haha that's the best one I've heard all game. But Ben in an untenable situation like in Houston and see what his record is like. He wins because he has a great running game and a dominant defense.
You're beyond a fanboi if you really believe that. He's on par with Culpepper and McNabb? Huh? Good lord get out of the Ben-light! You're going blind.
<< <i>t doesn't really matter how they won, they won. There are no style points involved. >>
So basically 'yeah the refs gave it to us...I don't care!' >>
BTW, the Steelers were fifth in the NFL this year in rushing. Ironically, the number one rushing team was Atlanta, the home of the most overrated QB of all time. So much for a great running game helping the QB.
What the heck has Culpepper ever done without Moss? I didn't even include him in the conversation for a reason. McNabb has/had just as much talent around him, if not more, than Roethlisberger. How come McNabb hasn't won?
Like I said in my long post earlier, the variables are all over the place. You guys draw too many 'conclusions' based on a single or handful of games.
Ax, by reading your posts, it sure looks like you got the jist of my earlier post where you disagreed with me.
"Roethleisberger has a ring...blah, blah blah" It is starting again. He is being rated better than other QB by virtue of all the variables leaning his direction. Now that 'he' has a ring, and some fool wants to take him over guys like "MARINO" To all who disagreed with me about the Brady thing, you should hopefully see the light on what I was saying.
Yeah, Big Ben has a ring. And you know the funny thing about it?? HE WASN'T EVEN THE BEST PASSER ON HIS TEAM IN THE SUPER BOWL!! Ben had one big play where he scrambled and threw it up for grabs to Ward. That was basically his only positive effect on the game, and Hines Ward gets most of the credit for that play, as it was receiver saavy that allowed the completion. The rest of the game he was horsecrap. He nearly gave the game away like Brady did against Denver in the playoffs. El did more in the Steeler passing game in one play, then Big Ben did in the entire game. Yet Big Ben now has a ring!?!? My goodness.
P.S. Ask Staubach about variables. Go back and watch him vs. the Steelers and a sequence of events that include a referee getting in the defenders way, a muffed kickoff return for a fumble, and Jackie Smith dropped touchdown...all things that cost him a ring.
People draw too many conclusions based on a single championship game, and infer that faulty knowledge into ignorant valuation of players.
Brady, Palmer, P. Manning (even though he chokes on the big stage) may be the only QB's in the NFL that 'stand out' over the rest...Agree?
Next level...Roethlisberger, Hasselback, Brees, McNabb...Agree? Did I miss anyone?
Brady and Roethlisberger are the only ones on this list that have SB titles >>
LOL, Roethlisberger is not a 2nd tier QB. Comparing him to any of these guys (with the possible exception of Brees who's really only played well for 2 of his 5 years) is a real stretch. SB titles doesn't mean you're a great QB. Dilfer played a similar role in his teams SB title like Ben did with his team. They ran on first, ran on second and then typically either ran on third or had him throwing a short pass to convert on third. I will agree that he had a very good game against Denver, but the other games Pittsburgh had still had a heavy rushing output. They rushed for over 100 yards in their games against Cincy and Indy. Ben threw for just over 200 in one game and just under 200 in the other. Nothing spectacular, nothing most other QB's couldn't do when their running game gives them 100 yards. As the stats generally show, the majority of teams win if they get over 100 yards rushing. The majority of teams don't win if their QB only throws for 200 yards. Pittsburgh wins because they run as well as any team. Ben is in there to not make mistakes, not to win games with his arm. >>
How come none of the above teams besides the Pats and Steelers won the Super Bowl, then? The Eagles have been pretty loaded the last few years, how come McNabb hasn't won? You're silly if you don't think the Colts weren't loaded. How come choker Manning has never won? It all comes down to how you define a QB. For me, I'd rather have guys like Bradshaw, Aikman, Brady, Roethlisberger over Marino, Manning, Vick any day. >>
LOL, so you mean you'd rather have a Super Bowl winning QB over one that hasn't won? Of course it's easy to try to look at it that way silly. So using your logic, you'd rather have Dilfer on your team over Marino or Manning? Sorry, I would have taken Marino or Manning over any of those guys you mentioned if I had to build a team from scratch. Vick sucks, so to even mention him with those two is absurd. Those other teams had great defenses. While Marino was playing, the Dolphins never really did and had nothing to speak of as far as a running game. Manning and the Colts never had a defense until this year. If their defense keeps playing like they did this year, he will get his title soon.
