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1918/7-D Buffalo - Updated w/ Photos. Grade?

Curious as to what you all feel as to the grading of Buffalos in VF or higher without a full horn. Just purchased a 1918/7-D with only a 3/4 horn but looks to be a solid EF in all other respects. My understanding is that these werent weakly struck but a quick search of heritage shows several coins in high grade VF and even a few in EF-40 with no tip to the horn. Kind of anti-climactic without photos but they are on my computer at the office, will post in the morning and let you grade it out. Heres a link to a PCGS EF-40 that sold at B&M.

1918/7-D PCGS EF-40

and a VF-35
1918/7-D PCGS VF-35

Are these examples considered 'Market Graded', all the grading books state a full horn is necesary for an EF, thanks in advance for the responses.
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Here are the photos of my new purchase, please note that these are from my flatbed scanner as I have yet to master the art of coin photography. Please let me know what you feel this coin grades. All opinions are very much appreciated.
(I dont have anywhere to store these photos, please feel free to post them.)

Comments

  • BochimanBochiman Posts: 25,284 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think, from what I have seen lately, there is a "change" to the way these are graded....it used to be dependent on the horn.....now, there is a realization that the rest of the coin has a say in the matter.

    So, traditionalists complain and lower the grade.
    Those that take in the whole coin grade it higher if the rest of the coin merits such.

    I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment

  • Thanks for the explanation. Im curious as to what the market acceptance is for the old time collectors and dealers to this way of thinking. Seems like a nice way to cherrypick some nice EF coins that dont quite fit the full horn standard by referencing the grading books. Will post photos of the 1918/7 in the morning. Thanks.
  • Nearly all of the rarities of the series have strike weaknesses. What Bochiman said is dead on. I've heard many people complain about the change in the standard full horn for a VF/XF buffalo nickel (a change that has occurred over many years now). But strike is only one aspect of market grading, and that's always been the case. So when a buffalo nickel has such strike weakness that the tip of the horn is readily worn off, even when the rest of the coin may be "all there," a market grade for the other qualities of the coin just makes sense.

    My XF45 example shows the tip of the horn, but it's the exception and not the rule.

    Hoot

    image
    image
    From this hour I ordain myself loos'd of limits and imaginary lines. - Whitman
  • BTW, XF 1918/7 buffalo nickels are downright rare. Most of this issue are in conditions of VF20 and lower, with the preponderance in G-VG.

    Hoot
    From this hour I ordain myself loos'd of limits and imaginary lines. - Whitman
  • Hoot, I appreciate the beautiful photos for comparison. I would have to say that is a solid coin for the grade if comparing it to the others I have seen. Im wondering if anyone has done a supposition as to how many were struck, Breen says that only one die was used but does anyone know what the average range of strikings were for this year per die. Thanks for the info.
  • Nickel 5 cent dies at the time were used to coin a typical run of 60,000 pieces. Sometimes they struck fewer, sometimes more, but rarely 100,000 for a die pair. Even dies that lasted to 60k were recycled (polished, basined) several times - about every 15 to 20,000 strikes.

    It's difficult to say how many 18/7 pieces were struck. They were not discovered until well after they had entered circulation, thus there are few survivors. I've heard total extant estimates of 1000 to 1200 coins in all grades, and perhaps around 200 in grades of XF and above. Again, most were circulated heavily. I have known of a number of restored-date pieces. Even these bring a premium, going for 500-600 dollars. I'd imagine that there are still a few more to be found among "dateless" buffalo nickels.

    Hoot
    From this hour I ordain myself loos'd of limits and imaginary lines. - Whitman
  • Neither of those coins are graded properly IMO . First coin is VF at best probably Fine. It is not weakly struck, neither obverse or reverse deserve the EF grade. This probably is why the coin realized 7 and some change. I would think a true ef would realize at least 10 g or so. Second coin looks fine market graded to vg and maybe has been cleaned at one point or another.

  • originalisbestoriginalisbest Posts: 5,911 ✭✭✭✭
    hella coin, hoot! I went over this issue with a local dealer re: his NGC VF (looks F+) three-legger the other day as well.
  • Apropos nothing; I once saw a Hobo nickel carved on an 18/7!

    Cartwheel
  • LanLordLanLord Posts: 11,672 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Apropos nothing; I once saw a Hobo nickel carved on an 18/7! Cartwheel >>

    That's gotta sting, but at least you know it was not a modern hobo!
  • Updated w/ photos. All opinions welcome.
  • gyocomgdgyocomgd Posts: 2,582 ✭✭✭
    The grading of those coins looks typical to me. I haven't submitted any of my Buffaloes, though I've looked at hundreds over the last few months and these have the grades I'd expect.
    Going strictly by every grading guideline I've seen (ANA, photograde, Lange, etc.), it's obvious grading has been "dumbed down" by one full grade. "A full horn locks the grade" is mantra I've heard repated often. News that they have recently toughened this is a little spooky; I'm gonna get my Buffs submitted quickly before this really takes hold! I have a 26-S with a super-strong horn that is weak in other areas, and now I'm concerned.
    I would add that TPGs arbitrarily going all over the map with grading standards is a very terrible, irresponsible thing that merits an explanation. If they want to be regarded as a grading "authority," then they must do better than cavalierly shrug off the hundreds (or thousands) of dollars a collector may lose by investing in their standard, only to see them change it with a wave of their hand.
    Does anyone have any recently slabbed Buffs that would demonstrate the toughening Hoot and Bochiman indicate?

    Guy
    image
  • UncleJoeUncleJoe Posts: 2,518 ✭✭✭
    I really don’t care if the grading standards for Buffalo Nickels have changed. The real problem is in the pricing.

    Look at any price guide for Buffalo Nickels and you will see consistent large increases from the grade of Fine to Very fine. This is because Very Fine meant full horn and nothing less. The problem with saying that Very Fine no longer needs a full horn is that the pricing is not being adjusted accordingly. Very Fines with full horns are rare and justified the large increases from Fine to Very Fine. “Very Fines” without a full horn are not rare and do not justify the large price increases.

    Joe.

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