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Greysheet prices vs market value.

The main coin shop I visit uses the greysheet for pricing. They have prices marked on each coin but when you select what you want they look it up in the greysheet (right in front of you) and put it in the computer, then their 15% markup is added and that's whay you pay. I would say that 95% of their inventory is raw coins but they do have a partial wall with slabs (mostly PCGS and some NGC) of higher priced coins. It's a perfect store for anyone on a budget or filling a type set because in each denomination they carry a wide range of grades. Overall I would say their grading is fairly accurate.

On other threads it's been mentioned that the greysheet doesn't always reflect market value. Is this true for fairly common coins or just the high priced rarities? Not counting errors or varieties is there anything you would look for that you could buy at greysheet +15% and still make money selling it for market value?

Millertime

Comments

  • GS is mostly for NGC/PCGS coins. You might use PCI or other 2nd tier GS values to get the correct value for the dealer to add his 15%. Or divide by 50% the GS value.
    morgannut2
  • HeywoodHeywood Posts: 1,246 ✭✭✭
    Some dealer use greysheet as a bible for buy and selling others use it when it favors them.

    I wouldn't buy at Ask + 15% unless it was a monster for the grade ( But if it was, it would most likely be marked up accordingly)

    A general observation from the book "Coin collecting for dummies"

    ( This of coarse only is applicable to the common, highly traded items)

    You can almost always buy at ask, you cam mostly buy between bis and ask, and you can sometimes buy at bid.


    Some dealers try to get you both ways-- "We buy at 15% back of Bid", and then "we Sell at 15% over ask".

    If you question them, they say "The greysheet is a dealer to dealer wholesale price list, not retail"

    This is happenening less and less with the explosion of internet sale and sites.

    It all comes down to the availability of information, When there were limited sources, you had to accept their information from the graysheet, or your own observations on the boarse.

    A dealer may start at 15% over ask (If he can get it why not?) But may come down below ask with the proper negociation.


    A witty saying proves nothing- Voltaire (1694 - 1778)



    An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor

    does the truth become error because nobody will see it. -Mohandas K. Gandhi (1869-1948)
  • How does a collector gain access to the Greysheet?
    image Scottish Fold Gold
  • Steve27Steve27 Posts: 13,274 ✭✭✭
    " How does a collector gain access to the Greysheet? "

    LINK
    "It's far easier to fight for principles, than to live up to them." Adlai Stevenson
  • NM
    image
    image
  • TheRavenTheRaven Posts: 4,143 ✭✭✭✭
    He can ask whatever price he wants, you have to know what you are willing to pay for that coin.
    Collection under construction: VG Barber Quarters & Halves
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 34,208 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The Graysheet is just a guide for PCGS and NGC sightseen certified coins. Some of the prices there reflect the fact that many certified coins are routinely overgraded by the services, at least if you use the “old standards.” For example check out what a VF Mercury dime is supposed to look like in an old Photograde or ANA grading guide and see what you get today for VF. The Graysheet prices seem low until you see what passes for VF these days.

    The thing about raw coins is that the dealer can make the grade anything he likes within reason if he's dealing with knowledgeable customers. If he is dealing with less than knowledgeable customers, he can rip them a new one.

    Although those of us who know how to grade coins can make decent predictions as what something will grade when it is sent in, we are not perfect. For that reason, Graysheet + 15% is a pretty good mark-up for a dealer, especially if he can buy coins for less than “bid.”
    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • FairlanemanFairlaneman Posts: 10,424 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i> They have prices marked on each coin but when you select what you want they look it up in the greysheet (right in front of you) and put it in the computer, then their 15% markup is added and that's whay you pay. >>



    I suppose the price you receive is always lower ? Personally if I picked a coin out that was already priced and they did not honor the price beating feet to the door would be done. Also they would lose a customer.



    << <i>It's a perfect store for anyone on a budget or filling a type set because in each denomination they carry a wide range of grades. Overall I would say their grading is fairly accurate. >>



    Just added this to go along with the above. Perfect Store ????

