~"Of course win percentage is important, doesn't Whitey Ford have the all-time record ????"~
Among pitchers from the 20th century Pedro Martinez is the leader at .701. Whitey Ford would be second at .690.
So many great pitchers to choose from. Pedro Martinez is the best pitcher I have seen in the last 30 years. What a pitcher can definately control Martinez is as good as it gets - high strikeouts, low walks, does not allow many extra base hits and keeps the ball in the park. Most of the names mentioned all have those statistical traits in common. However, there are so many factors to consider and for Martinez his lack of innings pitched is big.
Ed Walsh was indeed a great pitcher, and his lifetime ERA of 1.82 is outstanding. But, the average pitcher pitching in the time and in the parks that Walsh pitched in, had an ERA of 2.63. That makes him 0.81 better than average. By comparison Walter Johnson had an ERA of 2.17 vs. an average of 3.17, or 1.00 better. And Johnson pitched almost exactly twice as many innings as Walsh. So, while Walsh was a great pitcher (his career runs allowed is 267 better than average, a solid HOF number), he is not in the same league as the names I listed before. He is (cough, cough) significantly below Blyleven in the runs allowed category, for example.
Ford does have the best won/lost record, which is hardly surprising. He was a great pitcher and he pitched for one of the greatest baseball dynasties ever. If we condense Ford's career to 1954-1958, and it is fairly representative IMO, he had a W/L% of .703 which is almost exactly what his lifetime W/L was before his last two "trying to hang on even though I'm done" seasons. Over that same period, the Yankees W/L was .631; so Ford was .071 better than his team. That's great, even HOF caliber, but hardly the best ever. For example, using Bob Gibson and the years 1965-1969, we get .644 over .554 - a .090 gap. {I'm using the 5-year span rather than the whole career because I'm lazy, but I don't think it changes anything.} Walter Johnson, who was on a team that never won a pennant until he was 36 years old with over 5,000 innnings under his belt, also has better "better than team" numbers than Ford, as do most if not all of the pitchers with a claim as the greatest ever.
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
All great points. Dallas you seem to do wonderful research I'm always captivated by your figures and your justifications with them.
But if folks if we're going to keep talking about Ford and Palmer and yat yat yat. Does not the fact that Maddux won 15 games or more for 17 straight years ( Even the all time wins leader Cy Young who set the mark of excellence didn't accomplish that) with out being a power pitcher rather a control freak, with the lowest run support on the Braves staff in the 90's make him the greatest BAR NONE???? I mean come on he pitched in a hitter era and he still managed to kick but year after year, game after game. I know batters don't wake up in the morning and go Gee I hope we face Greg Maddux today. I'm not saying the rest are not worthy of this status but if I'm goanna pick one why not Maddux!!!!?? Just MHO
Joe
88 Donruss - 1st All Time Finest Set Don Sutton Basic Set - 3rd All Time
Looking for 88 Donruss PSA 9 or Higher Looking for Sutton's PSA 7 or Higher
<< <i>I'm not saying the rest are not worthy of this status but if I'm goanna pick one why not Maddux!!!!?? >>
Joe,
Personally, I think Walter Johnson is the best - weighting the accomplishments that I think are most important the heaviest, he comes out ahead - but I did mean it when I said a reasonable argument could be made for any of the 9 pitchers I listed: W. Johnson, Grove, Young, Clemens, R. Johnson, Seaver, Pedro, Alexander and Maddux. As impressive as his W/L consistency is though, I think a better argument in Maddux's favor would start with his ERA and runs allowed stats; they are phenomenal and they do not depend on the rest of his team in the way that his W/L stats do. For his career, Maddux is about 70 points better than his teams in W/L % - great, but there are more pitchers that beat him in that stat than in the runs allowed stat. The second point of a Maddux argument, IMO, would focus on 1994-1995; no pitcher in history - possibly excepting Pedro - has a two-year run that good. Third, control. Of the 9 contenders, only Pedro has a better K / W ratio than Maddux.
All told, Maddux comes out behind Pedro in almost everything - but usually just by a little bit - right with the "pack of 9" in most things and ahead of everybody else in a few key things. But since he has pitched about 80% more innings than Pedro - there you have it, a reasonable argument that Maddux is the greatest of all time.
FWIW, I'd rank them: W. Johnson, Clemens, Grove, Maddux, Seaver, Young, Pedro, R. Johnson, Alexander. But I wouldn't call any ordering of these 9 "wrong", it just depends on what you think is most important.
