Greatest Pitcher ever??? Who do you Collect???

JMS318 · February 22, 2006 11:36PM

Who does everyone think is the greatest pitcher of all time? I've Narrowed it down to MY TOP LIST based on the numbers and also what era they pitched in.

Pre-War

CY YOUNG
WALTER JOHNSON
CRISTY MATHEWSON
GROVER ALEXANDER

50'S -N- 60'S

W. SPAHN
SNADY KAUFAX despite only playing 12 season.
Early Wynn

70'S -N- 80'S

DON SUTTON
STEVE CARLTON
NOLAN RYAN
TOM SEAVER

TODAY'S FOR SURE HOFer'S

GREG MADDUX
ROGER CLEMENS

These last two on the list I grew up watching them in their prime and in the home run era I think they put up some of the most impressive numbers with two completely different pitching styles. So post any great pics of cards you have and cast yourvote list too.

Also who do you think is collected the most here at PSA. My guess would be Nolan Ryan.

Joe

rbeaton · February 22, 2006 11:41PM

While I don't think he's the greatest ever, Jim Palmer (along with Seaver) was the dominate pitcher of the 70s. Link to my Palmer master registry set.

Robert

CardCoreCollector · February 22, 2006 11:48PM

Never thought Sutton was a great pitcher

Bob Gibson has to be on that list somewhere IMO

JMS318 · February 22, 2006 11:56PM

I agree Palmer was one of the best from the 70's with 7 seasons winning 20 games or more and a career era 2.86. Good choice but the reason i didn't put him in my top list b/c IMO he ended the 80's with ruff numbers. Still one of the best to pitch the game of baseball.

Really Nice Collection you have.

Thanks,
Joe

JMS318 · February 23, 2006 12:06AM

CardCoreCollector I think i would have to add him too after looking at the numbers really close. WOW 68 what a season.

CardCoreCollector do you have any neat gibson cards graded or raw?

Also if Tom glavin could have one more great season and Randy Johnson could strike out another 650 to put him 5000 lifetime k's you could maybe add them to the list.

Joe

CON40 · February 23, 2006 12:19AM

Good list... not sure about Wynn and Sutton there... but I would break out the '50s and '60s as separate eras as they certainly were as far as pitching/hitting balance.

1950s:
Robin Roberts
Warren Spahn
Billy Pierce

1960s:
Sandy Koufax
Bob Gibson
Denny McLain

1970s (a real bumper crop):
Steve Carlton
Tom Seaver
Jim Palmer
Nolan Ryan
Fergie Jenkins

1980s (a weak decade):
Dwight Gooden
Roger Clemens
Nolan Ryan
Dave Stieb

1990s:
Pedro Martinez
Greg Maddux
Roger Clemens
Tom Glavine
Mike Mussina
Randy Johnson

Since 2000:
Randy Johnson
Tim Hudson
Pedro Martinez
Johan Santana

Who are the best? The best pitcher I have ever seen is Pedro Martinez. He is an artist at location, changing speeds, style, ball movement, and toughness. I have an extensive collection of all his early cards (graded and raw). He's the only pitcher I have actively collected aside from Nolan Ryan. Other popular pitchers: Sandy Koufax always seems to be in high demand. Jim Palmer also seems to have a strong following. And so does Warren Spahn. You'd think Seaver would be very high on wantlists too, but there doesn't seem to be a lot of demand for his stuff, especially for a New York guy.

CardCoreCollector · February 23, 2006 12:34AM

JMS, unfortunetly i don't have anything of worth of Gibson, just know the type of pitcher he was

Con40, i'd have to add Jack Morris in your 80 list. I believe he was the winningest pitcher of the decade

P.S i agree with you on Pedro. Truely an artist on the mound

Dave

jimtb · February 23, 2006 12:58AM

Morris did have the most wins of the 1980's, won World chapionships with three different teams and is highly underrated in my opinion.

