Dealer Ethics Question or Bad Day at the Coin Shop UPDATE: ISSUE RESOLVED

cartwheel

I’m really steamed about this, and getting madder as the day goes on. Here’s the story: My local dealer calls me at home last night and tells me he has a bunch of coins just back from PCGS. He rattles off a few, and one in particular catches my attention: an 1890-S Morgan dollar in 64, which he says he’s surprised didn’t make 65. To save you from looking it up, the PCGS price guide shows 64 at $280 and 65 at $1,000. I have a very nice PCGS MS63 in my collection, but am always looking to upgrade to a PQ coin. So, I take an early lunch today and arrive at his shop at 10:30. He pulls out about a dozen fresh coins from his case and I whip out my MS63 1890-S. His coin is a nice 64, but nowhere near a 65, IMHO. The dealer’s price as marked on the slab: $225. I’m sitting there comparing the two coins side-by-side when his son walks in. I tell the dealer I’m interested in trading up. The son takes one look at what’s going on and starts yelling at his father that he is crazy to sell that coin for that price, and that he would gladly pay his dad at least $250, maybe more, right then and there, and that other crackout specialist dealers would pay even more! The son says that I (Cartwheel) will just take it and crack it out and send it back in to get the 65 (not so; not real sure how he managed to read my mind, especially when that’s not what I was thinking—remember, I didn’t think it was a 5). So, after a couple of minutes of this tirade, with me sitting there with my thumb up my ear, the dealer takes the coin off the counter and says he’s going to try shopping it around other dealers, where he hopes to get $300 or more. I basically just got up and said, “See ya!” and walked out. This is a dealer I’ve done a LOT of business with over the last six years (the majority of the raw Morgans that ended up in my registry sets were purchased from him). He may have just lost a good chunk of my business. What do you dealers (and collectors) think the ethical thing for him to do was? Am I overly sensitive?

Cartwheel

edited to say it's an 1890-S, not an 1891-S.

Burks

Not sure what the ethical side would be but that was a pretty shady move by him. First he offers to sell it and then pulls back at the last second. To me that would say my business isn't worth it to him.

Gator5220

IMO, it would have been ok to take it off the market AFTER you declined it. He showed it to you, so you should have had first refusal. After all, if his son hadn't walked in, you could have bought it.

Sounds like they need to learn a thing or two about loyalty.

UncleJoe

I don't see this as an ethics question.

The dealer owns the coin and can sell it if he so desires and can ask whatever price he wants. The real question is: Was his action the best for his business? I suspect that the answer to this question is: No.

Joe.

500Bay

What would scare me is that this dealer may end up handing on the business to his son. The young man needs to learn some business savy - or may ruin the business before he inherits it.

RKKay

IMO, once he showed you the coin, morality alone would bind him to sell it to you for $225, regardless of what his idiot (or accomplice) son said. I'd be PO'd, to put it very mildly. You showed great restraint in not going off on him right there.

JadeRareCoin

The father needs to take the son out back and whip him with switch!

That was a poor business move. Especially for such a small dollar amount. He should have said, "hey cartwheel, you can have it at $250. If you pass I will probably raise the price or try for a 65".

FatMan

I don't see an ethics issue here. Unfortunately you said that you were "interested in trading up", not "I'll take it". Even though you showed interest, no deal had been agreed upon.

With that said, what he did was incredibly stupid. And I don't blame you one bit for being peaved.

Barndog

Dealer is totally wrong, no question about it. If he has your phone number, you had a decent relationship. Contact him, tell him your opinion on the matter, and give him the opportunity to do the right thing now that he sees the situation from his very good customer's perspective. If he does the right thing, you both win. If he doesn't do the right thing, he will lose a very good customer.

1921obsession

That would be the last time I was ever seen in that building. A man doesn't do crap like that.

cartwheel

I don't see an ethics issue here. Unfortunately you said that you were "interested in trading up", not "I'll take it". Even though you showed interest, no deal had been agreed upon.

Ah, but Fats, in the little dance we do when we're trying to come to a price agreement, "interested" is code for "I'll take it if the price is right!"

Cartwheel

edited for fat-finger spelling

poorguy

He should have honored his $225 price tag to you. If you passed on it then he could have done whatever with it. He shouldn't have taken it off the table.

kranky

What I learned from that story is that dealer does not value you as a customer, and for a possible (not even guaranteed) $75, he's willing to lose your future business. I agree it's really not an ethics question, though.

He calls you at home, you make a special effort to come in, and then yanks the coin away because he suddenly thinks he might make a few extra bucks on it? That's crass.

It's not as though you just happened to wander in to the shop - he called you at home, obviously with the hope you would come in and consider buying some of the coins! The only thing that could make it worse is if you had already started talking price.