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
I would agree with dallasactuary in that how you rate the pitchers depends on the value you place on each relevant statistic. In Bill James big book he ranks them: Johnson, Grove, Alexander, Young, Spahn, Seaver, Mathewson, Gibson, Nichols and Koufax. Clemens was #11 so he would have moved up by now.
It is clearly based on people interpretation. In an earlier post somebody mentioned that Koufax only was "really great" because of Dodger Stadium. I kind of look at the other viewpoint. Koufax was a very good pitcher before the team moved into Dodger Stadium but the Los Angeles Coliseum killed him with the fence 250 feet from home on the left field line. Had he pitched in a neutral park he would have been dominant for a longer time. Although it is off topic what is truly amazing is that the 1962 Los Angeles Dodgers playing in Dodger Stadium scored more runs than the 1961 New York Yankees.
While we all have own "special" criteria for ranking pitchers..............
I find it unforfunate that most will leave Ed Walsh off their top ten lists, the best pitcher ever via ERA over a lifetime.
Christy Mathewson also seems a bit slighted, he was a force of almost unmatched ability in his prime.
FWIW, my top ten; ( Active hurlers left out until their final stats are in) Walter Johnson and Lefty Grove tied for number one, the next eight in no particular order...J Maichal, B Gibson, S Koufax, W Ford, T Seaver, B Feller, C Mathewson, E Walsh.
This aint no party,... this aint no disco,.. this aint no fooling around.
With the exception of Feller, all of your last 8 pitched in eras and/or parks where ERAs were low by historical standards - really, really low in the case of Walsh and Mathewson. Without some comparison to the average Walsh might look better than G.C. Alexander or Cy Young, albeit for only a relatively short time. I would disagree that a top 10 list could exclude either one of them even when the modern pitchers are included, but I really disagree that they could be left off with the modern pitchers excluded. Look again at their records - there's just no way to weight it to get Walsh or Marichal or Ford past Young or Alexander. No shame in that - those two are legends for a reason!
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
I admit I'm biased because I've read several books about Christy Mathewson, but I vote for "Big Six".
Christy came into Baseball when it had a shady reputation and he almost single-handedly brought respect to The Game. He was the All-American College boy and he was the biggest idol in Baseball in the first part of the 20th Century. Of the top 5 hurlers in wins....Christy [373 wins 188 losses] is #1 in winning percentage at .665. [Alexander is second at .642].
Consider his amazing 1905 World Series in which he pitched 3 complete shutouts in a 6 day period! Christy allowed no runs, 14 hits and one walk over 27 innings against Connie Mack's powerful Philadelphia A's...one of the greatest baseball feats of all time.
Her is a little Fast fact I found in the baseball Almanac
Pete Rose once commented that: Sandy Koufax was the hardest thrower, Bob Gibson was the best competitor, and Juan Marichal was the most complete pitcher. When Gibson heard the comment he replied, "I throw harder than Sandy!"
Joe
88 Donruss - 1st All Time Finest Set Don Sutton Basic Set - 3rd All Time
Looking for 88 Donruss PSA 9 or Higher Looking for Sutton's PSA 7 or Higher
Koufax was an amazing pitcher... ranks in the top 5 ever for me, but...
in response to the question earlier on this thread of what turned him from average in the 1950s to legendary in the 1960s...
I thought it was a well known fact that the umpires changed (opened up) the strike zone in the early 1960s. I thought this was a well accepted fact, but perhaps I have it wrong. Baseball history buffs often equate the change in strike zone to the dominance of pitching in the 1960s (at least the ones I know).
I would leave Drysdale and Ford off my list. Good pitchers throwing for big name teams, but surely NOT great.
Top 17 for me (in no order):
Cy young, Walter Johnson, Lefty Grove, C. Mathewson, Feller, Spahn, Gibson, Koufax, Marichal, Ryan, Palmer, Seaver, Carlton, P. Martinez, Clemens, Maddux, R. Johnson
That's a fine top 17 but why is everybody leaving Grover Cleveland Alexander off their lists? Bumped for Koufax or Ryan? I'm skeptical, but I can see the argument. Bumped for Marichal or Palmer? That would take some 'splainin.
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
Yeah I would agree dallasactuary Grover Cleveland deserves it. Take Marichal or Palmer off and add him and DON SUTTON to the top 17. LOL IMO I must say Sutton makes as good announcer as a pitcher, but again I'm partial. For the most part a super list RG58.
