Paypal Screwing the seller

Trinketts · March 24, 2006 5:49AM

I won't do a long drawn out post...

But here are the facts...

I sold a coin on ebay.
Paid by buyer through Paypal.
Was confirmed and sent to confirmed address.
Sent Insured for value of Coin.
Buyer has coin and no complaints.
One month later Paypal reverses money that was sent because credit card used was no accepting the charge.
I provide proof of delivery to Paypal through USPS tracking number for insured posting to confirmed address.

Paypal says so what, you can't track insured email ONLINE so we don't have to honor sellerprotection. But you can track insured through the USPS if you give them the tracking number and they printed a signed recipt from their tracking system. Paypal still won't honor.

goose3 · March 24, 2006 5:54AM

I have a separate checking solely for paypal.

when someone pays me, I transfer the money to my bank account and withdraw it immediately when it shows up.

CarsonCityGold · March 24, 2006 5:57AM

Use "delivery confirmation" on anything you accept PayPal for payment, even if it is insured! It can be confirmed online.

Trinketts · March 24, 2006 6:22AM

I sent the seller protection agreement to my attorney and he says I can get my money... Tracking is to track something in transit... under the agreement it says seller must provide reasonable proof of delivery confirmation. Which I have from the USPS.

BigD5 · March 24, 2006 6:45AM

Your attorney can probably get you your money in this instance, but how much is that going to cost in comparison to the transaction value?

Paypal has their rules. If you don't follow them, you are open for getting bit in the arse. Send insured with Del. Confirmation or Sig. confirmation and you'll be ok. Most sellers don't use the tracking, and/or don't send to the confirmed address and that's where the trouble starts.

If a buyer complains to their credit card co., the card co. will reverse the charges, and Paypal will follow suit. At that point, it's up to the seller to provide the tracking information to prove the item landed. The tracking information paypal requires is the online verifiable type.

Good luck with your attorney.

Trinketts · March 24, 2006 6:49AM

The thing is we are not "tracking' anymore it has been delivered. And the policy states the seller must be able to produce a reasonable confirmation of delivery from a third party shipping source. Which I did provide.

relayer · March 24, 2006 6:57AM

<< One month later Paypal reverses money that was sent because credit card used was no accepting the charge. >>

The charge was posted to his credit card the instant he clicked the Pay Now button.
The only way for it to be reversed is if the buyer disputed the charge with his card issuer and they did a chargeback against PayPal.

Normally a merchant would provide the card issuer with the sale and delivery information, but since PayPal doesn't have a dog in the fight, they don't care since they can just as easily take the money from you and not be out anything on the deal.

Reason #412 why PayPal sucks

poptopsRus · March 24, 2006 6:57AM

I had a simular situation some time ago. Just get copies from the post office. Contact paypal and fax them copies of it (you'll have to do this 2 or 3 times) and them tell them to stick it where it belongs. It took me about a month to resolve an issue but it was worth it.

Russ · March 24, 2006 7:00AM

Have you contacted the buyer to explain that PayPal doesn't like his credit card and ask for another form of payment? If he's legit that may be your easiest solution.

Russ, NCNE

BigD5 · March 24, 2006 7:00AM

I'm pretty sure they specifically ask for online tracking features when shipping items paid for using their service.

Delivery confirmation and/or signature confirmation usually fit the bill.

By the way, that's one heck of a nice buyer you ran into. If it was an Ebayer, don't hesitate to let the rest of us know who this jerk is.

Barry · March 24, 2006 7:12AM

<< I have a separate checking solely for paypal.

when someone pays me, I transfer the money to my bank account and withdraw it immediately when it shows up. >>

Same here.

segoja · March 24, 2006 7:17AM

You should also be able to go to the USPS for fraud.

You can claim the insurance, they'll show their POD and try it that way.

Try the buyer first...maybe it's a legit error. If not, let him know your gogin to the postal service. Stealing via the USPS is a federal crime after all.

Good luck and keep us posted.

billboat · March 24, 2006 8:33AM

<< Have you contacted the buyer to explain that PayPal doesn't like his credit card and ask for another form of payment? If he's legit that may be your easiest solution.

Russ, NCNE >>

Best suggestion so far IMO!

Freak1c · March 24, 2006 9:11AM

Very interesting. Thanks for the heads up. I'm sorry you had to experience this. Good luck !

Freak

AZLARRY · March 24, 2006 9:25AM

When I sell via paypal I will only use delivery confirmation or signature confirmation as they can be tracked on line. They are very strict about this point.

