What numismatic terms/conventions are still commonly used, even though they may have been discredite
Longacre
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In another thread, Colonialcoinunion reponded to a post about the Fugio restrike cent. He raised an interesting comment, and one that might warrant some addtional discussion. He stated:
"I did want to point out, however, that the coin which is the subject of this thread is listed in the 2006 Guide Book on page 84 as a 'New Haven restrike' despite the fact that it likely was not produced in New Haven and that is was struck from copy dies. Thats simply what they are called.
Some numismatic conventions continue to remain in common usage even after their original basis has been disproven or discredited."
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Does anyone have any other numismatic conventions that continue to remain in common usage, even after they have been disproven? I think this would be interesting to discuss. Also, thanks for CCU for bringing up this point.
"I did want to point out, however, that the coin which is the subject of this thread is listed in the 2006 Guide Book on page 84 as a 'New Haven restrike' despite the fact that it likely was not produced in New Haven and that is was struck from copy dies. Thats simply what they are called.
Some numismatic conventions continue to remain in common usage even after their original basis has been disproven or discredited."
********
Does anyone have any other numismatic conventions that continue to remain in common usage, even after they have been disproven? I think this would be interesting to discuss. Also, thanks for CCU for bringing up this point.
Always took candy from strangers
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
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"Capped Die" in reference to the 1879-CC VAM 3 CC/CC pitted reverse, which has nothing to do with die caps.
"7/8 Tailfeathers," which appears not to have anything to do with an 8TF reverse being involved in the working hub pile-up.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
(Disclaimer: I'm really hoping that more collectors will desire them as government coinage, and my single example will soar in value.
Joe
<< <i>That little Hallie Daggett spent one of her 1894-S dimes to buy some ice cream on the way home. First of all, that probably didn't happen, and second of all, she wasn't such a little girl -- she was born in 1878 and so would have been 15 or 16. >>
If this did not happen I am really dis-stressed.....
Ken
Other conventions:
The vast majority of what is called "die rust" is not die rust at all. The 1804 restrike cent shows die rust. Those other little pocks and raised artifacts on early coins are most likely spalling, a way impurities in die steel can emerge on the surface. Craig Sholley (Rittenhouse on the boards) first popularized this notion and I think he's absolutely right.
I'm surprised at the amount of people who still call the 1792 half disme a pattern. It was struck in large numbers (1500 pieces) for circulation and most known examples are worn. We even know how they left Philadelphia (in one lump sum, to Thomas Jefferson). Despite the fact that they were not struck at the uncompleted Philadelphia Mint, I think calling them patterns is incorrect.
In the Franco-American jeton and other medal series, the notion of original vs. restrike is an old and incorrect convention. Medals were struck as needed for long periods of time (in both the US and Europe) and no solid line can typically be drawn. Die states range the gamut and planchet stocks ebb and flow in size, but there is really not a line for many medals where one can be called "original" and another "restrike." Pieces struck from similar copy dies are obviously a different ball of wax.
The idea that bent Pine Tree shillings have something to do with witches still lives on despite evidence to the contrary.
I'm sure we can come up with a lot more!
Betts medals, colonial coins, US Mint medals, foreign coins found in early America, and other numismatic Americana
How many times have we seen that expression, only to learn that it was not true.
<< <i>"Breen considered _________ to be extremely rare."
How many times have we seen that expression, only to learn that it was not true. >>
Never...the statement IS true...Breen did believe those coins were rare. He was merely mistaken.
My pet peeve is when dealers or auctioneers in 2006 in coin descriptions write: "Breen said this issue was prohibitively rare above XF," when we all recognize that this is no longer the case.
"I can tell the difference between Natural Toning and Artificial Toning."
Wannabe----used routinely by the queen of them all who was fooled by a thumbed Gold coin a few years ago.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
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<< <i>Most of what we call "colonials" were struck after the end of the Revolution, but we stick by the convention because "pre-Federal coinages" isn't as neat and tidy a term. >>
Actually, we stopped being a colony on July 4, 1776----America's birthday. True colonial coins were struck before this date.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
You can also add her second most favorite term---widget.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>Actually, we stopped being a colony on July 4, 1776----America's birthday. True colonial coins were struck before this date. >>
Maybe, though simply declaring yourself independent doesn't make it officially so. One could also argue that it happened when Cornwallis surrendered at Yorktown in 1781, or upon the signing of the Treaty of Paris in 1783.