Joe
88 Donruss - 1st All Time Finest Set Don Sutton Basic Set - 3rd All Time
Looking for 88 Donruss PSA 9 or Higher Looking for Sutton's PSA 7 or Higher
"Pitching has become tougher and more demanding and it's harder to throw consistently for as long a period as it would take to win three-hundred (300) games. It would take a tremendous amount of dedication to do that." - Former Pitcher & New York Yankees Pitching Coach Mel Stottlemyre
Another reason why I think Maddux and Clememns will be the best I'll ever see in my lifetime.
Joe
88 Donruss - 1st All Time Finest Set Don Sutton Basic Set - 3rd All Time
Looking for 88 Donruss PSA 9 or Higher Looking for Sutton's PSA 7 or Higher
Here is Koufax road records for 1960 to 1966 60 - 3.00 era 126 K's in 105 IP 61 - 2.78 era 132 K's in 130 IP 62 - 3.53 era 98 K's in 82 IP 63 - 2.31 era 162 K's in 167 IP 64 - 2.93 era 99 K's in 95 IP 65 - 2.72 era 174 K's in 166 IP 66 - 1.96 era 157 K's in 152 IP
So when exactly did the Umpires change the strike zone and when did Koufax learn to control his curve?
Here are the home records: 60 - 5.27 era 71 K's in 70 IP 61 - 4.29 era137 K's in 126 IP 62 - 1.75 era 118 K's in 103 IP 63 - 1.38 era 144 K's in 144 IP 64 - 0.85 era 124 K's in 128 IP 65 - 1.38 era 208 K's in 170 IP 66 - 1.52 era 160 K's in 171 IP
Something happened between 61 and 62 that greatly affected Koufax but only at home. That was the year the Dodgers moved into Dodger stadium. He went from a park that was brutal on left-handed pitchers to a great pitchers park. He was really the great Sandy Koufax starting about 1960 and not 1962.
Someone mentioned Sutton as a broadcaster (as an aside). I am encountering NY fans who loved Seaver as a pitcher but SO HATE HIM as a broadcaster it is affecting their overall impression of him.
ebay:1967topps 1967and 1973 Topps baseball wantlists (any condition) welcome. Once had the #14 ATF 1967 set. Yet another collector like skylaneflyer, gimel1 who made it to the completion of 1967 only to need the money more than the company of 609 close friends. Looking for oddball Norm Cash and Cleon Jones stuff, and 1956 team cards
You are right about Seaver. I don't mind him as an announcer, but I know many who hate him in that capacity. No matter, he is still the greatest I have ever seen in my lifetime.
I can't think of any pitcher who was as dominating as Steve Carlton in 1972. He won almost half of his team's games (27 of the team's 59 wins), had a 1.97 ERA, had 310 K's, 30 complete games and pitched 346 innings. The second highest win total was Bucky Brandon's 7! If Carlton had been on a halfway decent team, he would easily have won 30, without a doubt the greatest single season by a pitcher in the 1970's.
Wow, tough to say who the greatest pitcher of all time is due to the different circumstances, players & materials used. But, my favorites are Sandy Koufax, Don Drysdale, Orel Hershiser, Fernando Valenzuela. Little bit of a theme there, huh?
Yes, I'm a Dodger fan. But, I think that I agree with Bob Gibson, Juan Marichal, Greg Maddux, Nolan Ryan, Cy Young & Walter Johnson....along with Drysdale & Koufax.
* '72 BASEBALL #15 100% * C. PASCUAL BASIC #3 * T. PEREZ BASIC #4 100% * L. TIANT BASIC #1 * DRYSDALE BASIC #4 100% * MAGIC MASTER #4/BASIC #3 * PALMEIRO MASTER/BASIC #1 * '65 DISNEYLAND #2 * '78 ELVIS PRESLEY #6 * '78 THREE'S COMPANY #1
I would go with Walter Johnson. In times past when this type of question has come up, I normally state a little known fact about the "Big Train ".
In 1913 his record was 36 wins and 7 losses with a nifty 1.14 ERA. He did give up an additional 12 unearned runs , which would have raised his ERA to a still nifty 1.46. What was most amazing about his season was that it was the only time in major league history that a pitcher led in least hits/ per 9 innings, least walks / per 9 innings and the most strikeouts / per 9 innings. Domination is the best description for that record.