VMFA115 · February 23, 2006 1:51AM

VMFA115 · February 23, 2006 1:52AM

Personally if it was my team I would want Gibson…he would also be the last pitcher I would want my team to face. Not only good but consider by most, including the likes of Ryan, Koulfax, Drysdale, etc/, as the most intimidating pitcher ever, IMHO.
Dave C.

wick70 · February 23, 2006 1:59AM

I htink for the '60s, it should got to Juan Marichal.

pandrews · February 23, 2006 2:00AM

where does Whitey Ford fit in?

bishop · February 23, 2006 2:22AM

Gibson was not the best pitcher of all time, but was a darn good pitcher in the 60s, and in 1968 was on another level. He went only 22 - 9 that year, but had 13 shut outs and in 34 starts finished 28 games. He pitched 305 innings in which he allowed only 198 hits and walked only 62 while striking out 268. In one 90 inning stretch he allowed only 2 earned runs and finished the year with an ERA of 1.12

He could be hard on teammates as well as the opposition. Tim McCarver used to tell a story about going to the mound as a young catcher to calm Gibson down only to be told to get his ass back behind the plate because "the only thing you know about good pitching is that you can't hit it"

CON40 · February 23, 2006 2:45AM

Perry;

Ford was a star pitcher for sure, but I think if Whitey Ford pitched for anyone but the Yankees (and didn't have the benefit of that marvelous offense), he'd be on a historical par with Dean Chance, Jim Perry, Sam McDowell, Tommy John, and Jim Kaat... just a tad below the HOF standards.

I can see arguments from you guys that Morris should be on the '80s staff, and yes, I'd have to stick Marichal on that '60s staff too. My oversight.

1954 · February 23, 2006 3:51AM

John Rocker has to be there somewhere.

Actually Greg Maddux, Ryan, Ruth, Cy Young and Mathewson.

Shane

JMS318 · February 23, 2006 3:53AM

Con40 I can't believe you wouldn't add Sutton.

Look at his comparison to Nolan Ryan and Stve Carelton

If you take Don's 24 season, Steve's 24 seasons, and Ryan's 27 season and divide them by career numbers here is what an average season would look like for each.

N. Ryan
12 wins 11 loss 3.19 ERA 199 IP 147 hits 104 walks 212 so

S. Carlton
14 wins 10 losses 3.24 era 217 ip 195 hits 76 walks 172 so

No look at Suttons numbers and see the similarities.

14 wins 11 loses 3.26 ERA 220 IP 196 hits 56 walks 149 so

Looks like he's on par to me. Again you get this season average by taking their totals divided by their seasons played rounding up and down to get even numbers.

And I agree with adding Morris in the 80's but Juan Marichal even though the numbers are good and he did dominate the 60's IMO didn't have an impact like Kaufax did with his even shorter career.

Kaufax only started 314 games vs. Marichal's 457. Kaufax in that time K'd 2396 batters vs. 2303 fanned. Again just MO but if i had to face either one in their prime I'd be scared to face Kaufax and would just respect Marichal. 100% MHO

Joe

CON40 · February 23, 2006 4:22AM

Joe;

There's one intangible factor I look at with these pitchers: Would I want them on the mound to win Game 7 for me?

Carlton was a money pitcher and has to be there. Ryan tossed nearly fifty 0-1-2 hit games and could just dominate the opponent. Sutton was 'slow and steady' to me, a good pitcher but not one of the stars of his era. He was rarely seen as a dominant pitcher, even on his own team at times. I would lump him in with the second-tier HOFers of his era: Phil Niekro, Gaylord Perry, Jim Hunter.

tennesseebanker · February 23, 2006 4:25AM

How about adding Bob Feller to the list, I never saw him pitch but my dad always spoke highly of him and thats good enough for me .

WinPitcher · February 23, 2006 4:31AM

I am surprised that no one has mentioned Babe Ruth.

Against Walter Johnson he has a favorable record. You can look it up.

