So how many Modern Bashers have actually tried to make a top pop?
clackamas
Posts: 5,615 ✭
Seriously, How many of you (you know who you are) have ever tried, really tried, i.e. gone though 8-10,000 coins for that preposterously over priced $800 2006 Lincoln, Jeff, etc.?
The reason I ask is that I am on my about the 80th roll of 2006-D Lincoln's with not a 69 even in sight. 7th 3 hour night in a row. If I found one why would it be crazy for it to sell for "stupid" money? Do you, the modern basher, have ANY idea what it is like to search though 100 rolls of coins?
Let me qualify it a little more, not easy coins that are common in mint sets, but a true, modern, condition rarity.
The reason I ask is that I am on my about the 80th roll of 2006-D Lincoln's with not a 69 even in sight. 7th 3 hour night in a row. If I found one why would it be crazy for it to sell for "stupid" money? Do you, the modern basher, have ANY idea what it is like to search though 100 rolls of coins?
Let me qualify it a little more, not easy coins that are common in mint sets, but a true, modern, condition rarity.
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My favorite Eagle is on a modern.
Jerry
<< <i>Seriously, How many of you (you know who you are) have ever tried, really tried, i.e. gone though 8-10,000 coins for that preposterously over priced $800 2006 Lincoln, Jeff, etc.?
The reason I ask is that I am on my about the 80th roll of 2006-D Lincoln's with not a 69 even in sight. 7th 3 hour night in a row. If I found one why would it be crazy for it to sell for "stupid" money? Do you, the modern basher, have ANY idea what it is like to search though 100 rolls of coins?
Let me qualify it a little more, not easy coins that are common in mint sets, but a true, modern, condition rarity. >>
In some ways it used to be easier two generations ago to seek these coins from bags.
In the old days the cents came in $100 bags and the quarters in $1000 bags so there
was more heavy lifting but searching a bag was often very easy. You'd simply dump it
out, marvel at how poor quality could be and dump them back in the bag. You'd have
to poke through to make sure there wasn't a run of a variety or a few gems hidden un-
der the floatsam but the typical bag could be searched pretty well in less than 15 minutes.
At least now days there are always some near gems and a smattering of gems even if
the really high grades are as improbable as they ever were.
<< <i>I hate to say this, but those who are really and truly modern bashers aren't about to go through roll after roll trying to make a top pop. >>
Perhaps they should. After doing so, they might be less likely to make some of the ignorant statements they do.
Russ, NCNE
Sometimes the proponents of a series are their own worst enemies?
I've never tried to make one in UC but certainly, if I wanted one today there are others doing the work for me.
Getting up at 4:00am and driving a garbage truck is back breaking work- and I don't need to do it to know so, but I'd rather just take the cans out to the curb once a week and pay someone else to do the dirty work.
I think of 'making' Moderns much the same way.
Classics: can you find one ?
Modern: can you find the right one ?
What sucks is the TPGs being "bound" to the determination of the modern as the "right" one, people complain about the subjectivity of grading all the time,
but this is so intimately tied with the value of some moderns...
I would exempt "specialized category" moderns, like the accented hair, or morgan vams, etc...
Myself, as relative newbie, I find myself more and more attracted to the classics, but that's maybe because my sensitivity to particular subtleties of say franklins or kennedys isn't refined enough.
So in that case, if you dont know a coin line well, obviously you're going to discount them.
Either way, all varietys appeal to all sorts of collectors. Collect what gets your
<< <i>It took me six months to locate a suitable 1795 Flowing hair silver dollar yet week after week >>
That would be a PO01, right?
<< <i>Nope - the only thing I know about moderns are the posts on this chatroom. Like MadMarty getting boxes and boxes of sealed proof and mint sets to go through seeking new high grade coins. >>
Finding quantities of raw coins to search used to be quite easy and there was
back breaking work to move them around when you found them. This is no long-
er the case as evidenced by the thead to which you refer. These were mere hand-
fuls of several different coins. You may see 15 1969 mint sets and think that there
is a huge pile of moderns which will weight the market down forever. But I see the
same 15 sets and know there are only fifteen of each coin in it. I know almost all
the '69 quarters will be junk and most won't be desired by collectors. I know that
that there is a three in four chance of a '69-D/D dime but if there's one there will
probably be more.
