If insurance is "optional" it seems pretty clear it's on buyer to pay if he wants that protection. I buy and sell so can see both sides of the issue but to me it's that simple.
<< <i>Buying a product from a seller is not a gamble, it is a contractual agreement you have entered into. The 1st part of that agreement is that the buyer pays for the item once they have agreed to buy it. The second part is the seller agrees to deliver it once they have gotten paid. If the item does not arrive and the seller has no proof of sending it, then it is the sellers responsibilty to make the buyer whole. >>
So, the seller pays for delivery confirmation and the package doesn't arrive. BUyer proves they mailed the package. Sounds like a problem between the buyer and the USPS. I guess that gets us back to the original question.
Steve - I'm sure your replies were partly sarcastic, but I have a feeling if some charged you $6 to ship one card and included insurance, you would make a post about ripoff S&H charges.
Wrong on both accounts nd
I was not being sarcastic, simply trying to answer the analogy that you chose to use.
I have paid more then 6.00 on more then one occasion to ship a single card and never have bltched here about it. I knew about it goin in and placed my bid accordingly. perhaps u have me confused with someone else.
I had an unusual situation. A very ruputable Ebayer bought a card and a couple of weeks later asked where it was. I provided the tracking number and showed that it had been delivered. I haven't heard back from the buyer (not that I absolutely need to) but what should be learned from this? I want the buyer to be satisfied and I am not thinking refund. There was no insurance but obviously delivery confirmation was useful. What can I do to aid this situation?
Brent
Collecting: Bo Jackson Basic(#1) and Master(#1) Bob Feller Basic(#4) Sam McDowell Basic(#1) 2004 Cracker Jack Master
<< <i>So, the seller pays for delivery confirmation and the package doesn't arrive. BUyer proves they mailed the package. Sounds like a problem between the buyer and the USPS. I guess that gets us back to the original question. >>
Jayhawk The buyer has no responsibility in the delivering of the item from a legal stand point wether or not the buyer recieved confirmation of the mailing and has proof of it. The owness is on the seller to provide proof of delivery. That is exactly why any of the big online sellers all use signature confirmation to avoid those problems in small claims court or against credit card charge backs. Once a buyer has paid for an item the seller is legally responsible to deliver it, if a buyer says he didn't deliver the item as promised and the seller has no proof of delivery the seller is legally responsible to either refund or replace the item. Any credit card company will issue a charge back to the seller and credit the buyer in this instance, it happens all the time. That is why pay pal and eBay insist on seeing delvery confirmation before issuing a decision on a claim.
jayhawk no, delivery confirmation only relieves the seller if the package arrives and it is then posted as delivered on the USPS site. Unless USPS scans the package upon delivery and then updates it's info online the seller is legally on the hook. Credit Card Companies will grant the buyer a credit and charge back the seller otherwise.
Great topic. I guess the real answer is in your personality. 1) As a seller anything over $75 I insure for the buyer. Under $75 if lost I would refund the buyers money. That's just me. I do ship conf. requested in the $40-60 range, just as a safe guard. 2) As a buyer, even if I did not buy insurance for a product under $50 I would hope the seller would refund the whole amount. But I wouldnt press the point too hard. Any thing over $50 I buy insurance.
All in all UPS, Fed-ex and USPS do a pretty good job in getting package to the right place and safely. I know we all have our stories but I imagine Like e-bay feeback all 3 are in the 99.5% range of good service.
W.C.Fields "I spent 50% of my money on alcohol, women, and gambling. The other half I wasted.
Steve - You get a card late, the dealer tries to work it out, and then you think the seller should eat the entire cost of the deal if the USPS screws up. I disagree with that and the assumptions behind it - ie ebay sellers = Walmart. I really didn't care to make a federal issue out of it, but you mocked some of my points, so I returned the fair play.
Your quote to me:
I have paid more then 6.00 on more then one occasion to ship a single card and never have bltched here about it. I knew about it goin in and placed my bid accordingly. perhaps u have me confused with someone else.
Your actual post about the topic:
I paid milehigh 6.00 last nite for shipping on a card i won for 28.00...........that was the highest I ever paid.....before that it was 4.95 i didnt realise shipping was 6.00 until after the auction I dont think ill be buying from them anytime soon
No I didn't have you confused with someone else. I know this board is more pro-buyer than pro-seller, which is fine. But I think that it is useful on this board to have both sides of the issue, not just one big lovefest. I'll leave it at that.