As for Sutton, I would take him in a heart beat over some of the names mentioned here for a 7th game.

Steve

1954 · February 23, 2006 4:55AM

Steve-
check three threads above yours.

We both thought of the same thing.

Shane

Tabe · February 23, 2006 5:00AM

<< CardCoreCollector I think i would have to add him too after looking at the numbers really close. WOW 68 what a season. >>

Here's a tidbit about that season for Gibson that will blow your mind:

He was never - not even once - knocked out of a game. He either completed every game or was lifted for a pinch-hitter. Not once pulled in the middle of an inning. How scary is that?

Tabe

Fuzz · February 23, 2006 5:01AM

In one of Bill James "Baseball Abstracts", he did an analysis to block major variables which I believe was a pitchers record in games where they scored only one run. No run support variation, no park effect, nothing but a pitcher having to throw a shut out to win. The answer jumps off the page as to the best under these circumstances. Sandy Koufax. By a lot.
Fuzz

JMS318 · February 23, 2006 5:32AM

Fuzz that’s what I hear.

Although I wasn’t even alive to see him pitch. All my great uncles and grand- parents said he was the best they ever seen and they hated the Dodgers and still do. Well hates such a strong word but you get the idea. As far as the best of my lifetime and maybe it's because I'm a Braves fan and watched him every year is Greg Maddux. I've never seen anyone play a chess match with the batters mind like him. Unlike Pedro Martinez he does not throw over 90. Only during the height of his career did hit over the 94 95 mark on a regular basis. He is all about hitting his target and at the perfect speed. Just a little faster or a little slower than the last pitch. and over his career during the power hitting age he only walks 45 on average a year and 15 home runs. The man never gives in. To me that is dominance.

Joe

jimtb · February 23, 2006 5:55AM

If game 7 is the yard stick: Jack Morris game 7 of the 1991 World Series: 10 innings of shutout ball- the greatest baseball game I have ever watched.

JMS318 · February 23, 2006 7:33AM

Yeah jimtb that was a great game. So i guess John Smoltz would have to go on the game 7 list too. Shame he had to lose. I will say thats the best pitcher dual I've seen in my lifetime.

Joe

jaxxr · February 23, 2006 10:19AM

I would pick Walter Johnson, righthander, and Lefty Grove, lefty of course, as probably the greatest pitchers of all time.

No one ever mentions Ed Walsh, the last 40 game winner, who also holds the ALL TIME lifetime ERA record. No one gave up less runs per game over their entire career than Walsh. He is certainly one of the very best ever, maybe we are too short in memory to recall greatness we cant see on TV, or even from films on ESPN. He might be the most overlooked great pitcher ever.

sflayank · February 23, 2006 10:31AM

pre war walter johnson far and above
cy young christy matthewson and babe ruth
40s is feller
50s to early 60s is whitey ford no ifs and or buts with warren spahn chasing him down
winning percentage is unreal combined with a lower era than even koufax
60s is koufax marichal gibson
70s is palmer( again like ford just win baby) seaver carlton
all you ryan fans forget it
i dont want a 283 game loser starting for me

divecchia · February 23, 2006 10:52AM

<< all you ryan fans forget it
i dont want a 283 game loser starting for me >>

As far as pitchers winning records go it doesn't just come down to how many runs you let up, because you can let up one or two, but if your team sucks and can't put together more than one or two runs you will lose most of the time. I believe that was Ryan's problem, the teams he played for were never that great. JMHO

Donato

bri2327 · February 23, 2006 12:18PM

<< where does Whitey Ford fit in? >>

Right near the very top of the list.

All Ford did was get intentionally matched up in the rotation against the best from every team year in and year out and all he did was go out and win, whether it was regular season or the world series. The guy had ice water in his veins, period.