I would have a tough time going back to someone like that.

airplanenut

Let me congratulate you for saying "See ya." I can assure you I wouldn't have chosen those words.

The dealers an idiot for losing lots of potential business over so small a number.

pharmer

Possibly the dealer and dealer jr should be nominated for the Academy Awards in the best actor and best supporting actor categories.

thebeav

Not too long ago a customer of mine was in. I put a bag of circ dimes on the counter and said 75 cents a piece. He goes through them, fishes
out a bunch, among them a 16D in ag.....Cheapest 16D he ever got. I wouldn't even think of pulling it away.....

ziggy29

>> <i>and one in particular catches my attention: an 1890-S Morgan dollar in 64, which he says he’s surprised didn’t make 65. To save you from looking it up, the PCGS price guide shows 64 at $280 and 65 at $1,000. </i> <<

That price jump should have eliminated his surprise.

bhartman35

Cartwheel:

Two words: Screw him.

I think what the dealer did was both stupid and crass. If he thought he could get 65 money for it, he would have done it. He's the dealer, and the one with the guide in front of him. It sounds to me like they were pulling a father-son scam, to pressure you to negotiate for a higher price. He probably expected you to negotiate from $250 when his son broke into the tirade, in the hopes that you would try to crack it for a $750 payday (that would never come, since it was a 64 coin, as you said).

WTCG

Unfortunately a similar scenario happens to me once in a while. It's bad ettiquete for the dealer to not honor his quoted price. However, it's his son who should receive the blame for acting unprofessionally and consequently losing a customer in the process.

Barry

<< <i>Let me congratulate you for saying "See ya." I can assure you I wouldn't have chosen those words.

The dealers an idiot for losing lots of potential business over so small a number. >>



I agree with Jeremy (even without the apostrophe)

Scavenger

It almost sounds like they were playing good cop, bad cop (one of the oldest scams around).

JadeRareCoin

I agree with Jeremy (even without the apostrophe)

Give him a break Barry. He has not yet graduated from MIT.

Longacre

If the dealer couldn't tell a PQ from a dog, is that a dealer that you want?

JadeRareCoin

<< <i>It almost sounds like they were playing good cop, bad cop (one of the oldest scams around). >>



More like "dumb cop, stupid cop"".

MadMarty

<< <i>

<< <i>It almost sounds like they were playing good cop, bad cop (one of the oldest scams around). >>



More like "dumb cop, stupid cop"". >>



Better than you playing good chicken, bad chicken!!!

BlindedByEgo

<< <i>IMO, once he showed you the coin, morality alone would bind him to sell it to you for $225, regardless of what his idiot (or accomplice) son said. I'd be PO'd, to put it very mildly. You showed great restraint in not going off on him right there. >>



I totally agree.

Agflyer

My local dealer showed me a coin that he had listed for $75. I told him that they've been selling on Ebay for nearly 3 times that. He said that he would like to look into that, but in the mean time he would honor his initial offer to me of $75. I decided to pass and he ended up making quite a profit on it later. He's a great guy and I felt good about making him a little more money.

BigE2

I'd have done the same thing as you. Except I'd have told him to lose my phone number.

Cockney

I dont know if its unethical...But its certainly bloody stupid.......I'd like to be a fly on the wall the next time he calls to tell you he has some new coins.....

RYK

The dealer was certainly wrong to withdraw the offering price, and I agree with your decision to politely leave and presumably never go back. The son was a jerk. If this was a set-up, it was pretty lame. That said, if this is the worst thing that ever happens to you in coins, you are well ahead of most of us.

AU58WALKERS

<< <i>I'd have done the same thing as you. Except I'd have told him to lose my phone number. >>

morgannut2

I'd guess the kid is on some meds he shouldn't be taking. The dealer called you to offer the coin. The price was $225. If you say yes it's your coin. If he wants to buy your dup., he can say yes or no.

I would have thrown the coin at the kid and told him to stick it where the sun doesn't shine, and told the dealer you'd been buying there for 6 years without being shouted at, and to call you when the dealer wants to do real business like an adult again.

Barry

<< <i>I agree with Jeremy (even without the apostrophe)

Give him a break Barry. He has not yet graduated from MIT. >>


Problem is he's an engineer-in-training. They're teaching him well, making him illiterate.
Reminds me of when I was in college, there was a saying - Before I came here I couldn't spell engineer and now I are one!

