I just don't get VAMs.

PerryHall

I collect US gold and there are plenty of varieties which I enjoy collecting. But die cracks and die clashes are fairly common and nobody gives them special consideration or a variety number and certainly nobody pays extra for them. I can understand double dies, repunched mint marks, over dates, etc, but why are die cracks and die clashes given special variety numbers or any special attention at all by Morgan collectors? Am I the only one that feels this way? Help me understand.

slipgate

I knew I liked you - THANK YOU!

ziggy29

I think the bottom line is simply that Morgans are extremely popular and a portion of those collecting the series have a desire to go above and beyond date and mint collecting.

TwoSides2aCoin

I agree with you Perry, in actuality.

But truly, there are these variety collectors that made discoveries along the way. It is what drives their passion. I would imagine Braddick is somewhat of a zealot with regards to the Sacagawea for much the same reason.
When they (morgans) were first discovered with their several flaws, and such, it was an amazing thing. Attribution of them is only a way for PCGS to say, "okay, we will designate them further cuz that is where collector demand drove the market.

But, I will say I am sure glad they don't have VAM issues for pennies, nickels , dimes , quarters and halves.... this could run a numismatist out of coins and into a metalurgical field ... Like MINING or being a press operator maintenance guy, tool and die work ...or even a quality control specialist at the MINT . What say you ?

DennisH

Diversifying into VAMs means your Morgan or Peace dollar collection never has to be completed.

And look at it like this: With us whackos concentrating on VAMs, it means we're not out there competing with normal folks for any other series of coins!

hiyosilver

<< I collect US gold and there are plenty of varieties which I enjoy collecting. But die cracks and die clashes are fairly common and nobody gives them special consideration or a variety number and certainly nobody pays extra for them. I can understand double dies, repunched mint marks, over dates, etc, but why are die cracks and die clashes given special variety numbers or any special attention at all by Morgan collectors? Am I the only one that feels this way? Help me understand. >>


I will gladly trade you a 1853 2-1/2$ Liberty w/a repunched date for a common as dirt pcgs ms65 1921-D Morgan VAM 1A .........

eyoung429

I would have to concur with Dennis on this one. You can have a "standard" collection of Morgans, or you can have a "Toned" collection. But if you stop and consider the collectors who have those sets and are looking to diversify what they have compaired to another collector of the same status. You can see by looking at all the different Vams of a given year are ALONE a collection in themselves.

Take 1878.... you can have your normal S, O, and P

But if you are a Vammer, there is so much more of an open field for collection.

morganvamclashie

I can appreciate your question as there are a great many clashed Morgan dollars that do not show any great detail. However, you have to be careful when you lump ALL clashed coins together. In my study of clashed varieties, approx one in every 50 Morgan dollars may show some signs of clashing. Of those 1 out of 50 with clashing, only around 1 in 10 will show ANY clashed letter detail and be considered a seperate clashed variety. So around one out of every 500 Morgan dollars may show clashed details that would be considered a clashed variety.

With millions of Morgan dollars being produced, having one in every 500 being a clashed variety allows for a great many coins to be found. However, there is a vast difference in the lightly clashed examples and the EXTRAORDINARY clashed varieties. Similar to the TOP 100 varieties, there is a listing of the most extraordinary clashed varieties called the SUPER CLASHED DIES (or CD's for short). This is a group of 25 clashed varieties that show incredible detail. This helps to seperate the ordinary clashed variety from the INCREDIBLE.

So to answer your first question, "why the excietment about certain clashed varieties?" The answer, THEY ARE INCREDIBLE FINDS. The photos provided offers just one such example. The details of the reverse motto can be found clashed strongly in front of Ms. Liberty's neck. These are details that are eyeball visible, and striking!

Your next question is equally as important, why is there special attention paid to certain clashed varieties. You have volunteered that you recongnize some RPM or RPD are collectable, yet there is rarely any damage done to the dies when a RPM or RPD is created. In the case of the 1880 CC VAM 4,5, and 6 thousands of examples are known to still exist. There really is no great RARITY to the variety, yet it is wildly popular and carries a premium even with thousands of examples known to exist. Curious.

In the case of the clashed varieties it is rare if the clashing DOES NOT cause damage. Most clashed dies suffer die cracks as a result or show signs of significant wear already by the time the dies clash. In the above mentioned photo of the 1889 P VAM 23A there are only THREE examples known to exist!!!!!