JMS318 · February 23, 2006 12:40PM

Donato I agree that Ryan did play for some sucky teams and that he is one of the best ever but 283 lose wasn't his fault is just a weak argument. Look at maddux he for years had the worst run support in the majors and still managed to win the 1-0 Game. When you’re the best if your team can't score runs then you have to beat them yourself. And he did it with all these players juiced up. LOL that’s why I think he is the best pitcher I'll ever see in my lifetime. IMHO That’s why after I complete my 88D set He is next on my list for a player set.

Joe

dallasactuary · February 23, 2006 1:30PM

Overall and pre-war: Walter Johnson

1950's: Robin Roberts
1960's: Bob Gibson
1970's: Tom Seaver
1980's: Dave Stieb
1990's: Greg Maddux

But that list is largely dependent on the specifics of the calendar. If we shift 5 years, I'd pick:

1945-1955: Hal Newhouser
1956-1965: Whitey Ford
1966-1975: Tom Seaver
1976-1985: Steve Carlton
1986-1995: Roger Clemens
1996-2005: Pedro Martinez

And because the lists are for 10-year spans, the greatest 5-year span in history doesn't make it (Koufax).

A lot of very great pitchers ended their careers in the 80's, and a lot of very great pitchers started their careers in the 80's. It seems weird, but while Stieb may be the 20th best pitcher who pitched at some point in the 80's, he seems to be the best if you count every year. Morris is close, but two of his best seasons were 1979 and 1991, and he was god-awful in 1989.

I'm sure if you shifted the frame a few years another direction you could add a few more names. For 1972-1981, Nolan Ryan almost squeezes in there, but Seaver was just too good. You'd have to shift into another dimension of time and space to get Sutton in there, though.

1967topps · February 23, 2006 2:54PM

Marichal best hitting pitcher of the 60's. Or was that best at hitting? (Batters, with his bat, etc)
Gooden best pitcher to blow it all and be just a sad memory.

More seriously, amazing to look at early years of Koufax career
11-11, 4.47, 131K

8-6, 4.06, 173 K

8-13, 3.91, 197K

Question for those following baseball in early 60s, what suddenly happened that Koufax was so
awesome after that up till his retirement?

jackstraw · February 23, 2006 9:45PM

If (I know thats a big if) Dwight Gooden could have been more focused on pitching than off field distractions, we would not be having this conversation.
I will stay in my lifetime here:
Nolan Ryan is by far the best power pitcher of all time. He holds the record for Strikeouts and No Hitters. How can you argue that? He was throwing 100 mph in the 8th inning. How many times was he pulled for a pinch hitter in the 7th or 8th inning because they were losing 1 nothing?He palyed for the Astros for 9 seasons and there best hitter was ??? Terry Puhl? I believe it was Ivan Rodriguez that said " the reason he lost so many games is that they just got bored watching him play catch with the catcher" .

Pedro Martinez : What Keith said.
Greg Maddux: Location location location
Rogar Clemens: Really never did anything for me but he would get me to watch and will go down as one of the greatest ever.

These are probably the only 5 pitchers in my lifetime that I would actually want to watch pitch . If Ryan , Gooden , Clemens , Maddux or Pedro were/are on the mound I will/would usually watch regardless the team they are playing.
Others that I like to watch pitch but usually only in big games not so much middle of the season get me to watch are:
Glavine,Zito, Hudson, Mariano Rivera(even if its 1 or 2 innings he is a master and probably will go down as the greatest reliver ever), Dave Stewert was also a guy I loved to watch pitch especially for the A's and Blue Jays from the late 80's early 90's. For some reason I like Bronson Arroyo? It just seems like every pitch is a strugle and every out could be his last but for some reason he gets me to watch? I guess its the under dog thing when it comes to him and he is local so I get to see him alot?

RayBShotz · February 23, 2006 10:57PM

Dave C - Right on about Gibson.
Bishop great anecdote on Gibson/McCarver.

I also read that Gibson would never fraternize with his All Star team mates during those outings, often snarling in their direction at approaches from them, because he felt that if he gave an inch of good will or comradery, he would lose the edge he had when he faced these guys during the regular season.