I know one thing that really seems to escape most people who look at this situation:
These mint sets can be the sole source of a coin and they have been horribly abused
since the day they were made. Large percentages have already been busted up and
every coin either melted or placed into circulation. Now when people are finally get-
ting interested in the coins they no longer exist in mountains of nice original sets like
MadMartys but in one or two here and there. With only hundreds on the market at any
given time, where are the coins for a mass market to come from? There will be at least
a small mass market for these or there will probably be no mass hobby in twenty years.
<< <i> Like poster after poster claiming their coins were just as good as the top pops but got killed at PCGS. >>
I don't know how accurate these claims are but in some cases they are apparently just
a case of overblown expectations. In other cases there may be some validity to the claim
but as HomeRunHall said, this problem should be mitigated by the World series of Coin
Trading.
many of these coins are rare. This will not change.
<< <i>Or poster after poster saying 'cha-ching' after a new grade score at NGC. >>
It's only natural to get excited when you find you have a coin worth some significant a-
mount. This can apply moreso if you paid less than a dollar for the coin. I don't believe
this excitement is indicative of a lack of appreciation for the coins themselves. Most of
us who have made these "scores" retain the coins for our collections if they fit in with
them.
<< <i>
Sometimes the proponents of a series are their own worst enemies?
Indeed. And sometimes they won't know it for many years.
edited to add smiley.
BTW - he also should make anyone who reads his posts aware some coins that sell for $500 should sell for $200.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
<< <i>
<< <i>It took me six months to locate a suitable 1795 Flowing hair silver dollar yet week after week >>
That would be a PO01, right? >>
Not this one!
It's not that I think that they are plentiful or easy to make, its just that its not worth the effort to have an MS69 instead of an MS68 unless you're more impressed with the grade on the holder than the look of the coin.
<< <i>Nope - the only thing I know about moderns are the posts on this chatroom. Like MadMarty getting boxes and boxes of sealed proof and mint sets to go through seeking new high grade coins. Like poster after poster claiming their coins were just as good as the top pops but got killed at PCGS. Or poster after poster saying 'cha-ching' after a new grade score at NGC.
Sometimes the proponents of a series are their own worst enemies?
Hey TDN, out of those boxes and boxes, I pulled 9 sets to look at later. Then they will be given consideration for being submitted! Sure, I could buy every proof set I can find! The chances are slim that a top pop would be had. Ask any of the modern guys when the last time they made a DCAM AH Kennedy.
We're just not talking the same language. I don't disagree that there are condition rarities in the moderns. It's just that it's hard for me to fathom an arbitrary condition rarity when there are so many coins not even worth slabbing right under that arbitrary line.
In other words, if the line for CAM and DCAM were to shift slightly [for instance, the distance between NGC and PCGS standards in many instances], all of a sudden the coin simply wouldn't be worth the time to look for. Or if the line between the top pop grade and the undergrade were to shift slightly [again, the distance between NGC and PCGS standards in many instances], all of a sudden the coin is barely even worth slabbing.
When arbitrary third party standards determine the difference between pocket change and collectibility ... my mind rebels.
<< <i>Interesting enough I've heard a lot of people talking about searching thousands of bags for hours to find the right coin to bring the top pop money. I've yet to hear anyone say they did it because the other coins were not good enough to collect. How many have done this to keep the nicest coin, uncertified, in thier collection.
It's not that I think that they are plentiful or easy to make, its just that its not worth the effort to have an MS69 instead of an MS68 unless you're more impressed with the grade on the holder than the look of the coin. >>
Someday this might sink in if it's said often enough.