Please get your facts straight .... and then when you're at it, explain to us how her warnings might pertain to a certain Peace dollar being sold for huge amounts of money....
<< <i>Territorial gold. Name one piece that was struck in a "territory" when that state was a territory. >>
You're on.
How about the Mormon gold pieces of 1849? Or the Colorado pieces of 1860-61? These were struck in territories.
you're too fast! But I did zap my comment before you nailed me.
The Oregon Beavers were struck in Oregon Territory.
The 1861 Clark Grubers qualify, but the 1860's don't.
The 1849 Mormons don't qualify, but some of the 1850's may. Utah became a territory in late 1850.
None of the California issues are territorials.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>
<< <i>Actually, we stopped being a colony on July 4, 1776----America's birthday. True colonial coins were struck before this date. >>
Maybe, though simply declaring yourself independent doesn't make it officially so. One could also argue that it happened when Cornwallis surrendered at Yorktown in 1781, or upon the signing of the Treaty of Paris in 1783. >>
It must be officially so since it's a national holiday.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
man, i knew i'd hook smoeone with that post, i just didn't think it would be you and i didn't think it would take so long.
I don't know what the status of Utah was in 1849, but it may have been attached to another territory, just as Wisconsin was part of Michigan Territory before Wisconsin Territory was organized in 1836.
Tom D.
<< <i>How about the Mormon gold pieces of 1849? Or the Colorado pieces of 1860-61? These were struck in territories.
you're too fast! But I did zap my comment before you nailed me.
The Oregon Beavers were struck in Oregon Territory.
The 1861 Clark Grubers qualify, but the 1860's don't.
The 1849 Mormons don't qualify, but some of the 1850's may. Utah became a territory in late 1850.
None of the California issues are territorials. >>
The term given to cents minted in Philly in 1955 from dies that were so worn the outside edge of the last 5 of the date was shadow doubled. This has nothing at all to do with doubled dies, yet they still sell at a premium because of the misconception that they are something scarce....in actuality they are more common than 1955 cents without the problem.
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"Buy the book before the coin" - it depends on the price of the coin
and the price of the book.
Local residents had tried to organize what they called Jefferson Territory in 1859, but it was never recognized by Congress.
Tom DeLorey
<< <i>Au contraire. Denver was in a Territory in 1860. It just wasn't Colorado Territory.
I don't know what the status of Utah was in 1849, but it may have been attached to another territory, just as Wisconsin was part of Michigan Territory before Wisconsin Territory was organized in 1836.
Tom D.
<< <i>How about the Mormon gold pieces of 1849? Or the Colorado pieces of 1860-61? These were struck in territories.
you're too fast! But I did zap my comment before you nailed me.
The Oregon Beavers were struck in Oregon Territory.
The 1861 Clark Grubers qualify, but the 1860's don't.
The 1849 Mormons don't qualify, but some of the 1850's may. Utah became a territory in late 1850.
None of the California issues are territorials. >>
>>
<< <i>Actually, we stopped being a colony on July 4, 1776----America's birthday. True colonial coins were struck before this date. >>
You make a good point. The trouble what would be a good short cut name for coins that were issued for the U.S. circulation during the period from 1782 to 1789 when Washington took office? During that time we were under the Articles of Confederation. We could call them "Confederates," but that might be confusing given what happened from 1861 to '65.
<< <i>"PQ" >>
You might consider the term "PQ" to be discredited, but if it is used properly, those who take it to heart might be quite pleased in the future that they did. A true "PQ" coin is easier to sell than a run-of-the-mill example for the grade. AND if grade-flation takes hold, it could be a crack out and up grade candidate in the future.
BUT there are Kool-Aid drinkers out there who believe the TPG Co. line that all MS-65 (or whatever grade) coins are created equally. For those of you who ascribe to that fiction, the term "PQ" is meaningless.
<< <i>
<< <i>Actually, we stopped being a colony on July 4, 1776----America's birthday. True colonial coins were struck before this date. >>
You make a good point. The trouble what would be a good short cut name for coins that were issued for the U.S. circulation during the period from 1782 to 1789 when Washington took office? During that time we were under the Articles of Confederation. We could call them "Confederates," but that might be confusing given what happened from 1861 to '65.
How about "Confederation coins"? I doubt people are going to change the terminology that they are use to.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
There is an element of art and history and tradition in coin collecting which should be cherished and protected, not undone, sanitized and made to adhere to the metric system.