regarding your earlier post, you're forgetting about commons. There's very little risk in altering a vintage common card and there's a good pay out even for some 60's stuff. i've also spoken to a few dealers who believe commons receive less scrutiny.
also, card doctors probably rarely buy nm/mt vintage star cards. they can basically buy mid-grade stuff, secure in the knowledge that after they soak it, stretch it, and trim it they can always recoup their investment by getting it slabbed in an off-brand holder or even selling it raw IF they can't get it slabbed with the big 3. so there's really not that much financial risk - there's just more risk that a buyer would complain. if you want to know who the doctors are on ebay, follow the scd/csa/gem elite brick road.
overall, i'd bet more vintage cards are altered, especially if you include the other types of alterations besides trimming (which, actually, can probably only substantially improve a relatively low percentage of cards given the grading companies' size standards). there have been some good discussions of this subject on the network 54 boards, and those discussions have been a lot more balanced and realistic than anything i've read here.
btw, I'm not a detective - I just did a search on smartcollector.com. You can find card sales from the last 120 days on that site. You can also discover a submitter's buying id if, let's say, they have a graded card up for sale that they clearly didn't submit. Then it's just a matter of searching for the card and finding one with a matching certification #.
<< <i>btw, I'm not a detective - I just did a search on smartcollector.com. You can find card sales from the last 120 days on that site. You can also discover a submitter's buying id if, let's say, they have a graded card up for sale that they clearly didn't submit. Then it's just a matter of searching for the card and finding one with a matching certification #. >>
LOL! I knew somehow that you'd refute my claim that your a detective. What I really meant to say is that you really have your ear to the rail when it comes to monioring the doings of Ebay's largest dealers, and that the information you provide these boards is IMExperience invariably accurate.
" regarding your earlier post, you're forgetting about commons. There's very little risk in altering a vintage common card and there's a good pay out even for some 60's stuff. i've also spoken to a few dealers who believe commons receive less scrutiny."
I completely agree that right now, in 2006, there's very little risk involved with altering many post 1960 commons since so few are worth a damn in PSA 8 or less holders. I hadn't thought of that, but you're right; and I'll bet that more and more altered commons start getting slabbed since it's now just a total freeroll. Five years ago if the card didn't pass you were out the 25-40$ you would have gotten for it as a PSA 8. Today you're not out anything, since the card was hardly worth getting slabbed in the first place if it didn't come back a 9 or better.
<< <i>Boopotts, I do not submit to BGS - but I have a few friends that swear by them. The reason why? They feel that the modern cards they submit to BGS bring them more money when sold, and as of late, the perception among them (and my feeling is it's reality) is that the once elusive 9.5's and 10's are now easier to obtain. You don't have to personally submit to them to see this trend - the evidence is all around you (and even on Beckett's own board). Bury your head in the sand if you wish, but don't be surprised when the Beckett grading backlash continues to swell. All the notorious card doctors (of modern issues) have had their work in BGS slabs.
Also, it's obvious that the more hype that surrounds sales (even phantom ones) of BGS 10 slabs, the more they can use that hype to try and hold onto their portion of the modern grading market. They failed miserably at vintage grading, and even diluted their brand with BCCG. None of this is new news, either. If you like BGS and their grading, good for you. I would hate to own any high dollar items in their holders, because I do not have complete trust in their practices. >>
One other thing. If you have time search the past auctions of some of Ebay's more high end dealers, and take a look at the scans they provide. And notice how many of the cards they have for sale in PSA 9 holders are almost dead centered, and compare this with the number of PSA 9's in general (either from others' auctions, or your own collection, or whatever) that have 53/47 centering or better. If you notice that a seller has a disproportionate number of well centered 9's take a minute and ask yourself just why that guy would have more beautifully centered PSA 9's then other guys who aren't professional dealers.
I have sent BGS over a thousand cards. I will not send them anymore, and i stand by my BGS grades alot of trimmed cards. that is what the main BGS dealers have told me and i have witnessed by following cert numbers on sp authentic cards etc.
I agree on BGS getting softer. I used to send cards to them alot when they first started. Strict but fair. I sent in a card last month that would of gotten a 7 or 7.5 and was actually disappointed when it came back a 8.5.
<< <i>"BGS has been recognized by consumers for the last six years in a row as the industry’s top grading company."
