I know, but we see what is happening.

30AnvZ28 · April 18, 2006 9:38AM

That sucks man... but at least your dealer is a stand up guy.

Barry · April 18, 2006 9:49AM

<< I had a dealer resubmit a previously PCGS graded(we cracked it) MS64 Heavy Motto 1934D Washington Qtr. It was the same dealer that I bought the coin from a little over a year ago. The coin was very original with nice lavender toning and very close to 65. The grades came in and they BB'd it for questionable color!The dealer has offered to resubmit, which we will. If it should get BB'd they will refund my purchase price. What's going on at PCGS? >>

Sounds like standard operating procedure over there. And people keep complaining about ANACS?!

FatMan · April 18, 2006 9:51AM

Those who play with fire sometimes get burned.

The crack-out game is not for the faint of heart.

Blackhawk · April 18, 2006 9:57AM

There is such a thing as undergrading. The TPGs walk a fine line between overgrading and losing their reputation, and undergrading which makes them look ridiculous. If I were to open a grading service, I'd grade all BU coins as XF...that way the collectors who are masochists could brag about how they got a XF from XYZS or whatever name of the service is.

Steve · April 18, 2006 10:04AM

It seems obvious to me that you are in this "game" to make MONEY, not collect coins. Once you decide to crackout slabs you are into gambling. PCGS offers you the opportunity to submit for regrade and risk nothing with your MS64 grade. You chose to take the risk because you obviously believe that the PCGS graders will not upgrade a coin that is deserving. Well, you may be right or you may be wrong. It's not the coin that counts. It's the MONEY. Good luck.

dizzyfoxx · April 18, 2006 10:08AM

I think if I ever were to re-submit one of my coins for a potential upgrade, it will be sent IN THE SLAB. Not because I think any one of them are questionable by any means, it just seems that the TPG's are being sooooo cautious that even some of the authentic toners may suffer the consequences. I think this is a good thing though, it will only increase the demand greatly over time for slabbed original toned beauties.

relayer · April 18, 2006 10:10AM

When you submit coins to PCGS, you are paying for their expert opinion. They look at coin and render their opinion.

Since you thought it was “very close” to a 65 that seems to imply it’s a 64 (close but no cigar) so I’m not sure why cracking it out was such a wise move.

They reviewed the newly converted raw coin and gave their professional opinion the color was off.

Perhaps they were correct this time and wrong the first time?

Just keep sending it in until you get the grade you want.

TwoSides2aCoin · April 18, 2006 10:14AM

And I thought only plumbers had a Crack Out..... I guess times are changing.

fivecents · April 18, 2006 10:14AM

Once you crack a coin, all bets are off.

dizzyfoxx · April 18, 2006 10:18AM

<< Once you crack a coin, all bets are off. >>

Seems to be the consensus.

scher · April 18, 2006 10:21AM

I think its all good..pcgs will surely check it very closely..and seems you have a dealer that wants your business and is willing to stand up...all good stuff. You weren't burned.
Bruce Scher

Fletcher · April 18, 2006 10:36AM

Please tell us ... who is your dealer???

Nic · April 18, 2006 10:46AM

Why would someone want to buy a coin that they are afraid to crack out ... excluding a quick sale or a market play? K

LincolnCentMan · April 18, 2006 10:55AM

I've had the same thing happen, but with a different series. I sent five cracked PCGS lincolns in once. Three upgraded and two downgraded. Go figure. They are where the premium is in the market, however. Bottom line is, if you play the crack out game, you've got to be prepared for the downside as well. Sometimes that means multiple submissions just to get a coin back to the origional grade. Sometimes it means eatting a coin for a pretty hefty loss. Heck, sometimes it means the coins deteriorate in the mail.

David

Artist · April 18, 2006 10:58AM

Dip it!

elwood · April 18, 2006 11:12AM

<< Why would someone want to buy a coin that they are afraid to crack out ... >>

That's the only way I'll buy coins and it's worked for me.

Myqqy · April 18, 2006 11:23AM

Just keep sending it in until you get the grade you want.

Resubmission money is the name of the game. Have fun.....

