Dahlonega collectors-Almost 90% on the Dukes Creek coins upgraded at NGC.!!
Reece
Posts: 378 ✭✭✭
Were they that undergraded at PCGS or is NGC just that liberal?? I just took my Heritage Catologue and Doug Winters book on Dahlonega coins and compared the coins then and now, some upgraded 6 points!!
Any comments.
Any comments. RWK
0
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Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
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Here's a cut-and-paste of the salient post:
As I promised earlier, I have (below) listed all of the Dahlonega coins and their respective NGC grades as copied from the NGC website. I paged through Doug Winter's Dahlonega book and entered in parentheses the PCGS grades for all of the coins listed in his condition censuses. I am assuming there were no new discoveries/additions to Dukes Creek collection since the book was published mid-2003.
Some observations and questions:
1. One coin upgraded up by three grades, 6 coins upgraded by two grades, 28 coins upgraded by one grade, 23 coins crossed at same grade, and one coin downgraded by one grade.
2. The 54-D $5 upgraded from 65 to 67! It is hard to believe that any Dahlonega coin could possibly be a 67.
3. The 41-D $2.50 upgraded from 55 to 61. Maybe it's not the same coin?
4. The downgrade was the 56-D $1 from 62 to 61. Safe downgrade--shows that NGC can grade tougher.
5. The trend was for larger numbers in the new holders. Is it general gradeflation or does NGC grade "looser" than PCGS?
6. Do prominent collections get a boost when the coins are submitted together for grading? Do the graders know that these are "special" coins and (unintentionally) juice the grades?
Gold Dollars: 1849-D MS64 (PCGS 64), 1850-D MS63 (PCGS 63), 1851-D MS65 (PCGS 64), 1852-D MS62 (PCGS 62), 1853-D MS63 (PCGS 63), 1854-D MS61 (PCGS 61), 1855-D MS64 (PCGS 63), 1855-D Full Date MS64 (PCGS 62), 1856-D MS61 (PCGS 62), 1857-D MS62 (PCGS 62), 1858-D MS66 (PCGS 65), 1859-D MS64 (PCGS 63), 1860-D MS64 (PCGS 63), 1861-D MS65 (PCGS 63)
Quarter Eagles: 1839-D MS63 (PCGS 63), 1840-D MS62 (PCGS 61), 1841-D MS63 (PCGS 62), 1842-D MS61 (PCGS 55), 1843-D MS61 (PCGS 60), 1844-D MS63 (PCGS 63), 1845-D MS63 (PCGS 63), 1846-D MS63 (PCGS 63), 1846-D/D AU58 (?), 1847-D MS65 (PCGS 64), 1848-D MS62 (PCGS 62), 1849-D MS62 (PCGS 61), 1850-D MS61 (?), 1851-D MS65 (PCGS 64), 1852-D MS64 (PCGS 63), 1853-D MS62 (PCGS 61), 1854-D MS64 (PCGS 62), 1855-D MS61 (PCGS 60), 1856-D MS61 (PCGS 60), 1857-D MS62 (PCGS 62), 1859-D MS62 (PCGS 62)
Three Dollars: 1854-D MS62 (?)
Half Eagles: 1838-D MS63 (PCGS 62), 1839-D MS61 (PCGS 60), 1840-D MS62 (PCGS 61), 1841-D MS65 (PCGS 65), 1842-D SD MS63 (PCGS 62), 1842-D LD MS61 (PCGS 58), 1843-D MS64 (PCGS 64), 1844-D MS64 (PCGS 63), 1845-D MS64 (PCGS 63), 1846-D MS61 (PCGS 61), 1846-D/D MS66 (PCGS 65), 1847-D MS63 (PCGS 62), 1848-D MS62 (PCGS 62), 1848-D/D AU58 (?), 1849-D MS65 (PCGS 63), 1850-D MS61 (PCGS 61), 1851-D MS64 (PCGS 63), 1852-D MS63 (PCGS 63), 1853-D MS64 (PCGS 63), 1854-D MS67 (PCGS 65), 1855-D MS61 (PCGS 61), 1856-D MS65 (PCGS 64), 1857-D MS63 (PCGS 63), 1858-D MS65 (PCGS 64), 1859-D MS64 (PCGS 64), 1860-D MS64 (PCGS 64), 1861-D MS64 (PCGS 63)
On a somewhat unrelated topic, I was trying recently to sell an NGC graded gold coin. One dealer asked if the coin was recently graded. I told him it was graded within the last year or so. He told me that NGC has been extremely loose in the last year or two, and he would be foreced to offer me a purchase price based on at least the next grading level down (for example, if the coin is in an AU-58 holder, he would be a nice guy and give me AU-55 money for it). I know what he was saying was "screw the seller" talk, but I wonder if there is a bit of truth to it.