This is where everyone's perception of a QB's skills get disjointed. Here a few examples:
Trent Dilfer wins the Super Bowl with the Ravens. They couldn't run him out of town fast enough. They just had to get Elvis Grbac. What was wrong with Dilfer in the first place?
Same thing with Brad Johnson in TB. Why did they have to make a change?
Everyone/every team is always looking for the 'hottest' thing going. I fault ESPN and the media for this crap. Why not just stick with what is working? Should the Steelers look to trade Roethlisberger for a QB that may have better skills? It's silly to think that.
<< <i>This is where everyone's perception of a QB's skills get disjointed. Here a few examples:
Trent Dilfer wins the Super Bowl with the Ravens. They couldn't run him out of town fast enough. They just had to get Elvis Grbac. What was wrong with Dilfer in the first place?
Same thing with Brad Johnson in TB. Why did they have to make a change?
Everyone/every team is always looking for the 'hottest' thing going. I fault ESPN and the media for this crap. Why not just stick with what is working? Should the Steelers look to trade Roethlisberger for a QB that may have better skills? It's silly to think that. >>
I don't recall saying any of these teams needed to change QB's. In a perfect world, you wouldn't lose a player to free agency or release anybody after winning a Super Bowl. But, that doesn't make them a superstar just because they play on a team that won. That also doesn't mean you couldn't improve your team by adding better players.
All I'm trying to get at is there's a reason why the Dolphins, Colts, and Eagles haven't won a Super Bowl with those QB's mentioned. It may not be totally their fault, but they certainly have some type of hand in it. Everyone loves to knock guys like Dilfer, Brad Johnson, Roethlisberger because they don't put up the ridiculous numbers those other guys do, but, hey, they won, didn't they? I thought the bottom line was to win, not who had the best stats, or looked the smoothest doing it?
It totally baffles me when people say that Manning is better than guys like Brady and so on. Manning has never won a thing. The University of Tennessee won the year AFTER he left, with Tee Martin at QB! He never beat Florida. What's his record in NFL playoff games? Why is he better than everyone else? I'd love to hear that argument. Yet, when people are asked whom they would want when building a team, they usually pick Manning.
There are literally thousands of reasons why teams win or don't, and a single player is just one part of that. If you were debating the merits of Navratilova vs. Everret Lloyd, then they have a direct impact on titles, though even in that case there are STILL variables that define whether or not one of them wins in THAT SPECIFIC INSTANCE!
Now that Big Ben has a 'ring', even though he was the second most effective passer on his own team in the Super Bowl, the hype gives him waaay to much credit for the TEAM's success, and Marino waaay too much blame for the TEAM'S 'lack' of success(they tend to ignore the annual 20th ranked defense Marino had because it screws up their perception).
Or, people just take the easy way, and just asssign the win to a single player, without regard to reality.
For the QB title hypers, it is a wonder that an offesnive lineman ever gets to the Hall of Fame, or a RB, or a WR, or a defensive player, because based on your views, their impact has only very little relevance to winning, since the QB is the one that gets the credit or blame for a 'ring'.
I always find it amusing when people state that teams win, and this QB is a good teammate, and embodies everything a teammate should be, and then in the next breath they ignore those virtues by giving the unproportioned credit or blame to an individual. So much for TEAM.
That's about all I will say on this topic, the rest has been said numerous times in the older thread.
<< <i>Of course he didn't...everyone who watched that game not a steelers fan would agree.
The number of calls against Seattle in this game that were questionable...it's too bad, as this game could have been a much better matchup. But then, this entire postseason has been marred with piss poor officiating.
Where's Joey Porter now, running his mouth, saying that the refs wanted the steelers to win it all? >>
At least Cowher was man enough to say Porter was being "ridiculous" by claiming the officials cheated. Same can't be said for Holmgren who's trying to cover up his pi$$ poor clock management and decision making by claiming they had to play a 12th man in stripes.
<< <i>The guy is freakin' like 26-4/27-4 in his career...Yeah, he sucks...About 95% of the teams in the NFL would want him to start for their team... >>
About 95% of the starting QB's in the league could likely compile better stats and wins with Pittsburgh than he does. Nobody goes into their games with Pittburgh worried about him. Their running game is what's its all about and it's been like that for a while. C'mon, his rating is where it's at because he only has to throw 15-20 times a game and they're generally dink and dunk passes. If he has to throw more, it's usually a bad thing. He had a mere 17 TD's to like 9 picks this year. Not the greatest of ratios. 95% of the league would want this guy as a starter? Nah. >>
The Steelers averaged about 3 yards per carry while knocking off the #1, 2 and 3 seeds in the AFC. Ben's passer rating was 125 in those games. He was nervous in the superbowl and played poorly. Not surprising for a 23 year old. Just as he did in the AFCC game, I expect his next superbowl will be a completely different story.