TheRaven · April 18, 2006 11:41AM

If you figured it was a 64 which was close to a 65, why did you sent it in? You had the grade you expected so?

ColonialCoinUnion · April 18, 2006 12:09PM

Some people in your position might resubmit that coins another 2, 5 or 10 times, however many tries are necessary to get a 65 grade once.

09sVDB · May 19, 2006 11:10AM

Update: This coin was mistakenly resubmitted to NGC(it was supposed to go to PCGS again) they graded it MS63 today!

maddogale · May 19, 2006 11:20AM

I would think for anyone thinking of a resubmit with a toned coin, they should get quality photographs of the coin IN the holder, then do the crackout, submit, and if BB'd.....send (or post) a nasty letter with said coin pic in the slab, disputing the TPG's idiotic "revenue" game of "deny the toners and get more submission monies!!!!" Never hurts to embarass a "shark"........

MrEureka · May 19, 2006 12:42PM

PCGS burned me big time today

You happily picked off your dealer - who's obviously a good guy - when you bought this undergraded coin. Now, the coin's in a bodybag. Call it kharma.

WTCG · May 19, 2006 3:38PM

You did not get burned by PCGS. Grading is subjective and if that coin is submitted again a different grade may result.

The company that sent in a 1792 Half Disme for show grading at a past Santa Clara show that they paid six figures for that came back as "questionable authenticity" got burned.

Strat · May 19, 2006 5:45PM

Sounds like you're good at getting PCGS coins into NGC holders...if you believe in your coin, don't give up on it.

ms70 · May 19, 2006 6:46PM

<< The company that sent in a 1792 Half Disme for show grading at a past Santa Clara show that they paid six figures for that came back as "questionable authenticity" got burned. >>

Yikes! I didn't hear that story.

BTW- I'll bet the coin gets back in a PCGS holder. Maybe not at an upgrade but at least back in a slab.

Steve27 · May 19, 2006 8:04PM

Got pics?

mercurydimeguy · May 19, 2006 9:57PM

Some folks are missing the point -- it's the same coin!

This is a message to all the Kool-Aid drinkers that a coin in a slab with a given grade is just that -- a coin in a slab with a given grade. It doesn't mean the coin is actually that grade, nor does it mean it's not fake, nor does it mean that it's not AT.

Buy all slabbed coins just like they were raw. If you do, then you'll have no problem owning them if they -- for whatever reason -- become raw.

My 10 cents

jdimmick · May 19, 2006 10:35PM

Exactly!

Without even seeing the coin, based on your comments it sounds as if you had a somewhat clean mark free surfaced coin, but a coin in which the color was questionable or something lacking/disruted in the luster dept. PCGS has tightened back to where they were a few years ago and they bagged it, now NGC instead of bagging, chose to market it back to Ms-63 probably for they same reasons.

as others have said, your dealer sounds like a great stand up guy!!

jim

Shamika · May 19, 2006 10:38PM

<< Update: This coin was mistakenly resubmitted to NGC(it was supposed to go to PCGS again) they graded it MS63 today! >>

Hmmm... Sure sounds like the coin WAS NOT boarderline 65 since we all know NGC can't grade worth a damn (read sarcasm).

Seriously, the problem is more likely different graders at PCGS. The first group figured the coin was "market acceptable" while the second group did not.

PerryHall · May 19, 2006 10:53PM

<< Buy all slabbed coins just like they were raw. If you do, then you'll have no problem owning them if they -- for whatever reason -- become raw. >>

I agree with the exception of top pop moderns.