There are no MS-69 or MS-70 regular issue moderns (cents are a possible exception and post-98 coins are ultramodern)
People don't look through large numbers of MS-67's looking for a 68. They look through large numbers
of MS-30's to MS-62'S looking for anything worth keeping. Sometimes the best you can find in several
bags will be MS-63. Most people save the finest specimens and those which are close.
On the rare ocassion they find MS-68's they will still save the MS-65's.
How come people look at the modern pops and simply assume there are mountains of undergrades. Some-
times there are and sometimes there aren't. Unless the prices get high enough to warrant slabbing the
lower grades then you won't be able to tell from looking at the pops.
<< <i>Interesting enough I've heard a lot of people talking about searching thousands of bags for hours to find the right coin to bring the top pop money. I've yet to hear anyone say they did it because the other coins were not good enough to collect. . >>
OK I will be the first that you have heard but it is the majority of us that doi this for our own collections. Here are my mint sets that I hand picked. The first one is my birth year, the second my daughters and I am going through hundreds of rolls of 06's to complete a set for the one on the way and its birth year 2006.
1968
2002
<< <i>Seriously, How many of you (you know who you are) have ever tried, really tried, i.e. gone though 8-10,000 coins for that preposterously over priced $800 2006 Lincoln, Jeff, etc.?
The reason I ask is that I am on my about the 80th roll of 2006-D Lincoln's with not a 69 even in sight. 7th 3 hour night in a row. If I found one why would it be crazy for it to sell for "stupid" money? Do you, the modern basher, have ANY idea what it is like to search though 100 rolls of coins?
Let me qualify it a little more, not easy coins that are common in mint sets, but a true, modern, condition rarity. >>
You have answered your own question.
The mere fact that you can get 8 to 10 thousand coins to sort though shows that the coins are a group are very common. That fact alone is enough to kill my interest in paying very high prices for such items. Finding a 2006 dated coin in a normally acceptable collector grade like MS-65 or 66, should not be that hard. What you want is the truly exceptional item that hits what, MS-68 or in your dreams MS-69. (I'm assuming that made for circulation coins that do not come from mint sets are pretty shabby.) Frankly I don't get off on that stuff, and I would be totally turned off if I had to pay hundreds or thousands of dollars for it.
At any rate I have a limited collector interest in modern coins. It's limited to Proof sets, modern commemorative issues and representative type coin examples of the bullion coinages. I'm happy with a coin in the original packaging that I have gone over with a 10X glass and found to esthetically pleasing to me. I don’t give a rat’s tail about sending it to PCGS or NGC to find out if they think that it’s MS-68 or PR-70. In fact my interest in modern commemorative coins goes to zero as soon as the coin is separated from the original box, capsule and certification papers. Modern commemorative coins in slabs do nothing for me.
So there’s my collecting taste for modern coins in a nutshell.
And oh yes I do have at least one POP-1 coin. It’s an 1800 Bolender 20 silver dollar. Bowers said that there are around 40 examples of this variety known. The old time grade was EF-45, which made it at least tied for finest known. The modern grade is NGC AU-58. Either way the coin is a rarity for the variety and the finest known example of the variety. AND the value, while is in the 5 figures, is less than that 1963 PCGS Ultra Cameo PR-70 cent sold for a few years ago.
<< <i>
You have answered your own question.
The mere fact that you can get 8 to 10 thousand coins to sort though shows that the coins are a group are very common. That fact alone is enough to kill my interest in paying very high prices for such items. Finding a 2006 dated coin in a normally acceptable collector grade like MS-65 or 66, should not be that hard. What you want is the truly exceptional item that hits what, MS-68 or in your dreams MS-69. (I'm assuming that made for circulation coins that do not come from mint sets are pretty shabby.) Frankly I don't get off on that stuff, and I would be totally turned off if I had to pay hundreds or thousands of dollars for it.
. >>
This is a 2006 coin. Try finding 1970 quarters to look through. There are few rolls and
the mint sets have suffered horrible attrition. There is a very wide range of quality for
these from awful to gem PL and most coins tend to the former. There aren't even large
numbers of nice attractive collector grade coins. But, again, they aren'y scarce in nice
collector grades, merely cheap because so few people collect them.