He was also known to be a viciously competitive poker player in the locker room.
My two cents.
RayB

smallstocks · February 23, 2006 11:25PM

In my lifetime, Tom Seaver was the greatest pitcher I have ever seen.

smallstocks · February 23, 2006 11:32PM

Regarding Koufax:

1956 wasn't much different than 1955 for Koufax. He saw little work, pitching only 58.2 innings, walking 29 and striking out 30; he had a 4.91 ERA. Rarely was he allowed to work out of a jam. As soon as he threw a couple of balls in a row, Alston would have somebody start warming up in the bullpen.

Over the next three seasons (beginning in 1958), Koufax was in and out of the Dodger starting rotation due to injuries. He started the 1958 season strong by going 7–3 through July, but ended up spraining his ankle in a collision at first base. He finished the season with an 11–11 record, leading the league in wild pitches. In June 1959, Koufax struck out 16 Philadelphia Phillies to set the record for a night game. Two months later, he broke that record in Los Angeles, against the Giants, tying Bob Feller's major league record with 18 strikeouts.

In early 1960 Koufax asked Dodgers GM Buzzie Bavasi to trade him because he wasn't getting enough playing time. By the end of 1960, Koufax was ready to quit baseball and devote himself to his electronics business. After the last game of the season, he tossed his gloves and spikes into the trash. Nobe Kawano, the clubhouse supervisor, retrieved the equipment to return to Koufax the following year (or to somebody else if Koufax did not return to play).

Koufax showed back up for the 1961 season in better condition than he had in previous years. Over the winter, he decided to start working out and running more. Koufax also decided to find out just how good he could be. During a spring training trip to Orlando, Dodgers catcher Norm Sherry told Koufax the same thing that many others had in the past: stop throwing the ball so hard. In the first inning of the game in Orlando, Koufax walked the bases loaded on 12 straight pitches. Again, Sherry told him to take something off the ball to get better control. Koufax finally listened and struck out the side. By the time he came out of the game after seven innings, Koufax had struck out eight batters, walked five and given up no hits.

MorrellMan · February 23, 2006 11:41PM

Tough question - statistically dominant pitchers usually pitched for statistically dominant teams. A mere fastball isn't enough, any good hitter can time a fastball, regardless of it's speed.
The 20's, 40's & 60's produced a squadron of exceptional pitchers, but for my money, sheer mechanics and dominance between pitcher and batter, I'd go with Walter Johnson, Bob Feller and Sandy Koufax. They all possessed mighty fastballs with wicked curves and, most importantly, that something extra on their fastball that rendered it un-timeable.

pebblyjack · February 24, 2006 1:44AM

To answer the question about why Koufax became so dominant in the '60s after scuffling along for the last half of the '50s: Dodger Stadium. Prior to moving to Dodger Stadium, Koufax' lowest ERA (discounting his 3.02 in 12 games in 1955) was the 3.52 he posted in the LA Coliseum 1961. After moving to Dodger Stadium, Koufax posted consecutive ERAs of 2.54, 1.88, 1.74, 2.04, and 1.73, leading the NL for 5 straight years.

Here are Koufax' Home/Road ERA splits during those years:

Home Road
1962 1.75 2.93

1963 1.38 2.31

1964 0.85 2.93

1965 1.38 2.72

1966 1.52 1.96

He was a creature of his park: while very good on the road, he was ungodly at home. Koufax was uniquely situated to take advantage of Dodger Stadium, which has since it opened been one of the most difficult parks in which to hit.

Thanks

Randy

WinPitcher · February 24, 2006 4:03AM

As for Koufax.............he began to get his curve ball over for strikes.

also.............the early yrs mentioned, he was basically just out of HS.

but mainly it was control. his control got better and with his speed he blossomed.

As for Sutton...........I remm a game in 82 it was the last day of the season. Palmer vs Sutton. for the pennant. Sutton out dueled Palmer.

