How tamper-proof are slabs?

MrEureka

Have you ever seen a slab that had been opened and resealed? Which is the most secure slab and which is the least secure? If there are problems with the slabs, how could they be made safer?

majorbigtime

I suspect a good technician could devise a way to switch coins in a slab. Years ago, someone duplicated PCGS slabs and inserts, but screwed-up the inserts so the deception was easily identified.

Cladiator

From what I've seen and heard the new ANACS slabs are highly vulnerable to tampering.

TypeCollector

I know from experience that NGC slabs can be cracked with little or no damage. I've been unable to crack a PCGS slab without causing considerable damage.

Julian

The SEGS slabs are the most secure, but so secure that you need a master's degree in slab opening to do it.

I have not seen any of the major services compromised, but according to reports the new ANACS product seems like it might.

I am also not one of the experts at cracking holders, as I do not do it very much, at all.

WTCG

Slabs from two of the four major grading services can be opened and resealed with undetectable results. A "collapsing" portion of the slab which would break off once the holder was opened with would be an effective way to protect against tampering.

I have found that opening a SEGS slab really isn't as hard as it appears to be.

Coinosaurus

<< <i>The SEGS slabs are the most secure, but so secure that you need a master's degree in slab opening to do it. >>



I use an electric jigsaw. Apart from all the plastic dust it is quick and easy.

I'm surprised there isn't a table set up at big shows where they have one of the slab openers like the services use. I've never seen one but from what I understand it works instantly and is quite fool proof. They could charge you a buck a slab. For best results, they should setup the table right next to the services You can't get much more blatant than that - pickup your walkthough, take it to the crackout table, and then try again!

Heck, for that matter, PCGS should have a service, where, if you don't get the grade you want, they will "recirculate" your submission another time (or multiple times) for a fee. Why should I have to go through all the hassle of packing and unpacking orders and going to the post office. It's inefficient for both PCGS and me. If it doesn't make my grade, they could turn it around in the office a lot more quickly and try again, and extract more fees from me

WTCG

<< <i>

<< <i>The SEGS slabs are the most secure, but so secure that you need a master's degree in slab opening to do it. >>



I use an electric jigsaw. Apart from all the plastic dust it is quick and easy.

I'm surprised there isn't a table set up at big shows where they have one of the slab openers like the services use. I've never seen one but from what I understand it works instantly and is quite fool proof. They could charge you a buck a slab. For best results, they should setup the table right next to the services You can't get much more blatant than that - pickup your walkthough, take it to the crackout table, and then try again!

Heck, for that matter, PCGS should have a service, where, if you don't get the grade you want, they will "recirculate" your submission another time (or multiple times) for a fee. Why should I have to go through all the hassle of packing and unpacking orders and going to the post office. It's inefficient for both PCGS and me. If it doesn't make my grade, they could turn it around in the office a lot more quickly and try again, and extract more fees from me >>



Paying somebody to crack out your slab is a waste of money, and too much liability for the slab opener in case of damage to the coin or injury from flying debris onto the bourse floor. The equipment that PCGS and NGC use to break out slabs is too large and heavy for most people to transport. NGC uses a clamp and vise while PCGS uses a band saw. I can't imagine a dealer shipping or carrying a band saw into a bourse floor or a hotel room.

There are plenty of tools that don't require electricity not including a hammer that can easily remove a coin from its slab. PCGS holders should not take more than 3 seconds to break open cleanly and NGC holders should not take more than 5 seconds. Try opening a SEGS holder the same way you would an older model ANACS holder, and you'll notice the holder will break cleanly into two pieces within seconds.

nwcs

The slabbers don't try to create slabs that are tamper-proof; they try to design tamper-evident slabs. There is a difference.

TorinoCobra71

<< <i>From what I've seen and heard the new ANACS slabs are highly vulnerable to tampering. >>



Have heard and seen it......

TC71

PerryHall

I've heard that ANACS slabs are easy to crack but they shatter. Anyone here have any personal experience with cracking out the new ANACS slab?