I would have no interest in doing so. If that is what coin collecting were all about, I would find another hobby. No offense intended to those that search rolls...it's just not my cup of tea.
<< <i>Ask any of the modern guys when the last time they made a DCAM AH Kennedy.
We're just not talking the same language. I don't disagree that there are condition rarities in the moderns. It's just that it's hard for me to fathom an arbitrary condition rarity when there are so many coins not even worth slabbing right under that arbitrary line.
In other words, if the line for CAM and DCAM were to shift slightly [for instance, the distance between NGC and PCGS standards in many instances], all of a sudden the coin simply wouldn't be worth the time to look for. >>
This is precisely the kind of ignorance to which I referred. Independent of any shifting grading standards, cameo and deep cameo Accented Hair Kennedys will always be worth the time to look for. The same goes for cameo and deep cameo SMS coins as well as superb gem business strikes from the 1960's.
They were worth looking for before TPG's arrived on the scene, and they'd still be worth looking for if all the grading companies vanished.
I know this comes as a shock, but there are plenty of collectors who just flat love these coins, so there will always be demand for the best examples. Not everybody can afford to drop a few million on a "classic rarity".
(Now here comes the tired "but crack it out of it's holder" crap).
Russ, NCNE
http://my.affinity.is/cancer-research?referral_code=MjI4Nzgz
Not all of the surviving moderns in mint state number in the millions. Indeed, with the clads
having millions remaining is the exception rather than the rule. And as a proportion of mintage
most regular issue modern dimes and quarters have a much lower survival than the Barbers.
Even in in AU and XF many are much lower in proportion to mintage than the Barbers.
While most Barber coins were minted in a narrow (high) range of quality and tend to be scarce
in better grades this is simply not true for regular issue moderns. While smaller percentages were
saved there is a huge range in quality. Why would these coins have to be collected like Barbers?
If you want to put together an XF/ AU set of clad dimes there's no reason you can't and they'd
make a great collection just don't expect a nice set of clad dimes to be as easy as a Barber set
in the same grade and you should be prepared to spend less than $10 for the entire set.
If you want uncs then the set will cost upward of $50 now days and for nice gem and choice quality
you'll have to do some work because these don't get graded intentionally. Many of these will prove
surprisingly tough and by the time you get done you'll have paid up to $100 for the set.
If you buy the cheapest slabbed coins you'll have almost all choice gems with a few gems and
superb gems and the set might cost around $750 unless you shop around a lot.
If you want the choicest gems then you'll pay much more and many will consider you the greatest
fool.
Of course no one need collect these at all.
The thrill of the Hunt.......
While it doesn't turn on someone else the hunt usually finds unique patterns somewhat missed to other collectors...Such as a mint marks not in the same location due to die changes or proof dies used for regular coinage......
These habits or idiocycrocies should not be overlooked because they are found throughout our hobby.
Subtle die characteristics and changes etc........found in classic coinage as well.
There are more coins today being produced than many years ago .A percentage of the coins from years ago have been looked at ..graded..and cataloged.
Can one say that the majority of coins today will be somewhat around the same percentage of grade ?? Some will be better and some will be worse........????
That's still a lot of coins........When you find the Best.......Why not BOAST.....................JMO..............
CG
<< <i>I can understand the thrill of finding a coin that is 1 in 300,000,000. Its the remaining 299,999,999 that gives me pause.
CG >>
There were 392,000,000 1919 cents made. Yet almost every Lincoln collector has one in his set
and it sells for $100 in gem.
CG
<< <i>But how many 1919 mint sets were sold and how many are stil extant?
CG >>
People saved large numbers of coins in 1919 and it wasn't as improbable in those days
to find a gem. They didn't save the moderns. Except for the mint sets many of these
would be scarce and lots of mint set coins aren't as nice as a 1919 cent.
