Do you think the Set Registry saved PSA?

CDC4

Do you think the set registry and it's popularity saved PSA and kept prices of cards up?

Would PSA still be in the same position of financial health if they didn't have the registry?

The increased competition to have the best set etc...........

Griffins

yes, and absolutely.
Take away the registry and it's a 3 horse race- and not necessarily in the same order it is today.

yawie99

Saved, no. Made, yes.

Wabittwax

PSA would definately still be around without the registry but probably a much smaller company. They are a powerhouse today because of it.

Fabfrank

The Registry exponentially increased submissions to PSA. Cards that never would have been submitted (commons) were now being slabbed. The Registry was a good idea for collectors, but it was a GREAT idea for PSA's business model.

doncherry

<< <i>Do you think the set registry and it's popularity saved PSA and kept prices of cards up?

The increased competition to have the best set etc........... >>




Yes

shagrotn77

I agree with the made, not saved comment. Ya gotta feel bad for those non-competitive collectors, shallow pocket who were assembling PSA graded sets pre-registry who now can't even touch graded commons because their prices are so high.

jackstraw

I would say the player collectors saved PSA from being a 5 person operation. If it was just vintage only then it would be nothing. I would bet there are 10 player collectors to ever 1 set builder?Graded of course.

Davalillo

There are many many more set collectors than player collectors--it is probably 10-1 the other direction.

A 5-person operation??? There are nearly 100 collectors on several sets alone. Set collectors on the registry are probably into the thousands.

Establishing the Set Registry was a stroke of genius--without this, market shares among the three major companies would be much tighter.

jradke4

the set registry, player in particular, sure influenced me to send more cards in then the free subs that you get with membership. when I first joined a few years ago it was only to have my main cards slabbed. once i stumbled onto the set registry and got the favre basic and master sets added to the list. i really started submitting more cards.

i would agree its more the player sets than set collectors. while set collectors are passionate collectors, I think player collectors are a little more so. Especially now the way the card business is. Back in the 80's when i was a kid my goal was to obtain all the sets for each year that i could. If I have more money I would go back and buy an older set. Thank god basketball and football were cheap then, if only i would have had a little more money. but i was able to piece together nearly all the topps basketball sets sans a few cards that are a lot more now. the same for football as well. now i would never even think about it. all i do is work on each years topps finest football set, buy some packs to get brett or buy the cards i need on ebay.

in some respects PSA has also helped the secondary market as well. if not for the regirsty myself and others probably wouldnt pay the same amount for some of our cards. on the other hand they might not be as available then either.

ctsoxfan

Certainly, the Set Registry was a stroke of marketing genius. Why else would we grade all of these common cards? But, I don't think the Registry "saved" PSA from anything - you have to be putting out a quality product in the first place, for something like the Registry to succeed like it has.

jackstraw

Jim
Are you sniffing 100 dollar bills again? Griffey Jr., Jordan,Bonds,Marino,Ryan,Elway,Farve,Gretzky probably are the reason for 1/2 the population................not 52 Topps! Where do you think PSA got the revenue to expand? From 52 Topps submissions or the millions of Griffey Jr and Ripken cards that were submitted? I can't imagine there are too many 1982 Topps graded set builders out there?I did some quick math on Griffey Jr rookies and 2nd year graded in the Population and it was 250,000 plus! He alone is probably responsable for 500,000 cards submitted! And how many T206's have been graded?

Davalillo

Jackstraw,

Look at the set registry and compare the number of collectors for a classic vintage set with a player set....and this overstates the player sets as many collectors just put the cards from sets they collect into the player set registries(like me).

Also, I would not call the dealers who submit the hundreds and thousands of Jordan and Griifey cards player collectors--I would call them dealers looking to make a profit.