Was Sutton the greatest of his era? no, but is he a pitcher that many a manger would want in a crucial game? YES.

Steve

rbdjr1 · February 24, 2006 10:59AM

In my Lifetime?

1. Roger Clemens

rbd

edit: 22 seasons: 341 wins 172 losses (...thats an average of over 15 wins per season for 22 seasons! he's just super-human!)

collect? ...well, my personal (not all-time, but personal!) favorates were Herb Score and Bob Lemon, and I'll throw-in "Sudden Sam" McDowell (just because I liked to watch him pitch!!!)

IndianaJones · February 26, 2006 5:11AM

GOOD THREAD! I am pleased that someone mentioned Big Ed Walsh. Some of his stats are simply phenominal. He pitched for a weak-hitting team, to say the least (Ed pitched at the time the White Sox were given the nickname "Hitless Wonders"). Ty Cobb spoke very highly of Ed in his biography (the one that was "told to Al Stump"). Ed's 40-win season came in 1908; his EXTREMELY BEAUTIFUL T-206 card appeared first in 1909. I can imagine that his card was one of the real treasured prizes among kids who collected those at the time. Most of the others mentioned above were superb. I well-recall Sandy Koufax as being the toughest to beat, and thus defeating him was considered among his peers as being a career highlight. But I'll throw my 2 cents in to say that Lefty Grove was the best pitcher ever. He pitched at a time that was considered one of the heaviest hitter eras of all-time. During his years with the A's, he used one pitch only--his fast ball. Every opposing batter knew what was coming, but Lefty simply just bore down and got them out. If you have a mind to it, check out the times Lefty won the ERA title, and then how much the second best was behind him. Granted, Lefty pitched for one of the greatest hitting team's of all time. That's what made A LOT of Hall-of-Famer's careers shine. Later, when he first went to Boston, he was washed up with a sore arm. He rested and reinvented himself, developing a great curve to go with pin-point accuracy. The fastball was pretty much gone. It was one of the greatest sustained comebacks in baseball history. Walter Johnson by and large did not pitch for a good team, though he did pitch in a "pitcher's era." Big deal--Walter was terrific. Consider all the 1-0 gems he twirled. Lastly, one of my special one-year favorites was Dean Chance in 1964. Pitching for the mediocre-hitting Angels, that guy pitched SIX 1-0 gems, with one going 7 innings as I recall. His record for the year was 20-9, with an ERA of 1.60. As far as what I collect, I can't really afford anything anymore. Oh well. Take care. -Indiana Jones

mojorob · February 26, 2006 7:02AM

Pedro is the best pitcher I have ever seen pitch.
Bob Gibson would be a close second.

1954 · February 27, 2006 12:10AM

<< A mere fastball isn't enough, any good hitter can time a fastball, regardless of it's speed. >>

Mark- That is true if all the pitcher has is a fastball, however if the pitcher has a good change up( Maddux) or a slider (Pedro) he can make a hitter look really stupid.

Shane

fiveniner · February 27, 2006 12:19AM

Pre War

Walter Johnson,Lefty Grove,Grover Alexander,Rube Wadell

Post War,45 to 70,Bob Feller,Bob Gibson,Sandy Koufax,

70 to 80 Steve Carlton,Tom Seaver,Nolan Ryan.

Modern Day,Roger Clemens.

Honorable mention,Satchel Paige.

Browntoni · February 27, 2006 12:34AM

I am surprised how many Sutton and Palmer fans.....Steve Carlton was clearly the best pitcher in his era

dallasactuary · February 27, 2006 1:28AM

<< I am surprised how many Sutton and Palmer fans.....Steve Carlton was clearly the best pitcher in his era >>

I guess that depends on what you mean. Clearly, Sutton was not nearly as good as the other two, but between Carlton and Palmer the question of who was better is certainly an open one. Carlton had the better single seasons, but Palmer was much more consistent. For their careers, Carlton's park-adjusted ERA was 15% better than average, Palmer's was 25%. I'd pick Palmer as the better pitcher, but certainly respect Carlton as another choice.