I believe Roger (please don't use the preformance enhancer word) Clemons was the only other pitcher to land even in the top 3 of his league in each of those catogries in the same season.
Only my 2-1/2 cents, Sonny
" In a time of universal deceit , telling the truth is a revolutionary act " --- George Orwell
Cy young, Walter Johnson, Lefty Grove, C. Mathewson, Feller, Spahn, Gibson, Koufax, Marichal, Ryan, Palmer, Seaver, Carlton, P. Martinez, Clemens, Maddux, R. Johnson >>
This is a great list. To make it a top 20 list I would only add: Eddie Plank, Grover Alexander, and Carl Hubbell.
To answer the second part of the question, I've collected PSA 8 and 9's runs of Marichal, Gibson, Spahn, and Koufax.
I agree on Carlton's fine '72 season. Simply dominant on a very sad team. Take away his numbers and the '72 Phillies could be among the worst five teams in Baseball history.
I actually would take Spahn and Gibson as my 1 and 2's. I think those 2 guys would dominate in any era. Spahn is grossly underrated and people label the guy as a soft tosser but he had some heat according to first hand accounts like Uecker. Why wasn't he a first ballot HOFer?
Edited to add: He also missed 3 years to the war, awarded the bronze star and purple heart and a battlefield comission.
Currently completing the following registry sets: Cardinal HOF's, 1961 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, 1972 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, 1980 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, Bill Mazeroski Master & Basic Sets, Roberto Clemente Master & Basic Sets, Willie Stargell Master & Basic Sets and Terry Bradshaw Basic Set
Spahn was 23-7 in 1963; he was 42 years old! That was truly one of the most remarkable seasons in MLB history. Spahn also holds the record for most hrs by an NL pitcher.
Well, just sticking to guys I've actually seen, I'd have to go with Maddux. I think you have to consider what he's done and the period of baseball in which he's done it... the steroids/HGH/juiced up/HR era! 4 straight Cy Youngs in the mid 90's... including 2 of the best years of all time in '94 & '95. Also one of the most consistent ever as far as wins go... 17 straight years with 15+ wins, and just missed doing it 20 straight years by 2 in 2005 and 1 in 2007. Amazing control... one of the lowest BB allowed of any pitcher all time. Also, up until the last 4-5 years (past his prime) he was very stingy in giving up the long ball. This is especially impressive given the huge HR numbers the league has been putting up throughout his entire career. And, probably the most amazing thing of all... Mad-dog did all this without using illegal performance enhancers like so many of his peers. One may argue that Clemens has the slight edge on Maddux stats wise, but if you really consider Roger's use of steroids and who knows what else, I think Maddux has the definate edge. Realistically, Clemens probably would have been done 5-8 years ago if not for the juicing. You take those years/productivity away, Maddux has the clear edge.
Oh, and one last thing... Maddux also was able to do all of this without head-hunting people who hit him well (a la Clemens)
Jim G All-time favorite athletes: Steve Sax, Steve Garvey, Larry Bird, Jerry Rice, Joe Montana, Andre Agassi, Karch Kiraly, Wayne Gretzky, Ichiro Suzuki, Andres Galarraga, Greg Maddux. "Make the world a better place... punch both A-Rods in the face (Alex Rodriguez and Andy Roddick)!"
PSASAP, I forgot about the HR's as well. He could realistically had 400 wins as well. I agree that Maddux might be the best pitcher to start their Career after 1970.
Currently completing the following registry sets: Cardinal HOF's, 1961 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, 1972 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, 1980 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, Bill Mazeroski Master & Basic Sets, Roberto Clemente Master & Basic Sets, Willie Stargell Master & Basic Sets and Terry Bradshaw Basic Set
I think if Satchell Paige pitched his entire career in the majors leagues he would be near or at the top of the list. He even came back at age 58 in 1965 after being out of the majors for 12 years and pitched 3 innings.
I'll throw you all a curveball and say the best pitcher from recent times is Randy Johnson. Ask any batter who they'd rather face in his prime, Johnson or Greg Maddux. I bet at least 8 say the Big Unit. Plus he won 5 Cy Youngs, including 4 in a row. I'd go Johnson, Clemens (juice not withstanding), Maddux, Pedro, and then a big dropoff.
Koufax had the most dominant stretch in history, and Walter Johnson might get the vote for best ever. He was a strikeout pitcher back when hitters did not strike out!