Huh? From a Beckett commissioned poll? They are so far off the radar screen on vintage material that they're barely noticeable.
Stay classy,
Ron >>
Pay that no mind playa. Beckett always riding their own Pintos. Don't believe a playa, read their articles. They are high up on themselves. Maybe they need to get some "I love me" jackets.
Play on....
Nothing smoother than listening to Bob James and sipping on a glass of vintage Courvoisier! It's PIMPnificent!
<< <i>Beckett now owns the market for modern card grading.
BGS 9.5 will always sell for more than a PSA 10 for modern cards >>
This is a myth. Check the auction results for virtually any card you can think of. The hammer prices for PSA 10's and BGS 9.5's are very close, and frequently PSA 10's outperform the Beckett slabs.
This used to be true, back when Beckett just did not give out 9.5's, but it isn't true anymore. >>
im pretty sure this untrue, as a seller of prospector cards i know for a fact a bgs 9.5 will outsell a psa 10 everytime. Buyers don't like the look of psa cases for some reason and feel the cards move around or some bs. PSA are in my pc, bgs i sell because most bgs come from trimmers.
<< <i>Beckett now owns the market for modern card grading.
BGS 9.5 will always sell for more than a PSA 10 for modern cards >>
This is a myth. Check the auction results for virtually any card you can think of. The hammer prices for PSA 10's and BGS 9.5's are very close, and frequently PSA 10's outperform the Beckett slabs.
This used to be true, back when Beckett just did not give out 9.5's, but it isn't true anymore. >>
im pretty sure this untrue, as a seller of prospector cards i know for a fact a bgs 9.5 will outsell a psa 10 everytime. Buyers don't like the look of psa cases for some reason and feel the cards move around or some bs. PSA are in my pc, bgs i sell because most bgs come from trimmers. >>
Didn't read the whole thread so I'm not sure if anyone has brought this up, but I've been following both on eBay for a while. As far as I can tell, a BGS 9.5 will outsell a PSA 10 only if the PSA 10 was not a card from a popular Set Registry issue. If the card was from say a '71 Topps or '91 Desert Shield, the PSA 10 will outsell the BGS 9.5 almost every time. However, if the card was a modern "chrome" or other set that does not have a large Set Registry following, the BGS 9.5 will outsell the PSA 10. This is implying there are really two types of buyers. Those who are just buying cards of their favorite players or are prospecting rookies, and those who are driven by their Set Registries. In the later case, even PSA 10 of commons seem to be sold at very high prices.
Comments
regarding your earlier post, you're forgetting about commons. There's very little risk in altering a vintage common card and there's a good pay out even for some 60's stuff. i've also spoken to a few dealers who believe commons receive less scrutiny.
also, card doctors probably rarely buy nm/mt vintage star cards. they can basically buy mid-grade stuff, secure in the knowledge that after they soak it, stretch it, and trim it they can always recoup their investment by getting it slabbed in an off-brand holder or even selling it raw IF they can't get it slabbed with the big 3. so there's really not that much financial risk - there's just more risk that a buyer would complain. if you want to know who the doctors are on ebay, follow the scd/csa/gem elite brick road.
overall, i'd bet more vintage cards are altered, especially if you include the other types of alterations besides trimming (which, actually, can probably only substantially improve a relatively low percentage of cards given the grading companies' size standards). there have been some good discussions of this subject on the network 54 boards, and those discussions have been a lot more balanced and realistic than anything i've read here.
<< <i>btw, I'm not a detective - I just did a search on smartcollector.com. You can find card sales from the last 120 days on that site. You can also discover a submitter's buying id if, let's say, they have a graded card up for sale that they clearly didn't submit. Then it's just a matter of searching for the card and finding one with a matching certification #. >>
LOL! I knew somehow that you'd refute my claim that your a detective. What I really meant to say is that you really have your ear to the rail when it comes to monioring the doings of Ebay's largest dealers, and that the information you provide these boards is IMExperience invariably accurate.
regarding your earlier post, you're forgetting about commons. There's very little risk in altering a vintage common card and there's a good pay out even for some 60's stuff. i've also spoken to a few dealers who believe commons receive less scrutiny."
