What do you think about this 1792 Half Disme ebay auction - NTC G4? Real or not?

Colorfulcoins

Tripped across this auction on ebay........you don't see many of these and I've never seen one in an NTC holder especially in a G4 grade. What do you think - real or not? Looks pretty "high grade" to me for a G4 which I would suspect to be much more worn. Thoughts?

ebay Link

RYK

Interesting! I do not know nearly enough about these to comment intelligently (or otherwise ). I have no strong opinion on its authenticity other than that I would be a heckuva lot more comfortable about it in an ANACS net-grade or NCS slab. High risk and high (potential) reward on this auction!

Barndog

I saw it last night and had the same concerns that it was a "high grade G-4" and possibly not real. If it were in a more reputable holder, I believe it would have a higher grade. Given that assumption, my conclusion is that it must not be real. Think "ten foot pole" on this one.

A seven day return policy does nothing for you if you have to crack the slab to determine authenticity, right? Maybe a 20-foot pole!

Trinketts

Proof that people talked like Snoop Dog in 1792....

Or would that be Dizime?

rhedden

I suspect that it is real, but slightly bent, resulting in uneven wear. Thus, PCGS and NGC will not touch it.

Cladiator

<< <i>I suspect that it is real, but slightly bent, resulting in uneven wear. Thus, PCGS and NGC will not touch it. >>

If that were the case and the coin was mine it would have gone to ANACS or NCS and not some third rate TPG with zero credibility.

BillJones

I'd say counterfeit for sure. All of the 1792 half dismes were struck from one pair of dies. There is only one variety. This thing was obviously struck from another set of dies. The relief and details are all wrong.

NTC is a fourth world grading service. They don't even get into the third world category.

Here's a real one you can use to compare.

fc

interesting post to say the least.

ss350camaro

I sent a question to the seller asking if he had it graded. His response is that he purchased it in the NTC holder.

I followed up with questions about considering sending it to PCGS, ANACS, or NGC for authentication and reholdering.

I'll post the answer(s) if i get them.

ss350camaro

<< <i>I'd say counterfeit for sure. All of the 1792 half dismes were struck from one pair of dies. There is only one variety. This thing was obviously struck from another sets of dies. The relief and details are all wrong.

NTC is a fourth world grading service. They don't even get into the third world category.

Here's a real one you can use to compare.

>>



combined for easier comparisons.

...........................................................................................GMM copy

slumlord98

The right wing to center of RI is different on the NTC coin. Star to S (DISME) is different also. If there is only one pair of dies, then this must be a GMM or some other copy. If "COPY" was effaced on the NTC item, it doesn't jump out.

tjkillian

The NTC and the genuine one are clearly from different dies. If there were only one set of dies, then one has to be a fake.

This coin would be a lot more valuable in an NCS or ANACS holder than in a NTC holder.

Tom

kranky

I'm noticing a few details that don't seem to jibe.

On the NTC coin, the top edge of the wing on the left side of the coin appears to be perfectly straight, not slighly curved as in BillJones' photo. The bottom serif of the E in STATES is much larger on BillJones' coin than on the NTC coin. I'm also concerned about the line separating the eagle's leg from the body on the NTC coin. Seems like wear would have blended the leg and body together.

slumlord98

Here's a GMM copy for comparison of diagnostics.

ss350camaro

<< <i>Here's a GMM copy for comparison of diagnostics.

>>




Was "COPY" ever on these GMM 'coins' ?

Barndog

<< <i>I suspect that it is real, but slightly bent, resulting in uneven wear. Thus, PCGS and NGC will not touch it. >>



PCGS has holdered damaged 1792 half dismes, not sure if NGC has. If this were real, it would holder at any of the top three.

BillJones

The general look of this "1792 half disme" reminds me of the Dr. Edwards copy of the 1796 half cent. It's got the right major devices, but the details are quite different.

I've never seen a copy like this in any book, but perhaps this is a product of the 19th century that was made to fill a hole cheaply. At any rate the item is a copy, and it shows the ignorance of the people who grade and authenticate coins at NTC.

MrHalfDime

Slumlord is correct, and beat me to the comment. If you look at the (viewer's) right wing, and where it points to RI of AMERICA on Bill Jones' genuine half disme, and then compare it with where the wing points on the NTC example, you will see a great difference. Bill was correct, that there was just one die pair used for the (real) 1792's, and this eBay NTC coin was definitely not struck from that same die pair. Even the unique copper example was struck from the same die pair.

The shape of the eagle's head is also all wrong on the NTC specimen.

If you compare the NTC coin with one of the GMM replicas (at present, the only 1792 half disme I own), you will see that the right wing points to a position under the right foot of the R, just as on the NTC specimen. On both of my GMM replicas, there is an engraver's die scratch above the left wing about half way across the top of the wing, and I can just make out the die scratch on the NTC specimen. Mystery solved, and Slumlord nailed it.

fc

as russ would say,

i love this place.

Barndog

So who's going to make an offer to buy the coin from the seller for what it's worth?

kranky

I'd love to hear how this turns out if the owner decides to see how beefy of a guarantee (if any) that NTC offers.

MrHalfDime

It's worth $19.95, exactly what the Gallery Mint Museum pieces sell for ........ or maybe less.

And to answer an earlier question, yes, the GMM copies all have the word COPY stamped either on obverse or reverse - buyer's choice.