Trinketts · March 24, 2006 9:47AM

Their policy says trackable "online"... But infact it is trackable online... Online at the post office through thier intranet.. which uses http code... If they want to mince words with me I will do the same.. Plus tracking is for locating something that is being shipped... this has already been shipped so we are no longer tracking it but confirming it has been recieved, which it has and I have seasonable proof... I can't wait till monday now..

BECOKA · March 24, 2006 9:54AM

Wish I had time to look for it but somewhere on pay-pals site it is in writing that anything over $250 must have signature confirmation (This is a USPS additional $1.80 feature). If it does not you get screwed. I have a couple of friends who have gotten burned from this and now they use sig conf. for everything. This is just another way that pay-pal is helping the post office increase earnings.

greghansen · March 24, 2006 10:03AM

I have a separate checking solely for paypal.
when someone pays me, I transfer the money to my bank account and withdraw it immediately when it shows up.

It occurs to me that I'm pressing my luck by not following this advise. I haven't been hurt by this type of transaction, but I like the idea of having a single dedicated Paypal account that never accumulates a significant balance for them to rip off. I think I will set this up immediately. Good advice.

Trinketts · March 24, 2006 10:35AM

<< I'm pretty sure they specifically ask for online tracking features when shipping items paid for using their service.

Delivery confirmation and/or signature confirmation usually fit the bill.

By the way, that's one heck of a nice buyer you ran into. If it was an Ebayer, don't hesitate to let the rest of us know who this jerk is. >>

They have been NRU'd so they won't be doing this again.

Freak1c · March 24, 2006 10:43AM

<< They have been NRU'd so they won't be doing this again. >>

Not under that name

Numismatics · March 24, 2006 11:39AM

That is why this website exist.

Trinketts · March 25, 2006 2:31AM

An Update.. Payal sent me a "courtesy" $175 Adjustment to my account... Still $790 short for what I lost.... I also found out this payment that was sent to me was sent from this persons paypal balance, not a credit card payment. So the plot thickens..

KeithinMD · March 25, 2006 3:10AM

So I am clear on the issue, you have some form of delivery confirmation, just not the $1.80 USPS signature delivery confirmation service?

According to your update, he paid with funds from his PayPal account and did not use a credit card-- that is very interesting. This means he has no chargeback rights through a credit card, so what right does PayPal have to reverse the transaction?

I am truly shocked they would reverse the transaction and give you a courtesy $175. As if that would make you forget the matter.

Trinketts · March 25, 2006 3:14AM

I insured the package so it has an insurance tracking number... All I had to do was goto the post office and get them to put it in their Intranet and they printed up proof of delivery and the signature slip as well.

I have a meeting with a personal friend who is an attorney Monday. We talked about this yesterday in length after I faxed him paypals seller protection policy and he just laughed.

goose3 · March 25, 2006 3:16AM

what paypal doesn't count on is someone standing up to them.

I sure would too. I have numerous Attorneys that I can call my friend (Of course if no one is around) that would help me on such a matter as well.

Stick it to them.

Trinketts · March 25, 2006 3:20AM

<< what paypal doesn't count on is someone standing up to them.

I sure would too. I have numerous Attorneys that I can call my friend (Of course if no one is around) that would help me on such a matter as well.

Stick it to them. >>

Yeah and you should have heard the attitude the Supervisor had on the phone with me...

"I don't care that you have proof the item was delivered... If I can't track it from my computer then we are not obligated honor the seller protection"

Those were exact words.

goose3 · March 25, 2006 3:21AM

I love pissing people like that off. Hell I love pissing people off in general.

KeithinMD · March 25, 2006 3:22AM

You have over 1,100 positive ebay transactions and they are going to side with the buyer? What a joke. We can only hope that one day PayPal has a competitor that provides more rights and protections for good, honest sellers.

Trinketts · March 25, 2006 3:24AM

<< You have over 1,100 positive ebay transactions and they are going to side with the buyer? What a joke. We can only hope that one day PayPal has a competitor that provides more rights and protections for good, honest sellers. >>

yeah that is why I got the $175 credit... lol because they saw how much money I generate in fees for them... What a slap in the face.

BigD5 · March 25, 2006 4:08AM

I feel for you, but what you are calling "online and trackable", isn't what they are referring to. The post office can do an "internal search" for blue ticket insured items but that's a different animal than what Paypal is looking for and you didn't have.

I'm not on their side with this, believe me, but I know what they look for, and you don't have it. Your attorney "friend" may be able to get you your money, but it's going to be a bit more complicated than you think. Once the credit card co. takes the money from Paypal, Paypal in turn takes the monies from you. At that point, you have to provide them with the proof they are asking for (I know you have "proof", but it's not what they are looking for) and if you had the sig. confirmation, this wouldn't be an issue, because you would have had the monies returned to you. Now, with your attorney "friend", you may be able to forward Paypal a copy of the signature from the insured item that the PO has on file (you did request that already, RIGHT?) and push to get your situation resolved. I'll be curious to know how much effort you have to put into this with your attorney "friend" to get your monies back.