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
<< <i>I recently had a gold dollar upgrade from VF35 to AU55. >>
Dayum!
Great analysis of the collection above. I think NGC has really gone over the edge with some of the grades awarded. It is a shame that some of this elite collection was compromised for the almighty dollar. It is quite evident that a few of the coins were sent to the spa before they were given their new set of clothes.
With that said, there remain some awesome coins up for auction. The 55-D $1 full date is one to watch for sure. My guess is it will set the mark for a D-Mint coin in auction.
I'm also very interested at what the 61-D $1 hammers. No other 61-D $1 has been graded MS65, but true Dahlonega Collectors recognize that although it is an exceptional example it does not stand up to the Miles-Ulmer and the Eliasburg examples that are PCGS graded 64 and 63 respectively. This will be a good test as to the power of the plastic with respect to elite coins.
This one will be fun to watch for sure. Although I had the opportunity to do a quick peek at the Dukes Creek in Orlando, I am really looking forward to getting a good look at these in a week.
<< <i>I recently had a gold dollar upgrade from VF35 to AU55. It was in an old PCGS rattler holder, and PCGS sent it back upgraded 5 levels. Guess grading standards shift at all the companies! >>
Good God! That's the highest upgrade I've ever heard!
heritage will continue to use NGC/NCS to milk more money from
collectors.
also, are some people saying that some coins were sent to NCS
for CLEANING and then ended up in a normal NGC slab?
hah
for CLEANING and then ended up in a normal NGC slab?
No, people are saying that the coins went to NCS for light dipping and then placed in the normal NGC slab. People often do this instead of dipping the coins themselves, risking damage to them, and sending them to PCGS.
lets try to suck some more money.
ah well, it is a business not a musuem. what do they care about
leaving things alone.
That one seated dollar I got (and FIRED back) had no skin on obverse at all. It looked whizzed but was just "worked" to death. The reverse was original and bright as I imagine it would have to be as it would have to be dipped to make it even SOMEWHAT resemble the obverse.
NCS will "pizen" NGC eventually. As my "changing" buff nickel did after the NCS "treatment."
An upgrade is when the original grader bumps up its own grade.
Different graders have different opinions on coins, so in my book those could never be considered an upgrade.
I would like you to grade them.
<< <i> I'd like to grade them.
I would like you to grade them.
I'm a buyer!
can you share a few dates you really like, avoiding the ones
you may plan to bid on?
there are so many coins i have yet to sit down and study them (pics).
i have only viewed a few pics at heritage so far.
Careful, people have been sued for referring to graders (or their wives) in that manner
A Dahlonega wannabe like me is priced out of just about everything. Just about.
No info here, but that is an excellent question.
Wow the 1861-D gold dollar is already bid up to 80,500.00 and the 1854-D $3 is bid up to 74,750.00 with the juice, looks like two world record prices will be broken!!
I am not going higher than $100k on either. I promise.
The collection (dollars, quarter eagles and three) was recently resubmitted to NGC and received at least 6 additional upgrades since RYK's analysis. Some fabulous coins in the collection.
You have PCGS. Then you have the other grading services. And, I'm talking about ALL the other grading services.
Jerry
<< <i> Not certain but, the G$3 is probably the 'Goshen' specimen and was sold in Stack's section of Auction '84 (Montgomery). I consider it a gem slider but, have not closely examined it recently. >>
Thanks Dahlonega. That makes some sense. I see it sold as AU58 as recently as 1999 per DWs book.
Edit to include dollars
<< <i>Disturbing update regarding the Duke's Creek coins: I did not realize that since my analysis from two years ago, there were seven additional upgrades among the quarter eagles. >>
That's all? Good thing they're holding the line.
Wouldn't the majority of collectors of these coins be numismatic specialists and know what they are getting with these coins?
I asked the same question to the Dahlonega enthusiasts and experts this past weekend. I did not get a straight answer, as there is no simple response, but most felt that some coins might benefit from the bump in grade, regardless of their status as "finest known". After the auction, we all agreed that the unexpectedly strong pricing, for some lots, reflected this.
I resemble that remark.
I don't think grades on these coins even matter. These are pieces of American history. Where else can you mention the year and denomination and everyone knows which coin you are talking about? My guess is prices for such coins will continue to skyrocket. Ask a museum how much they will sell you any piece in their collection and they will look at you sideways. I think these coins are heading in the same direction.