Barndog

I sent the link to this thread to the seller. I suggested he seek a refund from the person who sold him the coin.

BillJones

<< <i>I'd love to hear how this turns out if the owner decides to see how beefy of a guarantee (if any) that NTC offers. >>



The guarantee at NTC is a pile of bones. The is no meat on it.

They do guarantee that the coin is in a holder, however.

MrHalfDime

I'll just play devil's advocate for a minute. It is decidedly a 'bogus' half disme. Could it also be a 'bogus' slab, fabricated to give it more credibility? Check the seams on the slab.

ss350camaro

<< <i>It's worth $19.95, exactly what the Gallery Mint Museum pieces sell for ........ or maybe less.

And to answer an earlier question, yes, the GMM copies all have the word COPY stamped either on obverse or reverse - buyer's choice. >>




got a pic, or a link to a pic, that shows the copy stamped?


Thanks

BillJones

<< <i>I'll just play devil's advocate for a minute. It is decidedly a 'bogus' half disme. Could it also be a 'bogus' slab, fabricated to give it more credibility? Check the seams on the slab. >>



One would have to be mentally disturbed to think that they could gain credibility from counterfeiting the NTC slab. That’s like using the brand name “Yugo” in the auto industry or “Firestone 500 Radial” in the tire business.

ziggy29

I wonder if that discolored, scuffed-out area above the "HA" in "HALF" is where the word COPY used to be?

[Edit to add: Apparently so.]

kranky

Photo from the GMM site:

MrHalfDime

"One would have to be mentally disturbed to think that they could gain credibility from counterfeiting the NTC slab. That’s like using the brand name “Yugo” in the auto industry or “Firestone 500 Radial” in the tire business."





Point well taken. Just thinking out loud.

"I wonder if that discolored, scuffed-out area above the "HA" in "HALF" is where the word COPY used to be?"

I would be willing to bet it is. On all of the GMM copies that I have seen, with the word COPY stamped on the reverse, that is precisely where it was struck.

ss350camaro

Looks like a "C" in the box i added. ?
edited to add: Doesn't match up to the pics shown of the COPY tho

Barndog

<< <i>One would have to be mentally disturbed to think that they could gain credibility from counterfeiting the NTC slab. That’s like using the brand name “Yugo” in the auto industry or “Firestone 500 Radial” in the tire business." >>



OK, MrHalfDime, what your family has no doubt been thinking quietly for 25 years while observing your passion for collecting 1.34 to 1.35 gram metal disks is finally out in the open!

kiyote

What's NTC's authenticity guarentee? I would say a coin like this could end them, but they're already at the bottom of the barrel.

Barndog

NTC's web site mentions nothing of a guarantee

LanLord

As interesting and informative as this thread has been (and it has been a complete schoolday for anyone that enjoys early US coins), I find the overall result of this to be highly disturbing for several reasons:

1 - Someone apparently either paid a lot of money for a fake, or expects to cheat someone out of a lot of money for a fake
2 - NTC assisted in what I could only call a crime if someone paid disme money for that fake
3 - There appears to be no limit to how low people will stoop to relieve a fool from his/her money

Given the learning experience in this thread, I greatly appreciate those posters that shared their science with us here.

DrWho

There's a thread on ebay, somewhere, where the buyer mentioned buying $20 gold lib/saint in an NTC MS62 slab, only to be counterfeit. Called NTC, they said "we do not guarantee authenticity". It appears they only 'grade' them!

need more?

slumlord98

People occasionally submit worn GMM "coins" to the services in hopes of hitting a home run. A few years ago, a new 1796 half dollar "die marriage" appeared at SEGS, and was busted. Another in G-4 or thereabouts appeared on ebay a couple years ago. This seller was adamant about the authenticity of his "coin" until he ran into the BHNC enforcer. After that, he quickly faded into the woodwork. And it will happen again. Now this would be a great make work project for the coin posse.

BECOKA

The date looks to be a totally different font.

UncleJoe

I politely indicated to the seller that his coin was not genuine.

He replied by thanking me and he has now ended the auction.

Joe.

NumisOxide

<< <i>"I wonder if that discolored, scuffed-out area above the "HA" in "HALF" is where the word COPY used to be?"

I would be willing to bet it is. On all of the GMM copies that I have seen, with the word COPY stamped on the reverse, that is precisely where it was struck. >>


I agree with your observation. It's clearly a fake.

CaptHenway

Good call, Camaro. GMM it is.
Tom D.

mgoodm3

Interesting thread.

Russ

<< <i>I politely indicated to the seller that his coin was not genuine.

He replied by thanking me and he has now ended the auction. >>



Looks like we may have a case of an honest seller who got bent over buying the coin. I hope he has some recourse.

Russ, NCNE

kiyote

I got a reply from NTC about this!

"This matter has already been resolved with Augusta Coin Exchange.

Thanks,

The Staff at NTC"

kranky

Saying "it was resolved" leaves a lot open to interpretation. Was it acknowledged the coin was a fake? Did NTC buy it back for the retail value of a genuine piece? Was the resolution limited to a refund of the grading fee? I'd love to know what was done to compensate the owner of the coin.

And if you were a third-tier TPG, wouldn't your spidey sense tingle if a classic rarity like that came in for slabbing? I think another TPG once complained bitterly that people were sending in known bad coins just to embarrass that TPG once they got slabbed.