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
Bill James addressed this statistically in one of the later Baseball Abstract's. His argument was very convincing. Sandy Koufax.
Wanted: Bell Brands FB and BB, Chiefs regionals especially those ugly milk cards, Coke caps, Topps and Fleer inserts and test issues from the 60's. 1981 FB Rack pack w/ Jan Stenerud on top.
Comments
Among pitchers from the 20th century Pedro Martinez is the leader at .701. Whitey Ford would be second at .690.
So many great pitchers to choose from. Pedro Martinez is the best pitcher I have seen in the last 30 years. What a pitcher can definately control Martinez is as good as it gets - high strikeouts, low walks, does not allow many extra base hits and keeps the ball in the park. Most of the names mentioned all have those statistical traits in common. However, there are so many factors to consider and for Martinez his lack of innings pitched is big.
Ed Walsh was indeed a great pitcher, and his lifetime ERA of 1.82 is outstanding. But, the average pitcher pitching in the time and in the parks that Walsh pitched in, had an ERA of 2.63. That makes him 0.81 better than average. By comparison Walter Johnson had an ERA of 2.17 vs. an average of 3.17, or 1.00 better. And Johnson pitched almost exactly twice as many innings as Walsh. So, while Walsh was a great pitcher (his career runs allowed is 267 better than average, a solid HOF number), he is not in the same league as the names I listed before. He is (cough, cough) significantly below Blyleven in the runs allowed category, for example.
Ford does have the best won/lost record, which is hardly surprising. He was a great pitcher and he pitched for one of the greatest baseball dynasties ever. If we condense Ford's career to 1954-1958, and it is fairly representative IMO, he had a W/L% of .703 which is almost exactly what his lifetime W/L was before his last two "trying to hang on even though I'm done" seasons. Over that same period, the Yankees W/L was .631; so Ford was .071 better than his team. That's great, even HOF caliber, but hardly the best ever. For example, using Bob Gibson and the years 1965-1969, we get .644 over .554 - a .090 gap. {I'm using the 5-year span rather than the whole career because I'm lazy, but I don't think it changes anything.} Walter Johnson, who was on a team that never won a pennant until he was 36 years old with over 5,000 innnings under his belt, also has better "better than team" numbers than Ford, as do most if not all of the pitchers with a claim as the greatest ever.
But if folks if we're going to keep talking about Ford and Palmer and yat yat yat. Does not the fact that Maddux won 15 games or more for 17 straight years ( Even the all time wins leader Cy Young who set the mark of excellence didn't accomplish that) with out being a power pitcher rather a control freak, with the lowest run support on the Braves staff in the 90's make him the greatest BAR NONE???? I mean come on he pitched in a hitter era and he still managed to kick but year after year, game after game. I know batters don't wake up in the morning and go Gee I hope we face Greg Maddux today. I'm not saying the rest are not worthy of this status but if I'm goanna pick one why not Maddux!!!!?? Just MHO
Joe
Don Sutton Basic Set - 3rd All Time
Looking for 88 Donruss PSA 9 or Higher
Looking for Sutton's PSA 7 or Higher
<< <i>I'm not saying the rest are not worthy of this status but if I'm goanna pick one why not Maddux!!!!?? >>
Joe,
Personally, I think Walter Johnson is the best - weighting the accomplishments that I think are most important the heaviest, he comes out ahead - but I did mean it when I said a reasonable argument could be made for any of the 9 pitchers I listed: W. Johnson, Grove, Young, Clemens, R. Johnson, Seaver, Pedro, Alexander and Maddux. As impressive as his W/L consistency is though, I think a better argument in Maddux's favor would start with his ERA and runs allowed stats; they are phenomenal and they do not depend on the rest of his team in the way that his W/L stats do. For his career, Maddux is about 70 points better than his teams in W/L % - great, but there are more pitchers that beat him in that stat than in the runs allowed stat. The second point of a Maddux argument, IMO, would focus on 1994-1995; no pitcher in history - possibly excepting Pedro - has a two-year run that good. Third, control. Of the 9 contenders, only Pedro has a better K / W ratio than Maddux.
All told, Maddux comes out behind Pedro in almost everything - but usually just by a little bit - right with the "pack of 9" in most things and ahead of everybody else in a few key things. But since he has pitched about 80% more innings than Pedro - there you have it, a reasonable argument that Maddux is the greatest of all time.