<< <i>People saved large numbers of coins in 1919 and it wasn't as improbable in those days >>
How can you remember back that far?
CG
Now take a real coin (I can see the blood pressure rising), like a nice bust half or bust quarter--- Aside from the registry guys (they are everywhere), most collectors look at a dealers stock ---OR EBAY for the Modern market makers --- and decide whether they want to spring for the extra bucks and get an AU coin vs a XF coin----A DIFFERENCE ALMOST ANY COLLECTOR CAN SEE---- vs the Modern weenies who pay huge differences for a 67 vs a 68 that MOST COLLECTORS CAN NOT SEE.
I know you Modern guys get this.... I know you do.....
Listen to TDN and Bill Jones and a couple of others above and think about it for a few seconds.....there now.....I KNOW YOU GET IT NOW
<< <i>I don't even care to look at moderns, so why would I ever waste my time looking through thousands of the same coins? Doing so would bore me to death.
It's just that attitude that makes me wanna
<< <i>I know there are some who go gaga over a Modern coin graded...lets say 68CAM (for this example), yes cladking it sank in...... Well I personally think that there are many many collectors --not the Registry guys--- just collectors, who would look a 67 and think it is just about the same coin for....1/2 price or less. >>
For most moderns, neither would even be worth the cost to slab them and the majority of moderns collectors wouldn't settle for grades like that - whether they participate in the registry or not. In other words, in moderns PR68 and PR67 is junk.
Please try again after you've studied up a bit.
Russ, NCNE
If I follow your train of thought as to modern vs classic your grading on a different scale.Your using your old grades of Au & Ef compared to the modern numerical grades.It's no wonder we don't agree....................................
<< <i>I tried to get some good books on Modern ubber goober CAM registry coins but couldn't even find one--- >>
You didn't look very hard. I have several; the earliest copyright 1984 - which, BTW, is long before the registry existed.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>JRocco
If I follow your train of thought as to modern vs classic your grading on a different scale.Your using your old grades of Au & Ef compared to the modern numerical grades.It's no wonder we don't agree....................................
Alright- I'm busted
The truth is- I do have, and love Moderns also, I just don't think they have the same legs under them, due to the huge stockpiles (of most) that there are out there. I have some awesome coins in government packages that may well be top pop candidates, but I like them where they are for the cost I am paying to not have them slabbed. But to each his own---- I just love seeing all this classic bashing going on lately...
Hey, most of my proof franklins are 67 or 68, and they're not junk!!
<< <i>
<< <i>I tried to get some good books on Modern ubber goober CAM registry coins but couldn't even find one--- >>
You didn't look very hard. I have several; the earliest copyright 1984 - which, BTW, is long before the registry existed.
Russ, NCNE >>
Oh Man....busted again--I haven't looked at all.........
All kidding aside Russ- which books are good references for these because I would like to get a couple as part of my book sets.
JRocco
Expert Collector.................................................................
<< <i>In other words, in moderns PR68 and PR67 is junk.
Hey, most of my proof franklins are 67 or 68, and they're not junk!! >>
You left out the previous sentence where I used the word "most". Fact is that the majority of moderns bashers are thinking much later production than Frankies. Then again, Frankies are junk regardless of grade.
<< <i>which books are good references for these because I would like to get a couple as part of my book sets. >>
My two favorites are Val Webb's Cameo Proofs 1950-1964, and Rick Tomaska's Cameo and Brilliant Proof Coinage of the 1950 to 1970 Era. Both books can be had cheap, too, but Val's is a little hard to find.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>gone though 8-10,000 coins >>
Probably have since 1965 and spent everyone except for one kennedy.
Man this modern versus classic or classic versus modern is getting really old.
Ken
<< <i>
My two favorites are Val Webb's Cameo Proofs 1950-1964, and Rick Tomaska's Cameo and Brilliant Proof Coinage of the 1950 to 1970 Era. Both books can be had cheap, too, but Val's is a little hard to find.
Russ, NCNE >>
Thanks Russ- I do want to get these now.