First off It was a box. Secondly I suggest you go back and read the original post. Lastly I did not MOCK any of your posts. You asked if I was being sarcastic and I said NO. And at the time I wasn't.
So let me get this straight a post that I made over 16 months ago stayed in your mind? And for what it is worth I said I paid 6.00 On more then one occasion. That happened to be the first. And if that was the best that you could find regarding me bltching about shipping. (I am sure you looked too) then you have a problem. I guess I could have said "I now know going in and bid accordingly:
Mocked you?
And yes, I feel that the dealer should eat the entire cost if an item I pay for does not arrive regardless who is at fault. Him, his shipper or nature.
You can have your opinion and I can have mine.
If you feel that a reply to your post is a mock then I suggest you add a lil skin.
And please don't throw the Win is anti dealer BS at me, I owned and operated a hobby shop for almost 10 yrs. So I am well aware of customer service.
IMHO Ebay is different from HSN and Walmart. Most of the sellers on ebay are part-timers (especially in our hobby) looking to make a few bucks. They are the sales manager, shipping clerk, and customer service all rolled into one. That is why prices cheaper, they don't have the overhead. You can buy a box of 2005 Topps Chrome Football at Walmart.com for $72 plus tax and S&H, or you can pay $55 on ebay from some guy living in his parent's basement.
You cannot expect the same level of service from Walmart and every ebay seller. In other words, you can't expect something for nothing. To me the responsibility of a seller is to provide an accurate description, send an invoice, mail the item by the S&H method paid for by the buyer, and let the buyer know when it goes out.
I don't think it is the seller's job to manage the USPS.
I agree, however that was not my question. my point is a simple one. I pay for an item i expect the item or my money back. how that can be twisted into the level of service one can expect from different venues is beyond me. I paid the seller the amount of shipping he requested.
Steve
Edited to add: I could have mocked almost everyone of your posts but chose not to. For instance your claim that it costs 3.35 to insure a 100.00 card to the above idiotic statements regarding Walmart.com and ebay sellers and just about everything else you have said in between.
With well over 8,500 ebay transactions (as both buyer and seller), I rarely use "delivery confirmation" any more! I think it is a "waste of money" (i.e.,...let's see: 8,500 delivery confirmations @ 50 cents a wrap? ...that would be: $4,250.00! Ouch!). The USPS lost 2 or3 (but I think it was only two? ) (out of over 8,500 transactions, wow!), of which two were insured (and, if i remember correctly, I got money back on those, after quite a while, from USPS, as I was seller!).
My point here? The USPS, in my opinion, does a super job (i.e., 8,500 shipments vs. about 3 losses!). I'm not going to "throw away" thousands of extra dollars to the USPS for a ton of unecessary "delivery confirmations".
As far as refunding a customer for an undelivered or a damaged item, why not? Its sure cheaper to refund a few bucks "once in a blue moon", rather than throwing thousands of dollars of your hard earned money "down the drain", paying for those unnecessary USPS delivery confirmations, just so satisfy Paypal? Thats nutz!
As far as my customers refusing insurance? Who cares? I refuse it most of the time also!
edit: Steve, as far as that Seller offering u $20 back on a $40 item? That was pretty tacky of him! Give the buyer a full refund for Gods sake! But if he politely told you that insurance was "optional" and sellers are not responsible for lost or damaged uninsured items, well he is within his rights. But I do believe most sellers would just go ahead and refund the whole forty bucks to the buyer! ...Just my "3-cents"!
Just to set the record straight it did not occur to me when I first posted this thread but, like I said it was a best offer deal and my offer was 40.00 delivered. When i went to pay I paid 33.50 plus 6.50 in shipping. There was no slot for insurance. (while on the original page there was and it said "optional" When you make a best ofer ebay allows for a message to be sent and, it was in that message that I said
40.00 delivered?
and he replied: yes, and thanks for the reasonable offer.
and to just further clarify, the seller, did not insure nor did he use del conf.
All emails bewteen he and myself were polite and professional.