TAClough

<< <i>I don't see this as an ethics question. The dealer owns the coin and can sell it if he so desires and can ask whatever price he wants. The real question is: Was his action the best for his business? I suspect that the answer to this question is: No. >>



Sure it is all about ethics. He showed you a coin after he called you the night before, he had his price on it, you told him that you wanted the coin (you didn't even try to dicker the price down), then his son walks in and starts playing good guy / bad guy. I would be stewing too. I would call the coin shop (talk with the one you were dealing with), advice him not to call anymore, that you didn't think much of the tactics used earlier today (good guy / bad guy), that you will be taking your business elsewhere, and that you will be informing your friends in the hobby of the tactics used. The owner needs to realize that "word of mouth" is the best or worst form of advertisement around. The coin shop needs to know that they lost a customer, that you don't like having "your chain pulled", that you took off early today after he initiated contacted you about the coin. This is just the sort of thing that gives all coin dealers a bad name, ethics or the lack of.

Tim

PS. Depending on how much I had been stewing about this, I might even take out a Personal Add in the local Newspaper (**Coin Collector Beware**) and expain the situation there plus name the coin shop involved.

Edited: For some spelling

Myqqy

The dealer sounds like a tool, and I would be irritated too.....

100proof1957

Hello,great customer coin buyer guy this is Pete from XYZ coins i have a

Click !


BZZZZZZ

UncleJoe

Sure it is all about ethics.

Disagree.

I don't think he did anything unethical, just bad business.

I can offer a coin to you for $10. and while you are looking at it I can say, "You know what, I changed my mind and I no longer want to sell the coin." That is not unethical. I may upset you, I may lose a customer, it may be bad business but it is not unethical IMO.

Joe.

flashbang

<< <i>Sure it is all about ethics.

Disagree.

I don't think he did anything unethical, just bad business.

I can offer a coin to you for $10. and while you are looking at it I can say, "You know what, I changed my mind and I no longer want to sell the coin." That is not unethical. I may upset you, I may lose a customer, it may be bad business but it is not unethical IMO.

Joe. >>



You forgot the part of calling the night before specifically for him to come in and look at the coin for the sole purpose of buying it, still not unethical?

Bochiman

Was the coin offered for $225?
Was the coin thereafter rejected?

If it was offered, and if it was being mulled over and not rejected (and not removed from in front of the customer) it is a moral and ethical error.

Dealer's son was a tool (he could have pulled his dad aside and told him) and stupid. If they were doing the "shill" routine using the son, they are dishonest. If it was just the son being a "richard", then the father should be a man and ignore his son for sake of a longtime client.

I think "seeya" was letting them off nicely as it was probably done too nicely.
I would have been more like "well, if that is how I am to be treated, then I have no need for it. Please go ahead and lose my phone number. I don't need to be jerked around"

500Bay

<< <i>It almost sounds like they were playing good cop, bad cop (one of the oldest scams around). >>



I thought this at first also, but the dealer did not try and raise the price. He just pulled the deal off the table.
If he was looking to do good cop/bad cop, I doubt he would have had a low price tag on the coin.

He was just plain stupid - especially for letting his son be such a jerk.

LanLord

I don't know how much you are tied to that dealer, but I would have told him, I hope you make a lot of money on shopping it around, because it cost you all future business from me.

RBinTex

"What do you dealers (and collectors) think the ethical thing for him to do was?"

Isn't it obvious?

cartwheel

TTT for the evening crowd!

TorinoCobra71

Not at all, IMHO the kid had no reason to butt into your deal with his father. The deal was between you and him. Lucky it wasnt me this happened to. Instead of losing a "Good Chuck" of my buisness, he would lose IT ALL !!!!!!

TorinoCobra71

cartwheel

It's been exactly one month since this started. I went back to the dealer's shop today and asked about the 1890-S Morgan. He said he still had it in his safe and was having trouble deciding whether or not to crack it out. I told him that if he did send it back in I'd be ready to buy it when it came back a 64 again. He said one other dealer told him it had a 50-50 chance of upgrading, but two others told him they didn't think it would. He apologized for the unprofessional manner that he and his son had acted in; said he should never had let his son get involved while a deal was taking place. He then sold it to me for $225 (less the trade in for my MS63). All is well. Thanks, everybody, for your input!

Cartwheel

P.S. It's stuck in the 64 tomb for good!

Smittys

Seems like everything worked out ok...

fc

ha, you did not get to rip a dealer and you come here to
complain?

you had 30 seconds to make up your mind before the son
came in buddy.

you snooze, you lose. should have said sold as soon as
you saw the coin fully and the price!

haha

edited:
darn it. the dealer called back and you got the coin. poo.
sounds like the dealer is a doodoo.



i am just razzing the orig poster. the same things have happened
to all of us.

CoinRaritiesOnline

I like it -- a happy ending! Sounds like the dealer screwed up, realized it later, and made it right with you. If all complaints were resolved this simply, traffic on this board would nearly dry up.

bhartman35

I think you let the dealer off easy by coming back at all, but I'm glad things worked out in the end. He should thank his lucky stars he's got such forgiving customers