    Now to the Gray Sheet. Never and I mean Never has a coin dealer I have purchased from looked up a coin and then add 15% after getting the Gray Sheet price. It looks like your shop owner is lazy and prices the coins one time. Instead of re-pricing, or taking the price off all together which would make more sense, he just does the re-pricing after a customer has picked a coin out at a price he can afford or is willing to pay for the coin. Again the shop door would not be close enough for me and if the door hit me in the a$$ that would be great.

    Ken

    Ken
  • Wolf359Wolf359 Posts: 7,657 ✭✭✭
    Never has a coin dealer I have purchased from looked up a coin and then add 15% after getting the Gray Sheet price.

    15% over sheet price on RAW coins is nuts. They probably offer zip when buying, like most dealers, so the markup is more like 75-90%.

    Unless you can cherrypick varities or really know how to grade (like a pro) I'd avoid buying there.
    You're getting burned with every purchase.
  • MillertimeMillertime Posts: 2,048 ✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i> They have prices marked on each coin but when you select what you want they look it up in the greysheet (right in front of you) and put it in the computer, then their 15% markup is added and that's whay you pay. >>



    I suppose the price you receive is always lower ? Personally if I picked a coin out that was already priced and they did not honor the price beating feet to the door would be done. Also they would lose a customer.



    << <i>It's a perfect store for anyone on a budget or filling a type set because in each denomination they carry a wide range of grades. Overall I would say their grading is fairly accurate. >>



    Just added this to go along with the above. Perfect Store ????

    Now to the Gray Sheet. Never and I mean Never has a coin dealer I have purchased from looked up a coin and then add 15% after getting the Gray Sheet price. It looks like your shop owner is lazy and prices the coins one time. Instead of re-pricing, or taking the price off all together which would make more sense, he just does the re-pricing after a customer has picked a coin out at a price he can afford or is willing to pay for the coin. Again the shop door would not be close enough for me and if the door hit me in the a$$ that would be great.

    Ken

    Ken >>




    Each coin is placed in a CoinEdge 2x2 holder with the grade and price on the label. The price is based on greysheet plus the markup at the time it's placed in inventory. There's a sign on each table that says the prices marked is a guide only and will vary depending on market conditions. When you select the coin you want they take it to the computer and enter the coin and grade then they look up the value in the current greysheet and enter that, the markup is calculated and the final price is what you pay. I've had prices end up higher and lower than the sticker price. I don't typically bargain well and I'm not spending hundreds of dollars at a time but there has been a few occasions when I'm a few bucks short and they have come down on the price.

    I guess "perfect store" was a little strong in that sentence. They have a wide selection of coins in each denomination and grades range from AG to MS. I personally like putting VF coins in my type album and I could easily fill an album there so it's my favorite coin shop. The customer service is also good so even if prices are a bit high it beats dealing with some lower priced dealers.

    Millertime

  • MillertimeMillertime Posts: 2,048 ✭✭


    << <i>Never has a coin dealer I have purchased from looked up a coin and then add 15% after getting the Gray Sheet price.

    15% over sheet price on RAW coins is nuts. They probably offer zip when buying, like most dealers, so the markup is more like 75-90%.

    Unless you can cherrypick varities or really know how to grade (like a pro) I'd avoid buying there.
    You're getting burned with every purchase. >>




    You could very well be right on the overall markup since I haven't sold anything to them. I'll have to check next time I'm there on the 15% markup, I could be wrong. The only example I have of their grading is an 1881-S (I think) Morgan graded MS-63 by them. It was used in a swap and sent to one of the Morgan gurus on the board who said it was a solid MS-64. For someone (like me) collecting lower grade coins it beats the hell out of buying the crap on eBay. The only other place to hold in hand the coins is the coin shows and I don't think the prices there are any better.

    Millertime
  • jdimmickjdimmick Posts: 9,706 ✭✭✭✭✭
    If you were fortunate enough to get nice choice draped bust type or early gold from this shop, you could hit a homerun with his pricing method, but run of the mill, you can do much better on price.

  • SteveSteve Posts: 3,312 ✭✭✭
    Notice the many different answers you get. The reason is because there is no "right" answer. Each dealer interprets CDN their own way. (ie) Who says the prices in CDN (not Certified CDN) represents PCGS or NGC slabbed coins ONLY? Look up their own definition.