With me, I look at each case individually. Here are 3 recent events regarding missing cards or payments.
a) – I sold two high priced cards to a collector ($325 and $450). The collector emailed me saying only one card came in the box. He had never bought from me before, but based on his feedback I believed him. He was a fairly consistent buyer of high end cards, and had no negatives, He did purchase insurance, but since the box did arrive with one card, I felt I had no real recourse with the Post Office. So without hesitation I said I would refund his money for the missing card. I only ask that he examine the box for tampering and I gave him a very detailed step – by – step on how I packaged the box. Sure enough, he emailed me back and said the second card was behind the first card in the team bag (slabs kind of stuck together).
b) – I sold a card ($61.00) to a board member here and after a month he notified me it hadn’t arrived. I offered to replace the card or give him the equal moment of purchase with other cards. He declined saying it was his fault that he didn’t purchase insurance. About a week later I get another from him saying card arrived and envelope was post marked with the date of which I said I shipped the card. 5-6 weeks it took for the card to reach him, but it did.
c) – Once again, I sold a card ($25) to a guy on ebay and after a few weeks I emailed him asking about payment, since I hadn’t received it. NO RESPONSE. 3 weeks go by and again I email him inquiring about payment, still NO RESPONSE. 4 weeks go by and I file a “non paying bidder” with ebay. Within the hour I hear from him saying he sent a check on January 30th, which I have yet to receive. I told him I haven’t received it, but it was possible I made a mistake and if he could scan a copy of the cancelled check, I would mail his card off immediately. He said it was too big of a hassle and is now saying he’s going to give me a negative. Personally, I know I can log onto the Wells Fargo Bank site and have a copy of any cashed check printed out within seconds, so I don’t know what he means by hassle. I guess I could just mail out the card and eat the $25, but I won’t, so here’s a negative facing me over a $25 card.
Like I said it all depends on the situation with me. I was willingly ready to cough up $325 and $61, but am holding fast over the $25 issue
I can’t tell you how lucky we are with regards to the honesty of the VAST MAJORITY OF COLLECTORS AND DEALERS out there. Ever try dealing with people who are involved with other types of collectibles on ebay? It can be a total nightmare!!!
Treetop, That guy had to be jerkin yer chain. As a bank employee myself I know how little trouble it is for someone to get a copy of a check. He should have gotten a photocopy of it in his last statement or he could go to any local branch and ask for a copy or like you said copy it online if he has access. Sometimes the principal of the thing, and your pride, when you know you are right about something keeps you from giving obnoxious thieves thier money back. You did the right thing even though it was only fro 25 $
<< <i> But if he politely told you that insurance was "optional" and sellers are not responsible for lost or damaged uninsured items, well he is within his rights. >>
As has been mentioned several times in this post already, you are mistaken on this post. Disclaimers of the sort you're describe are simply not enforceable.
Jayhawke - no, the amount does not matter. If I am the seller of an item that has hindreds involved it will be sent insured, I will not allow the buyer to have that option. He either will pay for it withing the amount I request for shipping or I'll eat it. If I am the buyer of such an item (hi amount) and I have doubts if insurance / del confirmation is included I would certaintly ask before I consumated the deal by sending payment. In the particular case i went through it was for 40.00 I paid via paypal with my amex card. I suffiecently protected myself. The seller did noy as he did not buy del.confirmation. The use of such disclaimers as "not responcible for lost or damaged items " that some sellers use is crapola IMO.
A buyer sends payment. The seller sends the item .
Comments
<< <i>Buying a product from a seller is not a gamble, it is a contractual agreement you have entered into. The 1st part of that agreement is that the buyer pays for the item once they have agreed to buy it. The second part is the seller agrees to deliver it once they have gotten paid. If the item does not arrive and the seller has no proof of sending it, then it is the sellers responsibilty to make the buyer whole. >>
So, the seller pays for delivery confirmation and the package doesn't arrive. BUyer proves they mailed the package. Sounds like a problem between the buyer and the USPS. I guess that gets us back to the original question.
Wrong on both accounts nd
I was not being sarcastic, simply trying to answer the analogy that you chose to use.
I have paid more then 6.00 on more then one occasion to ship a single card and never have bltched here about it. I knew about it goin in and placed my bid accordingly. perhaps u have me confused with someone else.
Steve
Brent
Bo Jackson Basic(#1) and Master(#1)
Bob Feller Basic(#4)
Sam McDowell Basic(#1)
2004 Cracker Jack Master
My Ebay Store
<< <i>So, the seller pays for delivery confirmation and the package doesn't arrive. BUyer proves they mailed the package. Sounds like a problem between the buyer and the USPS. I guess that gets us back to the original question. >>
Jayhawk
The buyer has no responsibility in the delivering of the item from a legal stand point wether or not the buyer recieved confirmation of the mailing and has proof of it. The owness is on the seller to provide proof of delivery. That is exactly why any of the big online sellers all use signature confirmation to avoid those problems in small claims court or against credit card charge backs. Once a buyer has paid for an item the seller is legally responsible to deliver it, if a buyer says he didn't deliver the item as promised and the seller has no proof of delivery the seller is legally responsible to either refund or replace the item. Any credit card company will issue a charge back to the seller and credit the buyer in this instance, it happens all the time. That is why pay pal and eBay insist on seeing delvery confirmation before issuing a decision on a claim.