FWIW, I'd rank them: W. Johnson, Clemens, Grove, Maddux, Seaver, Young, Pedro, R. Johnson, Alexander. But I wouldn't call any ordering of these 9 "wrong", it just depends on what you think is most important.
It is clearly based on people interpretation. In an earlier post somebody mentioned that Koufax only was "really great" because of Dodger Stadium. I kind of look at the other viewpoint. Koufax was a very good pitcher before the team moved into Dodger Stadium but the Los Angeles Coliseum killed him with the fence 250 feet from home on the left field line. Had he pitched in a neutral park he would have been dominant for a longer time. Although it is off topic what is truly amazing is that the 1962 Los Angeles Dodgers playing in Dodger Stadium scored more runs than the 1961 New York Yankees.
I find it unforfunate that most will leave Ed Walsh off their top ten lists, the best pitcher ever via ERA over a lifetime.
Christy Mathewson also seems a bit slighted, he was a force of almost unmatched ability in his prime.
FWIW, my top ten; ( Active hurlers left out until their final stats are in) Walter Johnson and Lefty Grove tied for number one, the next eight in no particular order...J Maichal, B Gibson, S Koufax, W Ford, T Seaver, B Feller, C Mathewson, E Walsh.
With the exception of Feller, all of your last 8 pitched in eras and/or parks where ERAs were low by historical standards - really, really low in the case of Walsh and Mathewson. Without some comparison to the average Walsh might look better than G.C. Alexander or Cy Young, albeit for only a relatively short time. I would disagree that a top 10 list could exclude either one of them even when the modern pitchers are included, but I really disagree that they could be left off with the modern pitchers excluded. Look again at their records - there's just no way to weight it to get Walsh or Marichal or Ford past Young or Alexander. No shame in that - those two are legends for a reason!
Christy came into Baseball when it had a shady reputation and he almost single-handedly brought respect to The Game. He was the All-American College boy and he was the biggest idol in Baseball in the first part of the 20th Century. Of the top 5 hurlers in wins....Christy [373 wins 188 losses] is #1 in winning percentage at .665. [Alexander is second at .642].
Consider his amazing 1905 World Series in which he pitched 3 complete shutouts in a 6 day period! Christy allowed no runs, 14 hits and one walk over 27 innings against Connie Mack's powerful Philadelphia A's...one of the greatest baseball feats of all time.
Always looking for 1957 Topps BB in PSA 9!
Pete Rose once commented that: Sandy Koufax was the hardest thrower, Bob Gibson was the best competitor, and Juan Marichal was the most complete pitcher. When Gibson heard the comment he replied, "I throw harder than Sandy!"
Joe
Don Sutton Basic Set - 3rd All Time
Looking for 88 Donruss PSA 9 or Higher
Looking for Sutton's PSA 7 or Higher
in response to the question earlier on this thread of what turned him from average in the 1950s to legendary in the 1960s...
I thought it was a well known fact that the umpires changed (opened up) the strike zone in the early 1960s. I thought this was a well accepted fact, but perhaps I have it wrong. Baseball history buffs often equate the change in strike zone to the dominance of pitching in the 1960s (at least the ones I know).
I would leave Drysdale and Ford off my list. Good pitchers throwing for big name teams, but surely NOT great.
Top 17 for me (in no order):
Cy young, Walter Johnson, Lefty Grove, C. Mathewson, Feller, Spahn, Gibson, Koufax, Marichal, Ryan, Palmer, Seaver, Carlton, P. Martinez, Clemens, Maddux, R. Johnson
IMO I must say Sutton makes as good announcer as a pitcher, but again I'm partial. For the most part a super list RG58.
Joe
Don Sutton Basic Set - 3rd All Time
Looking for 88 Donruss PSA 9 or Higher
Looking for Sutton's PSA 7 or Higher
Another reason why I think Maddux and Clememns will be the best I'll ever see in my lifetime.
Joe
Don Sutton Basic Set - 3rd All Time
Looking for 88 Donruss PSA 9 or Higher
Looking for Sutton's PSA 7 or Higher
60 - 3.00 era 126 K's in 105 IP
61 - 2.78 era 132 K's in 130 IP
62 - 3.53 era 98 K's in 82 IP
63 - 2.31 era 162 K's in 167 IP
64 - 2.93 era 99 K's in 95 IP
65 - 2.72 era 174 K's in 166 IP
66 - 1.96 era 157 K's in 152 IP
So when exactly did the Umpires change the strike zone and when did Koufax learn to control his curve?