So in this case the answer to your second question, why all the excitment. It is simple. Add some incredibly INTERESTING details on top of some extreme RARITY and you have the makings for an incredibly VALUABLE coin.

I happen to know that an XF example of the 1889 P VAM 23A sold for just over $7,000 and an AU example sold for $20,000 in 2005. Kind of makes them worth looking for in my book.

Mark

PerryHall

Don't get me wrong. I love varieties: repunched mint marks, doubled dies, repunched dates, etc. Its just that die cracks and die clashes are too common and too numerous to be considered as a separate variety. Are there any other series where die cracks and die clashes are considered a specific variety and given their own variety number in a book dedicated to that series?

MrBreeze

When you have over 100,000 coins certified for one date alone, you need something to distinguish 1 from the other 99,999.

DennisH

Large cent collectors also get heavily involved in regarding cracks as varieties.

morganvamclashie

<< <i>Don't get me wrong. I love varieties: repunched mint marks, doubled dies, repunched dates, etc. Its just that die cracks and die clashes are too common and too numerous to be considered as a separate variety. Are there any other series where die cracks and die clashes are considered a specific variety and given their own variety number in a book dedicated to that series? >>



Not yet, but I have been working on another book for another series that shows incredible clashed details. It will be a few years before I think that book will be ready however, but to let you know it is in the making. Up until the 1860 no one ever thought of collecting by date and MINT MARK, but now it is considered essential for a 'complete' set. Just because no one has done it before does not make it a bad idea. VAM collecting is still in its infancy, and already it has made a HUGE impact. Take any series of U.S. coins and ask yourself what is the most valuable coin in each series. Without exception that I can think of the VARIETIES capture the most attention. 3 legged Buffalo nickel, 1942/41 dime, 1955 DDO penny, the ultra rare 8TF Morgan dollar varieties. Ect. Ect.

What I think you may be missing here is a HUGE opportunity to get in on the beggining of the next evolution in collecting. People are no longer satisfied with putting together a date and mint mark set. What is the challenge in that when at 2:00 AM on any given day you can go on ebay and put such a set together. Part of the fun of collecting is in the challenge of putting the set together. Take the next step, put together a clashed SUPER CD collection, and see yourself in for a challenge, yet you can still attend any large show accross the country and find a few examples. NOW THAT IS FUN MY FRIEND!!

morganvamclashie

By the way, the 3 legged Buffalo nickel happens to be a CLASHED VARIETY!!

PerryHall

<< <i>Large cent collectors also get heavily involved in regarding cracks as varieties. >>



Aren't you talking about "die states" rather than varieties when you get into die cracks on large cents?

RYK

I generally agree with PerryHall, but just because I/we (and others) do not care for them, certainly does not diminish the value of VAMs as a collecting interest. By nature, I am not enough into the minute detail of a coin to be a variety collector. Many Morgan collectors (apparently) are, and this is a way to take Morgan collecting to the next level.

Also, some Morgans are so extremely common by date, collecting VAMs allows a Morgan collector who would like to pursue rare coins to do so. I am sure that it also very gratifying also to cherrypick dealers at shows, scoop up undiscovered rarities, "create" new varieties, etc. In some ways, I am envious that others can find enjoyment in doing so. It is just not my cup of tea.

keets

why...........probably to add some zing to an easily collected and popular series which could see a complete set assembled by date at a major show rather easily, with the exception of perhaps a few dates. besides, i think that collectors by nature are rather obsessive and VAM collecting seems to feed off that aspect.

13PacesEast

VAM's Disease is funny.

Wolf359

Rarity & Popularity.

How many 1893-S Morgans have survived? Maybe a thousand? And look what they trade
for. Take the 1889 VAM-23A Mark posted. Three are known of this unique clash, which
explains the sale prices. Or the1901-P DDR, Shifted Eagle. Maybe a hundred or two hundred are
known to exist. The market wants more, so prices rise. You'll find that many vams are much
scarcer than even the rarest Morgan dates.

US Gold being much more expensive than common silver dollars has probably held back
the variety market in that series.

messydesk

It's really not much different than how big copper or bust halves have been collected for quite some time. Look at 1827 bust halves. There are over 40 different known die pairings. Some people that collect the series like the different die states of each (i.e., die cracks, clashes, erosion), while some collect by date and have only one 1827 half.