So delivery confirmation relieves the seller even if the package never arrives? Is that what you are saying?
I paid milehigh 6.00 last nite for shipping on a card i won for 28.00...........that was the highest I ever paid.....before that it was 4.95
i didnt realise shipping was 6.00 until after the auction
I dont think ill be buying from them anytime soon
-------------
Now if you want to continue being an arsehole about it Ill play.
where did I say I was ripped off? i simply was stating what i paid.
And fwiw Im not sure it included insurance. possibly a self insured policy.
But seeing how you have all the smart a$$ answers I am sure you will try and see.
Steve
maybe you can come up with some more idiotic analogies.
1) As a seller anything over $75 I insure for the buyer. Under $75 if lost I would refund the buyers money. That's just me. I do ship conf. requested in the $40-60 range, just as a safe guard.
2) As a buyer, even if I did not buy insurance for a product under $50 I would hope the seller would refund the whole amount. But I wouldnt press the point too hard. Any thing over $50 I buy insurance.
All in all UPS, Fed-ex and USPS do a pretty good job in getting package to the right place and safely. I know we all have our stories but I imagine Like e-bay feeback all 3 are in the 99.5% range of good service.
"I spent 50% of my money on alcohol, women, and gambling. The other half I wasted.
Your quote to me:
I have paid more then 6.00 on more then one occasion to ship a single card and never have bltched here about it. I knew about it goin in and placed my bid accordingly. perhaps u have me confused with someone else.
Your actual post about the topic:
I paid milehigh 6.00 last nite for shipping on a card i won for 28.00...........that was the highest I ever paid.....before that it was 4.95
i didnt realise shipping was 6.00 until after the auction
I dont think ill be buying from them anytime soon
No I didn't have you confused with someone else. I know this board is more pro-buyer than pro-seller, which is fine. But I think that it is useful on this board to have both sides of the issue, not just one big lovefest. I'll leave it at that.
First off It was a box. Secondly I suggest you go back and read the original post. Lastly I did not MOCK any of your posts. You asked if I was being sarcastic and I said NO. And at the time I wasn't.
So let me get this straight a post that I made over 16 months ago stayed in your mind? And for what it is worth I said I paid 6.00 On more then one occasion. That happened to be the first. And if that was the best that you could find regarding me bltching about shipping. (I am sure you looked too) then you have a problem. I guess I could have said "I now know going in and bid accordingly:
Mocked you?
And yes, I feel that the dealer should eat the entire cost if an item I pay for does not arrive regardless who is at fault. Him, his shipper or nature.
You can have your opinion and I can have mine.
If you feel that a reply to your post is a mock then I suggest you add a lil skin.
And please don't throw the Win is anti dealer BS at me, I owned and operated a hobby shop for almost 10 yrs. So I am well aware of customer service.
Steve
You said:
Steve brings up a good debate point.
IMHO Ebay is different from HSN and Walmart. Most of the sellers on ebay are part-timers (especially in our hobby) looking to make a few bucks. They are the sales manager, shipping clerk, and customer service all rolled into one. That is why prices cheaper, they don't have the overhead. You can buy a box of 2005 Topps Chrome Football at Walmart.com for $72 plus tax and S&H, or you can pay $55 on ebay from some guy living in his parent's basement.
You cannot expect the same level of service from Walmart and every ebay seller. In other words, you can't expect something for nothing. To me the responsibility of a seller is to provide an accurate description, send an invoice, mail the item by the S&H method paid for by the buyer, and let the buyer know when it goes out.
I don't think it is the seller's job to manage the USPS.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I SAID:
I agree, however that was not my question. my point is a simple one. I pay for an item i expect the item or my money back. how that can be twisted into the level of service one can expect from different venues is beyond me. I paid the seller the amount of shipping he requested.
Steve
Edited to add: I could have mocked almost everyone of your posts but chose not to. For instance your claim that it costs 3.35 to insure a 100.00 card to the above idiotic statements regarding Walmart.com and ebay sellers and just about everything else you have said in between.
My point here? The USPS, in my opinion, does a super job (i.e., 8,500 shipments vs. about 3 losses!). I'm not going to "throw away" thousands of extra dollars to the USPS for a ton of unecessary "delivery confirmations".