The number of collectors who collect player sets on the registry is but a small fraction of the set collectors.

tkd7

<< <i>I agree with the made, not saved comment. Ya gotta feel bad for those non-competitive collectors, shallow pocket who were assembling PSA graded sets pre-registry who now can't even touch graded commons because their prices are so high. >>



I think non-competitive collectors can still complete sets and not worry about the cost of commons. For many sets from the '50s the cost of commons in grade PSA 5 to 7 is practically at the cost of the card+grading.

sonoranmonsoon

It is not just PSA and the registy alone. Remember collectors universe includes PCGS, PSE, and PSA. All 3 have risen to #1 in their respective areas of collecting. In coins, for example the strong #2 player is NGC, and they also have registries. However, in my opinion Collectors Universe does a better job in providing a more user friendly format in their PCGS registry. By having 3 strong divisions, collectors universe is better positioned to adopt improvements found in one area, and applying them to the other divisions. Also their relitively tight grading standards have also help keep their reputation strong, at least with buyers of their slabbed items. Although many of us do cry a little when we send in our raw or crossover items, and don't get the grade we were looking for.

dakota

The irony in all of this is that I believe that ex PSA head honcho Steve Rocchi(GAI) was somehow involved with the creation and/or concept of the Registry.Maybe someone who knows for sure can correct me if I am wrong.If only he was able to hang around long enough to see how huge it has turned out. The Registry is absolutely the driving force behind Psa's success.

Davalillo

Dakota,

I think you're right.

I may give Steve a call on this and ask.

Jim

1420sports

I called GAI and asked this question. They said they should have an answer by Monday.

Davalillo

I spoke with Mike Baker and he says that Steve Rocchi deserves 90% of the credit for the idea and the implementation of the PSA Set Registry.

dakota

Davalillo,
Thanks for the info.....thats is how I understood it but wasnt 100% sure.

1420sports

In all seriousness, the lack of effort in getting a registry GAI showed when they first started up was not a smart move. I too have heard that Rocchi was the catalyst for the PSA registry, so it was surprising they dilly-dallied with theirs. The buzz in the air concerning GAI was huge, and based on my one sole dealing with Rocchi (which was superb) I was very interested in them. I know for a fact others were too.

I do not know the exact date GAI started, but the registry should have coincided with their launch. I would guess that PSA's registry has since doubled in size since GAI has been around.

Davalillo

Also at the risk of getting the GAI naysayers fired up, I understand that q1 card submissions are up 10-15% year-to-year in q1, that grading of opened material continue to grow, the autograph business is booming and that revenues are on a steady upward trend.

Have thought that PSA,SGC and GAI would all survive and prosper in the future and it appears as if that is happening.

Jim

Griffins

I"ve also heard that all 3 are doing well, and volume is increasing. This is good news for us, as I think collectors benefit most from the competition.
Global's concept of accepting any of the 3 companies certs into their registry was very promising, and I was really looking forward to seeing a "super registry". I"m still hoping it will happen- increasingly my sets have a mix of holders, and it this would make it a lot easier to keep track of everything.

ctsoxfan

<< <i>I"ve also heard that all 3 are doing well, and volume is increasing. This is good news for us, as I think collectors benefit most from the competition.
Global's concept of accepting any of the 3 companies certs into their registry was very promising, and I was really looking forward to seeing a "super registry". I"m still hoping it will happen- increasingly my sets have a mix of holders, and it this would make it a lot easier to keep track of everything. >>



All three may be doing "well", but you can't escape the reality of the lack of respect GAI graded cards are getting at recent card shows, and in recent auctions. Word is spreading regarding a lack of confidence in GAI, along with the perception that they grade cards differently depending on who is filling out the submission form. Look at what is happening with a current auction house running an auction right now, and the tone of their emails regarding GAI cards.

Davalillo

Ctsoxfan,

It has long been a knock against GAI that they give their long-time dealer friends preferential grading. I don't believe it personally and I think it stems from the fact that many national dealers gave at least some of their buisiness to GAI after they left PSA.

Your other point is very interesting. I too was struck by the tone of JP's recent e-mail. It suggests that bidding on the GAI cards to date has been sluggish--we'll see.