Keep us posted and good luck.

Paypal is great if you use it within their guidlines. Veer off and it can be very frustrating. I wouldn't blame Paypal in this situation though.

1) Your buyer was purposely trying to defraud you

2) You didn't use the proper tracking vehicle that Paypal's terms put forth. You can argue about this, but you don't have what they are looking for.

SUPERCARCOINS · March 25, 2006 4:19AM

...i'm lost here -

is the guy claiming he never got it , and therefor Paypal is deducting the monies from

the credit card you have backing up your account ?

RotatedRainbows · March 25, 2006 4:31AM

<< I feel for you, but what you are calling "online and trackable", isn't what they are referring to. The post office can do an "internal search" for blue ticket insured items but that's a different animal than what Paypal is looking for and you didn't have.

I'm not on their side with this, believe me, but I know what they look for, and you don't have it. Your attorney "friend" may be able to get you your money, but it's going to be a bit more complicated than you think. Once the credit card co. takes the money from Paypal, Paypal in turn takes the monies from you. At that point, you have to provide them with the proof they are asking for (I know you have "proof", but it's not what they are looking for) and if you had the sig. confirmation, this wouldn't be an issue, because you would have had the monies returned to you. Now, with your attorney "friend", you may be able to forward Paypal a copy of the signature from the insured item that the PO has on file (you did request that already, RIGHT?) and push to get your situation resolved. I'll be curious to know how much effort you have to put into this with your attorney "friend" to get your monies back.

Keep us posted and good luck.

Paypal is great if you use it within their guidlines. Veer off and it can be very frustrating. I wouldn't blame Paypal in this situation though.

1) Your buyer was purposely trying to defraud you

2) You didn't use the proper tracking vehicle that Paypal's terms put forth. You can argue about this, but you don't have what they are looking for. >>

Read the second post down on this page (page 2) and it appears it was not a credit card transaction at all but a Paypal balance transfer. This whole situation is very confusing

One thing evrybody should learn from this thread is NEVER leave money in your Paypal account, either spend it right away or transfer it into your bank account as the only way Paypal can take money from you is if it is in your account. They cannot just take it from your bank account or charge your credit card if somebody makes a complaint against you.

Trinketts · March 25, 2006 4:33AM

You didnt read all the posts BigD... This was not a payment made by a CC... That is what paypal told me... The payment was made from an exsisting balance in the buyers account. I have spoken with them(the buyer) in detail about this. Paypal is not supposed to take back a payment that is made with exsisting funds. What happened is the buyers account went negative(for what reason I do not know) so Paypal went after people that buyer had paid in the past, for money that was negative on thier account...

Trinketts · March 25, 2006 4:35AM

<< 
One thing evrybody should learn from this thread is NEVER leave money in your Paypal account, either spend it right away or transfer it into your bank account as the only way Paypal can take money from you is if it is in your account. They cannot just take it from your bank account or charge your credit card if somebody makes a complaint against you. >>

Actually that's not even safe... See I didn't know my Paypal balance was negative... So when I was paying for an auction it automaticly took money from my checking account to make the paypal balance 0.. and then enough to cover the cost of the new item I was paying for.

aficionado · March 25, 2006 4:35AM

OK, so what is the lesson learned?

Could someone summarize what I would have to do to avoid this situation?

thanks,

Trinketts · March 25, 2006 4:38AM

Take Money Order. Cashiers checks, or let a personal check clear...

RotatedRainbows · March 25, 2006 5:01AM

<< 

<< 
One thing evrybody should learn from this thread is NEVER leave money in your Paypal account, either spend it right away or transfer it into your bank account as the only way Paypal can take money from you is if it is in your account. They cannot just take it from your bank account or charge your credit card if somebody makes a complaint against you. >>

Actually that's not even safe... See I didn't know my Paypal balance was negative... So when I was paying for an auction it automaticly took money from my checking account to make the paypal balance 0.. and then enough to cover the cost of the new item I was paying for. >>

They did not send you an email telling you the payment was reversed? I have never heard of a negative balance before this thread, I do not see how some one can be overdrawn on their account as I would think Paypal would not let a transaction be completed without funding in full (refering to the guy who sent you the money).

Trinketts · March 25, 2006 5:03AM

All I got was an email a month after saying there was a pending ammount being held on my account... over $900.. then 3 days later I get a full charge back to my account. The buyer did not start the process, this was done entirely by paypal.