Pushkin

<< <i>Anyone here have any personal experience with cracking out the new ANACS slab? >>



No need to crack them open. They snap open by themselves and are re-usable.

Edited to add: They don't crack either, those lines in the pic are cat hairs.

slumlord98

The current NGC slabs are not at all secure. This one could be re-used. How closely do you look at slabs when buying?

Conder101

<< <i>how could they be made safer >>


Clear area on the slab that let you see internal interlocking tabs. Even if the slab misses the sonic sealing it can't be opened without breaking the tabs. Even if you manage to force it open and put it back together the stress marks on the tabs should be visible. It would also make cracking the slabs open more difficult. Hannes Tulving used a holder with interlocking tabs but they were exposed and could be manipulated to open the holder. To prevent that two of the tabs were placed under labels. It would be more secure though if the tabs were internal where they could not be gotten at.

natescoins2005

Fill them with toxic nerve gas open one and

JustaRookie

With all due respect to the "experts" here in there associated coin type specialties, I am highly disappointed that anyone even cares about slab tampering. Does a true collector buy the coin or the slab? Once I get my scope and camera next week, I have a monstorous challenge for all of the experts and I am willing to bet that I can fool even the most seasoned ones on this one. It relates to my latetest and maybe my last submission to PCGS. Ok now I know the rookie will get bashed for this but go ahead as I have big shoulders. I may be a rookie here but am far from being one in regards to numismatics. I am a true collector and not an investor although I surely could hold my ground in the latter. I have perused this forum for almost 2 years now before posting and have learned more than I thought there ever would be to know about all facets of the coin business, hobby, and/or life which ever one chooses to make it for themselves. The regualr posters here have my utmost respect and admiration for their love, rightous ethics, and desire to impart their knowledge onto others. The core group of folks here are "bar none" the best! E'nuf of the bu^7 kissing, I am just sick and tired of all the garbage being spewed forth about who is better than who when it comes to whose name is on the slab. Put a piece of black electrical tape over the desingnating slabbing company as I will buy the coin for what it is and not who "plasitisized" it (my new addition to the coin collectors dictionary). I have personally submitted more than a 1000 coins in the past 3 years to all of the top 3 companies, which by the way I will never put a coin through the "buy the grade" programs that SEG or ICG offers. I am not a dealer either so I would consider my volume of submissions to qualify my statements. The end resultant is that if you catch a grader on a good day when they are, how should I put this, "being woken up with a smile on their face" then you get a MS-67+ with defining attributes or a variety attribution and if not expect an AU-55 or 58 for a no-doubter MS-63 or better. Let's face it, the grading business is just that, a business. The grading business is out of control and all of the top 3 just want to garner resubmission or management review fees thus the reasoning why coins being submitted now are fetching a 2-3 grade lower designation then they would 3-5 years ago. Most of this is attributed to the recent popularity explosion in the numismatic hobby/industry itself. There are far more investors now than there are true collectors that appreciate what each coin they collect represents. A collector takes the time to read, research, and understand what was behind the original design, any variations, and type modifications as they relate to the coins they collect not to mention the error or anomilies to the associated coin series they have imersed themselves into. Ok now let the rookie have it as after all, "Who the he&* is this guy and where did he come from?" What a pompous a#$ coming into our backyard and spewing forth his rhetoric and propaganda! I would have the same perspective if I had lived here for many years but unfortunately I have not. I just can't wait to see just how bad I can fool the experts and of course all will say I would have saw it differently if I had the coins I will post in hand. Just to keep it straight, I will post 3 comparisons of coins that were submitted to one of the top 3 grading companies for grading opinions, each set being a different denomination and series as to not reveal which particualar disparity I am speaking of. Those that know me who view this forum and occasionaly post here already know what I am speaking of and I ask them to please not reveal the post that I will make to demonstrate my point so that those who don't know me can make an objective opinion. Well I have one more thing in my rant to say, I purchased 2 mint wrapped bullet rolls of a certain denomination from an extremely close and trustworthy 40 plus year collector who has sacraficed to me a few of his treasured acquisitions. This happened mostly because he saw my passion and appreciation for US coinage, both the old and modern "crap". I unwrapped the rolls he sold me, which were determined to be authentic mint wrapped rolls as verifed by not 1, not 2, not 3, but 4 seperate experienced collectors and dealers with a consenses opinion that they were indeed mint wrapped and not tampered with. I spent 4 painstaking days under a very sterile environment with my non-powdered and non-treated latex gloves, as much I could make at my home sterile, meticulously upwrapping and seperating both rolls to select the best 2 from each year then narrowing it down to 1 of each year for submission. I had assistance in selecting the coin from each year to submit from the original fellow collectors who viewed the rolls before the unwrap. Needless to say I was absolutley shocked when both coins were BBed with the tagged reasoning that they were, and I quote, "Possibly Cleaned, MS" which is the similar to a NT SLQ I sent that was no doubt a MS-64 FH at a minimum. The SLQ got BBed for get this, "Questionable Toning" MS FH. What the he$% is that? It is either ATed or NTed if they are grading it. What is this middle of ground crap? If you BB the coin, you had better be convinced and not give a submitter a "grey "answer". It either is or it isn't in the world we live in today. I can say for sure this particular SLQ was not ATed. You may ask, "How does the rookie know this for sure?" Well one can really never know but in this particular instance the coin I submitted was pulled from a series album which had sat in a safe with a Washington set I just purchased. I'll also show you the rest of the Washington set as it sits in album still today minus 9 which have been sent to NGC. Ok spill your banter PCGS faithful on your NGC opinions but I would rather have a one grade over grade than a 4-6 grade under graded coin. Wait, better yet, I'll crack 'em and Ebay 'em to some sucker if they don't grade MS-66 or better. I just sent 11 Wash. Qs for grading to NGC. Anyone care to guess how many Ms-67s I will get? Most of them deserve the infamous * attribute but then again we are talking about NGC so who really gives *)(&. The toning, and I mean NT, is Maybe I have not attended enough shows or kissed the VIPs enough to get the grades that the coins I submit warrant but if that is what it takes them my collection will be "RAW". I refuse to let these companies drive my opinions, appreciations, and admiration for the coins I collect simply becasue they are not in a big 3 plastic container. Buy'em, crack 'em, and well I better not finish that. Ok now let the rookie have it!