Jim

Carew29

With the recent bad news coming out in the press via the PSA/DNA---The comment of PSA being a powerhouse may take a big hit if they have to pay out. From what i have read, PSA has a large surplus of cash. If they were to lose and have to pay the full amount, 20% of their liquid would evaporate. If they win, they keep on rolling. It appears the individual had plenty of time to return the items in question,and didn't.
I was on a jury case similar to this last year and we ruled in favor for the defendent. So..good luck to PSA

RonBurgundy

Jim, look what you've done.


I continue to hear too that Global's business is up over last year, though I had not heard those specific numbers. And once again, if anyone on this board believes that Global is the only company that offers reported "preferential" treatment to dealers - which incidentally I have yet to see solid evidence of - then just ask your favorite national dealer next time you see them if they've ever enjoyed any of PSA's "legendary" Vegas sojourns. I'm willing to bet you'll either get a smile or stone cold silence.

All 3 companies are going to be around for some time.



Stay classy,



Ron

wolfbear

<< <i> ... just ask your favorite national dealer next time you see them if they've ever enjoyed any of PSA's "legendary" Vegas sojourns. >>


I'm curious ... anyone recall who was running PSA back in those 'good ole days' ...

Davalillo

Ron,

Funny.....some day I will accept one of those invitations to Las Vegas or Mexico.

A couple of years ago I gave a 53 Bowman Pee Wee Reese SBC 98 to Mike Baker and told him I was looking for a GAI 9--if it was not a 9 I would not cross it. He came back to me and said it was an 8.5. My point is that at the time I thought that PSA might go to half grades and if they did Mike knew there was a chance I could cross 20,000 plus cards to GAI--thats more business than most dealers could offer--but he did not give me the 9--subsequent business I have given GAI in pack grading showed no preferential grading.

GAI obviously needs to do certain things better but I think they will and like you I think they will prosper.

Jim

Fletch1750

Jim,
You are constantly defending the integrity of GAI. Do you buy their product? If not why? If you really believe the cards are legitimate and accurately graded why not bid on them in Memeory Lane? The prices on the GAI cards are so low that if the cards are legit they are steals.

1420sports

Davalillo

Fletch,

I may have people bidding for me. We'll see.

I believe SGC is a fine company as well but I don't bid on their cards.

I am a PSA collector.

You don't have to buy a company's product to believe in them.

If you live out east and go to the Ft. W show or out west and go to the national I will be happy to introduce you to who most knowledgeable dealers and collectors consider the finest grader in the hobby.

Jim

marz

Buy the plastic not the card I always say~

hi Jim~

jackstraw

<< <i>Also, I would not call the dealers who submit the hundreds and thousands of Jordan and Griifey cards player collectors--I would call them dealers looking to make a profit. >>




Thanks Jim it is all clear to me now.

fandango

you mention PSA, SGC, and GAI surviving....what about BGS????

1420sports

Beckett is a great choice for modern cards. If I were a modern collector, it would be my company of choice.

In order of many collectors opinions:

PSA
SGC (which can be number one for certain issues)
BGS
PRO and GAI tied for last - does anyone actively collect cards in those holders? It seems that most are sellers/dealers looking to sell a card that was not graded by any of the big three (PSA, SGC, and Beckett)

Anakin Skywalker was a promising young Jedi before he made the switch

wolfbear

If one thinks in terms of 10 years down the line,
PSA and Beckett will be the only credible grading companies still around.

The supply of raw, gradable vintage cards will eventually dry up
and PSA and Beckett are the only two that have established a foothold in modern cards.

Sometimes reality is a bltch, but it remains a reality nonetheless ...

RonBurgundy

In order of many collectors opinions:

PSA
SGC (which can be number one for certain issues)
BGS
PRO and GAI tied for last - does anyone actively collect cards in those holders? It seems that most are sellers/dealers looking to sell a card that was not graded by any of the big three (PSA, SGC, and Beckett)


AAC! Thanks for the laugh! Good one.



Ron

Love of the Game

Wolfbear, I have to disagree, although I understand your point.