But, to say that either one of them was the best pitcher of his era I think is clearly wrong. Tom Seaver had individual seasons every bit as good as Carlton's and the consistency of Palmer - and a career park-adjusted ERA 27% better than average. Seaver was the best pitcher of that era, and arguably the greatest pitcher of all time.

CardCoreCollector · February 27, 2006 1:33AM

Steve Carlton was clearly the best pitcher in his era

Sorry to disagree but i think Seaver is right there with Carlton

JMS318 · February 27, 2006 4:06AM

Everyone has made good cases for their favorite Pitcher. I've come to the conclusion it would be hard to decide the best ever, but here is another attempt for me to state about how good Greg Maddux is.

I'll compair these stats to the most talked about Caralton, Palmer, Ryan, Seaver, Clemens and Pedro Martinez

Player Win PCT. / Life time opp BA./ k to BB / BB per 9IP/ K per 9IP/ hits per 9 IP / Consecutive 15+ WIN SEASONs/ Season with 15 + Wins

Ryan .526 .204 1.99 4.67 9.55 6.56 3 8

Seaver .603 .226 2.42 2.62 6.85 7.47 9 14

Maddux .627 .247 2.86 1.85 6.23 8.34 17 17

Clemens .665 .229 2.85 2.91 8.61 7.65 7 12

Palmer .638 .230 1.64 2.99 5.04 7.63 5 13

Carlton .574 .240 2.09 3.16 7.13 8.06 7 12

P.Martinez .701 .208 4.17 2.37 10.25 6.82 4 7

Now as of right now Martinez looks the best but he is also at the peak of his career. If he stays in the game like the rest of the guys I think those numbers will go down. Also I'm going to look up Koufax's numbers and post them later. Also I'm not going to include the pre war era b/c some stats were not compiled.

If you look at these numbers Maddux is right their with the rest. Just thought everyone would like to know these stats.

ENJOY!!!!!!!

Joe

dallasactuary · February 27, 2006 5:12AM

Over the course of their careers, good pitchers will allow fewer runs than average pitchers, and great pitchers will allow a lot fewer runs than average pitchers.

Walter Johnson allowed 657 runs fewer - on a park-adjusted basis - than the average pitcher of his time. Lefty Grove was also above 600, Roger Clemens is at 700, and Cy Young was at an amazing 809. Other (20th century) pitchers above the 400 mark include Randy Johnson, Maddux, Seaver, Pedro, and Alexander. For the most part, any pitcher over 200 is in the HOF.

I would say that any pitcher named above is potentially the greatest pitcher ever - at least a reasonable argument could be made; any pitcher not named above would be a real stretch.

And just to keep everyone aware of the greatest baseball injustice to date, the only pitcher with a runs allowed difference greater than 300 - and one of very few over 200 - who is not in the HOF? Bert Blyleven.

jradke4 · February 27, 2006 5:40AM

Spahn

jaxxr · February 27, 2006 8:54AM

Dallas,

Good points made and well taken, however why not include Ed Walsh ?

Earned runs allowed are probably the most statistically objective factor a pitcher can be measured by. Walsh has the best ERA lifetime of any pitcher in the HOF, thus no pitcher was harder to get runs scored upon. Is not that the most important thing you want from a pitcher ? Not his batting ave. against, not his walks to Ks ratio, not how many 1-0 games he won or lost, but truly the thing a manager wants his pitcher to do is give up the least amount of runs, hopefully at least one less than the other team's pitcher.

Walsh gave up less earned runs per game than his peers, than those before him, than those who followed him, or anyone over a career in the history of MLB. Perhaps at least an honable mention as the greatest pitcher would be in order.

Of course win percentage is important, doesn't Whitey Ford have the all-time record ????

Greatest Pitcher ever??? Who do you Collect???

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