Here are the home records:
60 - 5.27 era 71 K's in 70 IP
61 - 4.29 era137 K's in 126 IP
62 - 1.75 era 118 K's in 103 IP
63 - 1.38 era 144 K's in 144 IP
64 - 0.85 era 124 K's in 128 IP
65 - 1.38 era 208 K's in 170 IP
66 - 1.52 era 160 K's in 171 IP
Something happened between 61 and 62 that greatly affected Koufax but only at home. That was the year the Dodgers moved into Dodger stadium. He went from a park that was brutal on left-handed pitchers to a great pitchers park. He was really the great Sandy Koufax starting about 1960 and not 1962.
I am encountering NY fans who loved Seaver as a pitcher but SO HATE HIM as a broadcaster
it is affecting their overall impression of him.
1967and 1973 Topps baseball wantlists (any condition) welcome. Once had the #14 ATF 1967 set. Yet another collector like skylaneflyer, gimel1 who made it to the completion of 1967 only to need the money more than the company of 609 close friends.
Looking for oddball Norm Cash and Cleon Jones stuff, and 1956 team cards
Late 60's and early to mid 70's non-sports
I am looking to build my already growing Collection of the "GREATEST PITCHER IN MLB HISTORY" Nolan Ryan, DUH!!!
I have just started to collect Autographed memorabilia that I have gotten in person.
ebay id: Scuba_steve19
Texas5pt0@hotmail.com
May 4th 1962.
Steve
Yes, I'm a Dodger fan. But, I think that I agree with Bob Gibson, Juan Marichal, Greg Maddux, Nolan Ryan, Cy Young & Walter Johnson....along with Drysdale & Koufax.
* C. PASCUAL BASIC #3
* T. PEREZ BASIC #4 100%
* L. TIANT BASIC #1
* DRYSDALE BASIC #4 100%
* MAGIC MASTER #4/BASIC #3
* PALMEIRO MASTER/BASIC #1
* '65 DISNEYLAND #2
* '78 ELVIS PRESLEY #6
* '78 THREE'S COMPANY #1
WaltDisneyBoards
In 1913 his record was 36 wins and 7 losses with a nifty 1.14 ERA. He did give up an additional 12 unearned runs , which would have raised his ERA to a still nifty 1.46. What was most amazing about his season was that it was the only time in major league history that a pitcher led in least hits/ per 9 innings, least walks / per 9 innings and the most strikeouts / per 9 innings. Domination is the best description for that record.
I believe Roger (please don't use the preformance enhancer word) Clemons was the only other pitcher to land even in the top 3 of his league in each of those catogries in the same season.
Only my 2-1/2 cents, Sonny
<< <i>
Top 17 for me (in no order):
Cy young, Walter Johnson, Lefty Grove, C. Mathewson, Feller, Spahn, Gibson, Koufax, Marichal, Ryan, Palmer, Seaver, Carlton, P. Martinez, Clemens, Maddux, R. Johnson >>
This is a great list. To make it a top 20 list I would only add: Eddie Plank, Grover Alexander, and Carl Hubbell.
To answer the second part of the question, I've collected PSA 8 and 9's runs of Marichal, Gibson, Spahn, and Koufax.
I agree on Carlton's fine '72 season. Simply dominant on a very sad team. Take away his numbers and the '72 Phillies could be among the worst five teams in Baseball history.
2.Lefy Grove
3.Bob Gibson
4.Sandy Koufax
5.Christy Mathewson
Edited to add: He also missed 3 years to the war, awarded the bronze star and purple heart and a battlefield comission.
Oh, and one last thing... Maddux also was able to do all of this without head-hunting people who hit him well (a la Clemens)
All-time favorite athletes:
Steve Sax, Steve Garvey, Larry Bird, Jerry Rice, Joe Montana, Andre Agassi, Karch Kiraly, Wayne Gretzky, Ichiro Suzuki, Andres Galarraga, Greg Maddux.
"Make the world a better place... punch both A-Rods in the face (Alex Rodriguez and Andy Roddick)!"
Koufax had the most dominant stretch in history, and Walter Johnson might get the vote for best ever. He was a strikeout pitcher back when hitters did not strike out!
His argument was very convincing.
Sandy Koufax.