I completely agree that right now, in 2006, there's very little risk involved with altering many post 1960 commons since so few are worth a damn in PSA 8 or less holders. I hadn't thought of that, but you're right; and I'll bet that more and more altered commons start getting slabbed since it's now just a total freeroll. Five years ago if the card didn't pass you were out the 25-40$ you would have gotten for it as a PSA 8. Today you're not out anything, since the card was hardly worth getting slabbed in the first place if it didn't come back a 9 or better.
<< <i>Boopotts, I do not submit to BGS - but I have a few friends that swear by them. The reason why? They feel that the modern cards they submit to BGS bring them more money when sold, and as of late, the perception among them (and my feeling is it's reality) is that the once elusive 9.5's and 10's are now easier to obtain. You don't have to personally submit to them to see this trend - the evidence is all around you (and even on Beckett's own board). Bury your head in the sand if you wish, but don't be surprised when the Beckett grading backlash continues to swell. All the notorious card doctors (of modern issues) have had their work in BGS slabs.
Also, it's obvious that the more hype that surrounds sales (even phantom ones) of BGS 10 slabs, the more they can use that hype to try and hold onto their portion of the modern grading market. They failed miserably at vintage grading, and even diluted their brand with BCCG. None of this is new news, either. If you like BGS and their grading, good for you. I would hate to own any high dollar items in their holders, because I do not have complete trust in their practices. >>
One other thing. If you have time search the past auctions of some of Ebay's more high end dealers, and take a look at the scans they provide. And notice how many of the cards they have for sale in PSA 9 holders are almost dead centered, and compare this with the number of PSA 9's in general (either from others' auctions, or your own collection, or whatever) that have 53/47 centering or better. If you notice that a seller has a disproportionate number of well centered 9's take a minute and ask yourself just why that guy would have more beautifully centered PSA 9's then other guys who aren't professional dealers.
<< <i>"BGS has been recognized by consumers for the last six years in a row as the industry’s top grading company."
Huh? From a Beckett commissioned poll? They are so far off the radar screen on vintage material that they're barely noticeable.
Stay classy,
Ron >>
Pay that no mind playa. Beckett always riding their own Pintos. Don't believe a playa, read their articles. They are high up on themselves. Maybe they need to get some "I love me" jackets.
Play on....
<< <i>
You ask these pansies about a card, or why a company takes 10 months for a redemption card and they sweep it under the rug.
JS >>
I may have to send you an invitation to the Playaz Ball for that line. So, so true.
Pimp on....
<< <i>
<< <i>Beckett now owns the market for modern card grading.
BGS 9.5 will always sell for more than a PSA 10 for modern cards >>
This is a myth. Check the auction results for virtually any card you can think of. The hammer prices for PSA 10's and BGS 9.5's are very close, and frequently PSA 10's outperform the Beckett slabs.
This used to be true, back when Beckett just did not give out 9.5's, but it isn't true anymore. >>
im pretty sure this untrue, as a seller of prospector cards i know for a fact a bgs 9.5 will outsell a psa 10 everytime. Buyers don't like the look of psa cases for some reason and feel the cards move around or some bs. PSA are in my pc, bgs i sell because most bgs come from trimmers.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Beckett now owns the market for modern card grading.
BGS 9.5 will always sell for more than a PSA 10 for modern cards >>
This is a myth. Check the auction results for virtually any card you can think of. The hammer prices for PSA 10's and BGS 9.5's are very close, and frequently PSA 10's outperform the Beckett slabs.
This used to be true, back when Beckett just did not give out 9.5's, but it isn't true anymore. >>
im pretty sure this untrue, as a seller of prospector cards i know for a fact a bgs 9.5 will outsell a psa 10 everytime. Buyers don't like the look of psa cases for some reason and feel the cards move around or some bs. PSA are in my pc, bgs i sell because most bgs come from trimmers. >>
Didn't read the whole thread so I'm not sure if anyone has brought this up, but I've been following both on eBay for a while. As far as I can tell, a BGS 9.5 will outsell a PSA 10 only if the PSA 10 was not a card from a popular Set Registry issue. If the card was from say a '71 Topps or '91 Desert Shield, the PSA 10 will outsell the BGS 9.5 almost every time. However, if the card was a modern "chrome" or other set that does not have a large Set Registry following, the BGS 9.5 will outsell the PSA 10. This is implying there are really two types of buyers. Those who are just buying cards of their favorite players or are prospecting rookies, and those who are driven by their Set Registries. In the later case, even PSA 10 of commons seem to be sold at very high prices.