Baley

Ok now let the rookie have it!

You might want to try hitting "return" (or 'enter') once in a while.

Conder101

<< <i>I purchased 2 mint wrapped bullet rolls of a certain denomination from an extremely close and trustworthy 40 plus year collector who has sacraficed to me a few of his treasured acquisitions. This happened mostly because he saw my passion and appreciation for US coinage, both the old and modern "crap". I unwrapped the rolls he sold me, which were determined to be authentic mint wrapped rolls as verifed by not 1, not 2, not 3, but 4 seperate experienced collectors and dealers with a consenses opinion that they were indeed mint wrapped and not tampered with. >>


Let's start with the fact that unless these were the modern rolls sold directly to the collector by the mint in the past five years, they were NOT mint wrapped rolls because the mint never wrapped rolls of coins before 2000. And the only ones they did do and didn't sell directly to collectors were the 2000 Sac dollar rolls. Since you had four "experienced" collectors examine these before you opened them I strongly suspect these were not direct sale rolls.

roadrunner

Certainly being able to grade is rule #1. Most of us look at the coin first and then compare it against the grade on the slab. Money can be made on the insert regardless of the quality of the coin. Many times the insert is worth more money than the slab if the coin is in demand. Sometimes money can be made on the coin since it exceeds the quality defined by the insert. There are a number of ways to succeed with the system....and dozens more on how to lose your shirt.

Regardless of one's dislike for the grading services they are here to stay. Try getting what you paid for your coins after they are all cracked out (95% of the collecting faithfull would be buried for a long time if they tried this route). About the only way to get equivalent money is to go the auction route. And this is not foolproof either as only solid coins for the grade typically bring all the money. Try cracking out a decent or average PCGS MS65 coin (Barber quarter or Morgan dollar) and see what you get offered for it by knowledegeable dealers. The vast majority will not pay bid and will err more towards MS64 or MS64PQ money to protect themselves. Yet you as the buyer paid MS65 money.