As far as refunding a customer for an undelivered or a damaged item, why not? Its sure cheaper to refund a few bucks "once in a blue moon", rather than throwing thousands of dollars of your hard earned money "down the drain", paying for those unnecessary USPS delivery confirmations, just so satisfy Paypal? Thats nutz!
As far as my customers refusing insurance? Who cares? I refuse it most of the time also!
edit: Steve, as far as that Seller offering u $20 back on a $40 item? That was pretty tacky of him! Give the buyer a full refund for Gods sake! But if he politely told you that insurance was "optional" and sellers are not responsible for lost or damaged uninsured items, well he is within his rights. But I do believe most sellers would just go ahead and refund the whole forty bucks to the buyer! ...Just my "3-cents"!
rbd
Quicksilver Messenger Service - Smokestack Lightning (Live) 1968
Quicksilver Messenger Service - The Hat (Live) 1971
40.00 delivered?
and he replied: yes, and thanks for the reasonable offer.
and to just further clarify, the seller, did not insure nor did he use del conf.
All emails bewteen he and myself were polite and professional.
Steve
edited to add: Thanks to all those that replied.
With me, I look at each case individually. Here are 3 recent events regarding missing cards or payments.
a) – I sold two high priced cards to a collector ($325 and $450). The collector emailed me saying only one card came in the box. He had never bought from me before, but based on his feedback I believed him. He was a fairly consistent buyer of high end cards, and had no negatives, He did purchase insurance, but since the box did arrive with one card, I felt I had no real recourse with the Post Office. So without hesitation I said I would refund his money for the missing card. I only ask that he examine the box for tampering and I gave him a very detailed step – by – step on how I packaged the box. Sure enough, he emailed me back and said the second card was behind the first card in the team bag (slabs kind of stuck together).
b) – I sold a card ($61.00) to a board member here and after a month he notified me it hadn’t arrived. I offered to replace the card or give him the equal moment of purchase with other cards. He declined saying it was his fault that he didn’t purchase insurance. About a week later I get another from him saying card arrived and envelope was post marked with the date of which I said I shipped the card. 5-6 weeks it took for the card to reach him, but it did.
c) – Once again, I sold a card ($25) to a guy on ebay and after a few weeks I emailed him asking about payment, since I hadn’t received it. NO RESPONSE. 3 weeks go by and again I email him inquiring about payment, still NO RESPONSE. 4 weeks go by and I file a “non paying bidder” with ebay. Within the hour I hear from him saying he sent a check on January 30th, which I have yet to receive. I told him I haven’t received it, but it was possible I made a mistake and if he could scan a copy of the cancelled check, I would mail his card off immediately. He said it was too big of a hassle and is now saying he’s going to give me a negative. Personally, I know I can log onto the Wells Fargo Bank site and have a copy of any cashed check printed out within seconds, so I don’t know what he means by hassle. I guess I could just mail out the card and eat the $25, but I won’t, so here’s a negative facing me over a $25 card.
Like I said it all depends on the situation with me. I was willingly ready to cough up $325 and $61, but am holding fast over the $25 issue
I can’t tell you how lucky we are with regards to the honesty of the VAST MAJORITY OF COLLECTORS AND DEALERS out there. Ever try dealing with people who are involved with other types of collectibles on ebay? It can be a total nightmare!!!
"If I ever decided to do a book, I've already got the title-The Bases Were Loaded and So Was I"-Jim Fregosi
<< <i> But if he politely told you that insurance was "optional" and sellers are not responsible for lost or damaged uninsured items, well he is within his rights. >>
As has been mentioned several times in this post already, you are mistaken on this post. Disclaimers of the sort you're describe are simply not enforceable.
Tabe
Jayhawke - no, the amount does not matter. If I am the seller of an item that has hindreds involved it will be sent insured, I will not allow the buyer to have that option. He either will pay for it withing the amount I request for shipping or I'll eat it. If I am the buyer of such an item (hi amount) and I have doubts if insurance / del confirmation is included I would certaintly ask before I consumated the deal by sending payment. In the particular case i went through it was for 40.00 I paid via paypal with my amex card. I suffiecently protected myself. The seller did noy as he did not buy del.confirmation. The use of such disclaimers as "not responcible for lost or damaged items " that some sellers use is crapola IMO.
A buyer sends payment. The seller sends the item .
Steve
Hey, you're both good guys.
Why don't we meet in the middle over a case of Bud!!!