The big difference with Morgan and Peace dollar VAMs is that there is much more material available, and quite a bit is affordable in fairly high grades to those of modest means. The prospect of finding something that hasn't been found before is attractive to many, myself included. Put those facts together and you get a lot of people looking at lots of different things in these series that interest them. For some it's more "traditional" conquests, like completing a Top 100 Morgan, Top 50 Peace, or 1878 VAM set. For others, it could be finding neat die breaks or die clashes, cataloging them, and then discovering through that process that some are rarer than others. To each his (or her, for Becky) own.

The thrill of discovery drives many people, otherwise Christopher Columbus would have just sailed up the coast and discovered France.

wam98

Look at Wolf359's Donkey tail icon. One of the neatest die cracks IMHO. Clashed Morgans are interesting also, but I'm still working in the Top 100 & Hot 50.

Conder101

<< <i>Large cent collectors also get heavily involved in regarding cracks as varieties. >>


Not true. Die stages maybe, and a particular die crack or break may be used as an easy identifying feature for a variety if most examples come with it

After die production switched to the use of complete design hubs in 1836 the only way to identify different reverse dies were from tiny marks left from the polishing of the dies or die cracks and gouges.

When the VAM book started I believe they assigned numbers for identification of defiinite die pairings. Eventually they began assining nuw numbers based on temporary features such as different die polishings and clashes. Rcently they have realized that this was an error and they no longer give new numbers for die clashes.

Now a die crack CAN be used to tell two dies apart as long as BOTH dies have die cracks. A die crack can not be used to seperate a cracked die from an uncracked one. They may be the same die, just in diferent die states.

1921obsession

For me, it's about exclusivity without the usual accompanying price of admission. I'm hardly rich, and even I could assemble an almost-complete series of nice Morgans for well under $100 per coin as long as I didn't mind having the same thing that thousands of other people have. I don't care for that. I like collecting rare coins.

Right now there is a significant sweet spot for meeting my personal desires in the area of Morgan VAMs, and 1921's specifically. I've over 30 coins identified on Rob Joyce's website, none worse than AU, and my total investment still hasn't neared $1000. Every day for me is a thrilling chase. Even better is the possibility that I might find something unique, and be the original contributor of a new VAM.

Nothing else carries the same combination of rarity and affordability. I agree with those who have prophesied that this niche is about to explode, and that's a further reason for me to stock up. As if I needed one.

DorkGirl

"Nothing else carries the same combination of rarity and affordability."

I couldn't agree more. How good do you feel when you bring home a O/CC or another great VAM for no premium? You feel great!! VAMming isn't all about "A" or monster color or MS68DMPL, it's about the thrill of finding an R-6+ coin no matter what shape it's in. A beat up POS with the right VAM on it will make my day I just can't and won't try to keep up with the big boys with the deep pockets with the high MS and color coins any more, but I still love the Morgan series. VAMming is how I have been able to put the fun back in my Morgan collection. If you would have asked me 5 years ago about VAMs, I would have said you were nuts, now I'm one of the crazy VAMmers

Nysoto

For bust halves, die cracks can represent a die state subvariety designated by a letter (101a), although sometimes they do not if the crack is found on all or most examples, or if the crack is not significant. Die clashes do not represent die state sub-varieties, as there are often multiple clashes, and oftentimes clashmarks are lapped off of the die.

I do not collect VAMs but I understand their allure - possible cherry-picks of rare examples, a deeper understanding of the series and the minting process, interesting varieties, and a lot more fun than simply buying high grade examples. VAMs are in their infancy with more varieties out there to be discovered, and rarities will change as more are found.

messydesk

<< <i>When the VAM book started I believe they assigned numbers for identification of defiinite die pairings. Eventually they began assining nuw numbers based on temporary features such as different die polishings and clashes. Rcently they have realized that this was an error and they no longer give new numbers for die clashes. >>


Not entirely true. New numbers weren't given for transient die damage (gouges or clashes), and they still aren't. A suffix letter is added to the VAM number matching the die sinking features of the coin in this case. In some cases, the suffixes indicate die stage progression, but more often, they simply indicate discernably unique damage on a die otherwise indistinguishable from another with the same number. A new number may be added if there are unreported die sinking characteristics. In some cases of transient die damage, die stages have also been identified. Two examples in the Morgan series are 1921 VAM 3A, which has 3 stages, now called 3A1 through 3A3, and 1921-S VAM 1B, with 8 stages. Many of the popular Peace dollar varieties are those with large die breaks. For some of these, many different die stages have been identified, although they haven't been cataloged as such, since the development of a die break is a little different from development and removal of clashes and gouges.