    Bottom line. The value for a given coin is determined by a buyer and seller agreement, not by a price in a price publication. JMHO. Steveimage
  • BaleyBaley Posts: 22,663 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Buy up their inventory of problem-free, original surface, pre-1808 coins.
    greysheet is a joke on these.

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry



  • << <i>Buy up their inventory of problem-free, original surface, pre-1808 coins. >>



    And send them here, please! Expect to pay multiples of sheet for nice early coins, 2x, 3x or better. Early type dealers love to see a seller pull out the Greysheet. They immediately try to calculate how much available cash they have to spend.
  • Yep--forget about anything not early 19th Century-- Learn to grade for problem coins, then buy anything nice that's very early date before others get there or dealer learns Greysheet is wrong. On the rest, expect to lose 50% if you sell--unless you are a grading wizard for AU semi-key AU coins.
    morgannut2
  • I believe the Grey Sheet is for any coin, not just graded coins.

    The Blue Sheet is for Certified coins sight-unseen. That means ANY coin slabbed, usually just made the grade if you purchase sight-unseen.
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  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 34,208 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I believe the Grey Sheet is for any coin, not just graded coins. >>



    That's the theory and it's what it says on the Gray Sheet, but in practice at a bourse raw coins bring less money in sight seen tranactions than PCGS and NGC graded coins.
    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • carlcarl Posts: 2,054
    I really, really hate when dealers pull that on me. At coin shows so many pull that stuff on me and I just walk away, nothing said. It always reminds me of when I was a kid. My Dad owned a gas station. Naturally when the delivered gas, he had to pay X amount per gallon and he would sell it for X+x. Then if there was a advertised increase in gas, he would just change the price on the pump. Now he still paid that X price but now he is charging X+xx per gallon. I thought that was great back then but I don't like it when I buy a coin and the same thing is happening. I've seen so many dealers have a price on a 2x2 as X and they would pull out the Grey sheet and say OH LOOK. I priced that way back when and now it's up to X+xx. But I'll just charge you X+x. Still more than it is worth and I don't like that stupid story. My Dad did that stuff 50 years ago and I don't have to put up with it now. I am old and cranky so when a dealer tries that physcology crap on me I just walk away without a word.
    Millertime if you go to a coin store often enough that they know you, you should tell them point blank that if they do that to you if farewell.
    Carl
  • RedTigerRedTiger Posts: 5,608
    Sounds okay by me. If a person doesn't like the price, the system or the coins, they can vote with their feet. If enough people vote that way, the dealer will change.

    What is much more important than the price is the dealer's grading. Post a few example pics if you have them. If the grading is conservative and the coins are problem free, I would love to have a store like that near me. If the grading is liberal, and/or the coins are cleaned, dipped out junkers, then 50% of greysheet might not be a bargain.

    / edited for typos /
  • BaleyBaley Posts: 22,663 ✭✭✭✭✭
    RedTiger makes an excellent point,

    What is much more important than the price is the dealer's grading. Post a few example pics if you have them. If the grading is conservative and the coins are problem free, I would love to have a store like that near me. If the grading is liberal, and/or the coins are cleaned, dipped out junkers, then 50% of greysheet might not be a bargain.

    I'd rather pay Full Retail for nice coins properly graded than Wholesale for overgraded junk.

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,303 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The grey sheet pricing is for only 1 coin out of a 100 that hits the grade range smack dab in the middle. The other 99 coins would or should all bring a different price...assuming you could grade all 100
    on a continuum for that one grade point.

    On a MS65 bust half grey sheet is $6800. Yet 90% of the MS65's on the market for sale fall on the lower side of grey sheet since most are ugly or doggy. They fetch $4200-$5800. Some of the MS65's just sold at ANR realized around $20,000. Nice price range for a MS65: $4200 vs. $20,000 against a $6800 grey sheet bid. So a grey sheet is gonna tell you what your MS bust half is worth? Think again.

    Bottom line is that you need to be able to grade to within a gnat's azz to price accordingly. Most coins sold are overpriced or underpriced. Makes it an interesting game since most are overpriced.

    roadrunner
    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold

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