BigD5 · March 25, 2006 5:07AM

Ok, I think I am lost. Didn't you say that the payment was made via CC and the CC was not accepting the charge?

All in all it still looks like Paypal is breaking your chops for not having the online trackable proof that they require.

This does seem to be an odd situation though. I've had almost similar situations, but have always been ok as soon as I provided the DC or Sig. C. numbers.

Again, good luck.

Trinketts · March 25, 2006 5:19AM

That is what Paypal had originally told me when I called them at first.... But I have been in touch with the Buyer.. The payment was an instant payment from their Paypal balance. When I first posted this I assumed it was from a CC because that is what paypal had told me on the phone. Since I have been talking to the buyer I have learned otherwise.

Trinketts · March 25, 2006 5:20AM

What really irks me is there is a very reliable tracking method through the post office Intranet PROVING it was delivered. And they know it but are screwing a long time customer on semantics. How many of you would practice business this way?

BECOKA · March 25, 2006 5:49AM

<< What really irks me is there is a very reliable tracking method through the post office Intranet PROVING it was delivered. And they know it but are screwing a long time customer on semantics. How many of you would practice business this way? >>

Sounds like it is time for a class action to get thier seller protection fixed.

streeter · March 25, 2006 5:53AM

Isn't MAJORBIGTIME an attorney?

topstuf · March 25, 2006 5:56AM

I think payputz used to have a 100% seller protection policy and then the post office decided not to allow cyanide in the mail anymore so now it's gone.

SUPERCARCOINS · March 25, 2006 10:06AM

......i am more lost then ever............

you are saying that because the buyers C.C went defunct one month

after your transaction - Paypal takes 900$ out of your account ??

He hasn't denied recieving the coin ? yet your trying to prove it got delivered ??

What in the world are you trying to say ?

speak slowly and give me a step by step account

Trinketts · March 25, 2006 10:23AM

<< ......i am more lost then ever............

you are saying that because the buyers C.C went defunct one month

after your transaction - Paypal takes 900$ out of your account ??

He hasn't denied recieving the coin ? yet your trying to prove it got delivered ??

What in the world are you trying to say ?

speak slowly and give me a step by step account

>>

I will speak slowly...

They paid for the coin from their paypal balance, they received the coin, somehow their paypal balance went negative(I don't know the details how that happened), then paypal takes money from my account to make up for the large negative balance on theirs. Now what I am wondering.. what if I had closed my checking account liked to my paypal account. Would Paypal have gone after sellers that I have paid in the past to make up for MY negative balance?

Dabigkahuna · March 25, 2006 10:53AM

What does the buyer have to say about this?

Larry
Dabigkahuna

lava · March 25, 2006 10:57AM

If the buyer left positive feedback, I would think that would be proof of delivery as well as receipt.

ram1946 · March 25, 2006 10:58AM

ram1946 · March 25, 2006 11:18AM

Soory about the last post. Wasn't logged in when I started to reply.

I had the same thing happen to me on a non-coin transaction a year or so ago. Buyer paid with a credit card that was fradulent. About 30 days after the deal was "completed" PayPal went into my tie-in credit card and withdrew the funds. The item wasn't sent with a delivery or signature confirmation, only insured. In spite of several emails, evidence via the USPS internet of delivery and all the documentation possible, PayPal would not reimburse me. They suggested I file a claim with the IFCC (internet fraud unit of the FBI - www..ifccfbi.gov). I did so. The interesting thing is that you are not allowed to follow up on the complaint. They claim they don't have the manpower to investigate the thousands of complaints they receive. While I don't like it, I can inderstand. What I don't understand is PayPal's stubborness in not accepting documentation from the USPS intranet. It is as though they are too lazy to review a faxed document and much rather just sit at their computer and look on things on line. There is no doubt I was stiffed. But there is no doubt I can (and have) proved my case to PayPal. Their customer friendly culture simply doesn't exist. They hide beyond legal language and have no desire to step outside of the formalities to rectify satisfy a customer. It is a convenience for the buyer but I'm willing to offer incentives to the buyer to avoid PayPal.

SUPERCARCOINS · March 25, 2006 11:29AM

I will speak slowly...

They paid for the coin from their paypal balance, they received the coin, somehow their paypal balance went negative(I don't know the details how that happened), then paypal takes money from my account to make up for the large negative balance on theirs. Now what I am wondering.. what if I had closed my checking account liked to my paypal account. Would Paypal have gone after sellers that I have paid in the past to make up for MY negative balance?

Good question .............I wonder myself !

What makes your story so alarming is that Paypal can/will take an innocent persons money it seems at will

Paypal Screwing the seller

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