The only things that are no longer given distinct VAM designations are striking errors, such as filled dies.

Coxe

VAMs are a highly sophisticated approach to collecting. Varieties works well in this regard for Morgan and Peace dollars because, despite huge melts, a lot of them were [scandalously] produced without serious commercial need and consequently there are tons of them around, many for anyone.

I have been a prooflike Morgan collector for a long time. In the past, before 100% auction catalogue imaging, flaws, marks and other details were called out to attention to identify a pedigree piece of significant provenance. Many collectors did and do the same for their coins and ones they have not gotten but in which they have interest. When the VAM book first came out, I found it to be a great reference to designate my Morgans per the die pair identified by the authors. Now, when Jeff's and Michael's Top 100 book came out, my focus turned around, as did some others' I suspect. Instead of merely identifying the pairs used for my Morgans, I was looking for other Morgans by the pairs, those in the book and other interesting ones. To date, the VAM book has only identified a fraction of the die pairs actually used by the Mints; so this is a growing specialty.

Some of the VAMs are not distinct die pairings but interesting states of their usage. Clashed dies introduces a further level of interest. What we have is a collecting subspecialty that is embracing the life of the minting process. It follows die use, reuse, repairing, clashing, repolishing, detailing the life of the design. Some intermediate and terminal states are not just fascinating but downright rare, relative to other states of the same die pair. This specialty requires looking at a lot of coins, looking more closely at one own's coins, and applying a lot of reasoning skills to a requisite level of knowledge of the minting process.

Silver dollars have come a LONG way in a half century. They came in being largely dismissed as collectible and selling not much over face value for many dates. Discriminations of those coins has consistently grown in detail, generally thanks to a core growing population of thinking numismatists. Remember that there was a time when mint marks were not a consideration for most collectors. This explosion in VAMs might seem like splitting hairs to an excessive extent, but is just carrying on the that same legacy.

VAMs and varieties are not for everyone. It requires a lot more attention and dedication to a series than probably most collectors really want to invest timewise. It is natural for others though. Those of us who collected half cents and large cents by variety and die state in the past actually find VAM collecting a refreshingly approachable place to go. Certainly there is a lot more potential to find most or al varieties cherrypicking, something those old coppers realistically couldn't offer in a collecting lifetime.

MAD4MORGANS

I collect VAMs.

Most of them I melt down and make jewelry out of them though ...especially the "imperfect" ones with cracks and chunks of metal on them!!

The one in my avitar is now a nice keychain fob.

Artist

There are so many approaches to coin collecting - and in turn definitions as to what defines a coin collection.

For many of us, the holes in those blue Whitman folders defined our collections - or perhaps it was a special holder (i.e. Mercury short set, 20th Century Type Set, etc.) - or today maybe it is a Registry program. In reality, a collection can be anything one defines it to be.

In that spirit, I see the VAM phenominum as somewhat similiar to moderns - both began with people focusing on material that at the time was largely off the radar of most collectors. In some sense, I think that pioneering approach speaks to the essence of our hobby.

coinkat

VAMS are great and worth exploring. The 1901 DDR and the 88-O Hot Lips are classics... While I am done with these there is still alot of interest

billboat

As I said in another thread--I collect Morgans and don't get the VAM thing either--but if it makes people happy to collect them then more power to them! I personally love coins with die cracks and cuds--regardless of series or value added at sale--just think they are interesting.

UncleWiggly

The answer to what you are wondering about was answered over a year ago here on the forums. The explanation is simple!!!!



Jerry

MrSpud

Ummm.... my understanding is that it isn't anything special if it just involves die cracks or clashes, there has to be doubling, die breaks or a transfer of a letter when a clash occurs for a VAM to be special. It is just like searching through rolls of coins looking for RPM's or double dies which are die varieties. Many die varieties are somewhat boring to me, but I find it fun to look for VAMs at coin shows. It is fun to try and cherrypick them and when you find one that is worth a premium it feels like you won the lottery.