When someone scores 75% or better on the PCGS grading World Series, or gets offered a grader position at NGC/PCGS, then I would completely trust their ability to grade. Everything else is opinion.
We all have stories, and that's all they are. Just because someone has been in the hobby for 20-50 years doesn't mean they can grade. I know dealers from the 1970's that couldn't grade then, and still can't grade correctly today. But they are still in business.
One such very successfull dealer KNOWS he cannot grade as well as he should. But he compensates for this and does extremely well nontheless.

Buy the best coins you can in holders. If someone wants to slip in a different coin into a cracked slab, and imo that new coin is as nice or nicer than the insert says, I'd probably want to buy it.

roadrunner

Barry

Rookie - Don't forget that the slab obscures part of the coin, such as the edge. For example when looking at the key CC Seated Dimes, one of the diagnostics is the wide reeding. Can't see that in a slab.

Also, in the future, please break your posts into reasonably sized paragraphs. It's a lot easier to read.

MrEureka

I am highly disappointed that anyone even cares about slab tampering.

Anyone that buys, sells or owns slabs should care. Tampering threatens the health of the entire market, the viability of the TPGs (on whose guaranties many of us rely), and exposes some of us to fraud.

roadrunner

Andy, your concerns are inconsequential since all seasoned collectors and dealers should know how to grade, authenticate, and detect any alterations to all types of coins, right? In other words
20-50 years in the hobby makes us infallibe.

That reminds me, I haven't bought a mistake in the past 15 years (lol)

roadrunner

MrEureka

Andy, your concerns are inconsequential since all seasoned collectors and dealers should know how to grade, authenticate, and detect any alterations to all types of coins, right?

Actually, I agree with the sentiment. However, we are not all seasoned collectors and dealers.

JrGMan2004

<< <i>I know from experience that NGC slabs can be cracked with little or no damage. I've been unable to crack a PCGS slab without causing considerable damage. >>

With the change to their shells, NGC has made this much tougher to do...

Conder101

<< <i>Andy, your concerns are inconsequential since all seasoned collectors and dealers should know how to grade, authenticate, and detect any alterations to all types of coins, right? In other words 20-50 years in the hobby makes us infallibe. >>


It is what we should strive towards. You should endeavor to learn as much about your coins as you can so you can do your own grading and authentication, no to just depend on the slab labels. Because everyone makes errors. Case in point is a slab I picked up at the international show in Chicago. An 1871 Straits Serrlements 5C in AU cleaned in an ANACS holder (Type of 4/2000 - 8/05) The cleaning was obvious dipped and not properly rinsed. definitly salvagable with a redip. In AU this is a $1,500 coin. The problem is that the coin is a fake. It has an altered date. Style of the final 1 is wrong and the 7 is a little small, shallow, and you can see the traces of the removed digit underneath of it. It isn't even a well done alteration. But here it is certified by one of the big three.

You have to learn for yourself. (I hate to say this part.) you might be able to lean on the services, but don't blindly trust them. (There thats better.)

pursuitofliberty

I believe strongly that the current style NGC slab can, and is tampered with.

Several years back, I saw several suspect pieces that I previewed from the same seller. The coins were all dogs for the grade (actually were cleaned and so-so AU-50's in 55 and 58 holders). Upon inspection of a few slabs as I sat befuddled by the incompetence of NGC's grading, I noticed each slab did not have the telltale grove round the edge.

My assumption later (after nearly getting into a fight over tactfully and descretely pointing the probablility out) was that the slab had been carefully cut in half along the seam, and resealed with some type of adhesive or heat process after a new coin was inserted. Of course I couldn't be sure, but something told me about the way the seller handled the inquiry that I was on to something, and that he knew it.

A year or so later I spent the time to use a dremel to remove a coin from an NGC holder. Much like the picture shown by slumlord? (page 1), it would have been easy to put back together with a different coin in it's place, and I suspect would have been almost undetectable, especially to the inexperienced.