JustaRookie · May 19, 2006 11:43PM

Got a great story about NGC I wll tell in full later. In short I sent 12 Washingtons in, 10 of which came from a Capital almbum that had sat in a safe for 40 years. I selected the best coins and all had wild toning. They BBed 6 of the 10 and the 4 they slabbeded and graded were the most toned. ATed 3, env. dmged 2, and questionable cleaning on 1. What the he&*??? I was pissed as you know what and sent them a seathing email. Got a phone call the next day from a very nice fellow at NGC trying to explain what may have happened. I took detailed pictures before removing the coins from the album and after they were removed and offered to send these to him. He stopped short of telling me to send the 6 back for review. I sent these in on the 15 day service, which took 30 days to get the graded, paying for all of the submissions and still have the 5 freebies you get when joining. I wrote in my email that I wanted to send all of the membership crap back to them because of this as this was my first submission to NGC for this very reason, bad reputation about BBing good coins. I told him I'll just keep submitting them to PCGS or ANACs and they will get graded and make revenue but it would be a cold day in he&* before I submitted another coin to NGC. He spent about 30 minutes calming me down and convincing me to give NGC another opportunity with my 5 freebies so I agreed. I selected 5 totally different coins, not even Washingtons, to send, 3 are toned. He gave me his private NGC email and wanted to know how this submission goes. Well we'll see, sent them off yesterday as I was picking up my BBs and the other 6 that got slabbed and severly undergraded. Pictures to follow later. It appears that NGC has been beat up a lot lately for slabbing som AT coins so now they are swinging to the far right on toners now.

Steve27 · May 20, 2006 11:04AM

They thought this was AT?

Tarmac · May 20, 2006 11:18AM

I am always amused when people are stunned their coins previously slabbed then cracked out are returned in a BB. Why are the coins cracked out in the first place? When you play the game you have to be ready to assume some pain.

Also why do so many except 100% same grading from humans? Grading is based on experience of grader and some luck, not science. Knowing that why take the risk?

Sunnywood · May 20, 2006 11:33AM

Why would anyone crack a coin out of a PCGS holder and resubmit it to PCGS ??? If you submit it in the holder, you have NO downside risk, and you still have upside potential. I have had many coins submitted in their holders go up a grade. Perhaps for some full-time professionals, their is an arguable benefit to cracking out. But for the vast majority of collectors, it is just downright stupid. <ducking>

Sunnywood

Steve · May 20, 2006 11:35AM

It is ALL about the M O N E Y! Always has been and for the folks who play the crackout game, it always will be. Sure, grading is subjective and done by humans who are trying to police the people who slab coins just to make money. Glad I can enjoy my PCGS slabbed Lincolns knowing I like my coins for the way they look, not necessarily for the grades they have. As someone once said: Enjoy your coins. Someone else once said: Have fun with your coins. Unfortunately, too many think only of making money with their coins. It is sad.
Steve

Bear · May 20, 2006 12:05PM

Is the idiot the TPG, or is the idiot the person

that cracks out a marginal coin and resubmits?

mercurydimeguy · May 21, 2006 3:46AM

<< Is the idiot the TPG, or is the idiot the person

that cracks out a marginal coin and resubmits? >>

There is either no such thing as truth, or truth is variable and changes over time. Had the coin come back a 66 from a TPG, the owner would be a genius. The coin comes back in a BB, the owner is an idiot.

Neither should really apply -- the person paid a professional to render an opinion on a specific date and they did. If the owner pays them to render an opinion on another date, they will gladly take his money and give them their opinion on that date, which might be different than the opinion they gave the owner previously (and the difference can be rather big, at times).

It is what it is.

BlindedByEgo · May 21, 2006 4:22AM

<< PCGS burned me big time today

You happily picked off your dealer - who's obviously a good guy - when you bought this undergraded coin. Now, the coin's in a bodybag. Call it kharma. >>

LMFAO... Shame to hear about the 63 across the street.

Many here have said that if you have any cojones, you'll crack out and resubmit for a PCGS upgrade. I have none - I'll take my chances IN the holder, thank you.

A 64 PCGS crack out gets downgraded at NGC to a 63? Man oh man, what is this world coming to?

dizzyfoxx · May 21, 2006 4:34AM

<< Never hurts to embarass a "shark"........

>>

...But be careful maddogale, if you approach and embarass a shark

The results may not be to favorable...

relayer · May 21, 2006 6:18AM

PCGS graded it 64, you thought it was 65 and NGC gave it 63

Perhaps you should change the title of this thread

09sVDB · May 26, 2006 4:03AM

ttt

09sVDB · July 25, 2006 7:56AM

TTT

What's the real grade on my 34D heavy Motto? Update

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