First, It's difficult to project what moves companies will make in ten years' time. For all we know, Beckett will decide to flip their grading business and stick to publishing. Or one of the other grading companies will pull off a deal that gives them a foothold in the modern market. Or the prices for modern graded cards will continue to sink, leaving a finite market of only the high-dollar, modern cards that make sense grading.

Second, interest in vintage cards continues to grow, and more and more mid-grade vintage cards are making it into holders. A common T205 in a PSA 1 or SGC 20 holder will still bring $30 on Ebay in most cases. There are millions and millions of these cards, and that's just baseball. I think we're just beginning to tap the market for many other sports, and the market for non-sports cards is continuing to grow. People in the US are also beginning to discover cards from other countries - for example, there appears to be a tremendouns amount of British tobacco cards from the 1920s and 30s, being offered by sellers in England. They're in much better condition than a typical T206, for some reason, and they look great in holders. I bought a complete set of WWII-era tobacco cards from a British seller and had them shipped here for less than $75. Every one would be a PSA 6 or 7.

Third, collectors continuously cross their cards back and forth from holder to holder, resubmit existing cards looking for better grades, etc. I'm sure that many cards have been holdered multiple times, and will continue to be that way.

Lastly, there's no telling how these companies will act in the future, and what businesses they'll move into. Global grades packs. PSA has begun doing bats, balls, etc. SGC has their relationship with James Spence on autographed items. Will someone begin grading game-used equipment? Magazines? Schedules? Large-format cabinet cards or newspaper premiums? Yearbooks? There's a whole host of vintage material out there that is not currently being graded by anyone. I'm sure this will change as companies begin to look for new market niches.

Respectfully,

-Al

BJ

Very interesting thread!

I'd like to set the record straight on the genesis of the Registry concept.

The Registry idea was first conceived by David Hall around 1996 or 1997 first for PCGS and then for PSA. The first Registry booklet was published in 1998.

In 2000, Brent Gutekunst, who was the president of the Internet division of Collectors Universe at the time, gave me the idea of taking the program online.

Working in stealth mode with our IT department, because I feared the project might be squashed, I implemented the online program, first for PCGS. I launched it in February, 2001. It was an instant success. My boss, David Hall, loved it and told me to get the PSA Registry online as soon as possible. I launched PSA's Registry in June of the same year. I launched the PSE Registry in December, 2003. This year you'll see the launch of the Currency Registry as well as expansions of both the PSA and PCGS Registries.

David Hall deserves the credit for the Registry concept. To the best my of knowledge, Steve Rocchi had nothing to do with its concept and he certainly had no involvement whatsoever with its implementation.

mikeschmidt

BJ:

Big props out to you for all you have done for the PSA Registry

sixdart

BJ,

The current efforts of you and your staff continue to make the Registry a huge success. Please give the entire Registry staff a big ... Thank you!

1420sports

Thanks for the clarification BJ!

I guess Steve wasn't responsible for 90% after all .... who knows, maybe that is why they don't have one.

Davalillo

Ron,

This must be turning into the comic board....

Thanks BJ,

I asked Mike specifically if David Hall had anything to do with it and he said he didn't think so.

I guess I need to get Steve's take.

1420sports

I think Steve may have invented the question mark as well.

Davalillo

Said by the collector(???) who thinks SGC and Pro are equal--funny--I wonder if he would be willing to say those things to Baker and Rocchi directly--I doubt it.

CON40

BJ;

Excellent post to set the record straight!

1420sports

I don't know who that collector is, but I think that PRO and GAI are basically the same and I would tell that to either of the two. I would probably have to wait in line, as the whole grading area is filled with dealers looking for the bump.

Davalillo

Ok--I may give you that opportunity to insult Baker and Rocchi to their faces and we'll see.

I would like to hear from this enormous number of collectors who think that GAI and Pro are equal

1420sports

sounds good ... and at that same time, I would also ask that you call out that "collector" that you are referring to, and insult them in person.

RonBurgundy

Jim,


I want to be there when 1420 makes this famous last stand. Perhaps we could arrange for it at the national this year, it would be great entertainment!

1420: "It's called a Belgian dip."



Stay classy,


Ron