<< <i>One of Jackson's non-Td's had nothing to do with the refs. That is unless you thought he had both feet inbounds. >>
No, he kicked the pylon, which extends to infinity, a la Mike Vick earlier this year. It's just as debatable of a call as the Rothlisberger TD. >>
I'm not sure about the Vick play your referring to. Since he's a QB, I'm assuming he ran into the endzone heading out of bounds while kicking the pylon. If so, that's a TD. When a receiver catches a ball, he needs to maintain possession with both feet in bounds, period. Then he can cross the goal line as a ball carrier and kick the pylon while heading out of bounds. If you claim Jackson should have had the TD, then the rule would now mean the receiver only needs to have one foot in bounds when catching a ball in the end zone. This isn't college football. Read the rule book.
Brady, Palmer, P. Manning (even though he chokes on the big stage) may be the only QB's in the NFL that 'stand out' over the rest...Agree?
Next level...Roethlisberger, Hasselback, Brees, McNabb...Agree? Did I miss anyone?
Brady and Roethlisberger are the only ones on this list that have SB titles >>
LOL, Roethlisberger is not a 2nd tier QB. Comparing him to any of these guys (with the possible exception of Brees who's really only played well for 2 of his 5 years) is a real stretch. SB titles doesn't mean you're a great QB. Dilfer played a similar role in his teams SB title like Ben did with his team. They ran on first, ran on second and then typically either ran on third or had him throwing a short pass to convert on third. I will agree that he had a very good game against Denver, but the other games Pittsburgh had still had a heavy rushing output. They rushed for over 100 yards in their games against Cincy and Indy. Ben threw for just over 200 in one game and just under 200 in the other. Nothing spectacular, nothing most other QB's couldn't do when their running game gives them 100 yards. As the stats generally show, the majority of teams win if they get over 100 yards rushing. The majority of teams don't win if their QB only throws for 200 yards. Pittsburgh wins because they run as well as any team. Ben is in there to not make mistakes, not to win games with his arm. >>
Ben isn't a 2nd tier QB. He's a 1.5 tier QB on the cusp of being a 1st tier QB. His passer rating in his first two seasons was consistantly 98+. His yards per attempt is right at the top (nearly 9). He's not completing 2 yard dinks and dunks. He consistantly throws long and on target. He played poorly in the SB just like he did in his first NFL game, his first NFL playoff game and his first AFC championship game. There's a theme here. He struggles for a short time, then quickly adjusts and elevates his game to the next level. If/when he makes it to the next superbowl, I'm quite confident his rating will be 100+.
By the way, Elway must be a 3rd tier QB because he was absolutely horrid in his first few seasons and couldn't win the big one until he approached 15 seasons in the NFL.
PS - I understand from east coast Steeler fans that Ben was just on Letterman and admitted he played through the entire playoffs with a broken thumb.
<< <i>All I'm trying to get at is there's a reason why the Dolphins, Colts, and Eagles haven't won a Super Bowl with those QB's mentioned. It may not be totally their fault, but they certainly have some type of hand in it. Everyone loves to knock guys like Dilfer, Brad Johnson, Roethlisberger because they don't put up the ridiculous numbers those other guys do, but, hey, they won, didn't they? I thought the bottom line was to win, not who had the best stats, or looked the smoothest doing it?
It totally baffles me when people say that Manning is better than guys like Brady and so on. Manning has never won a thing. The University of Tennessee won the year AFTER he left, with Tee Martin at QB! He never beat Florida. What's his record in NFL playoff games? Why is he better than everyone else? I'd love to hear that argument. Yet, when people are asked whom they would want when building a team, they usually pick Manning. >>
Put Marino or Manning or any QB who hasn't won a super bowl with that running game and that defense, and tell me they don't win it all (well maybe not manning, he's a known choker).
Was it ever Marino's fault he never had a decent running game? And tell me sparky, how did Elway do in super bowls until he had a top notch running game? So by your own admission, ben's as good as Dilfer or Johnson? Is that what you're saying? As big a fan as I was of Brad, no one would ever mistake him for a second tier QB.
Who said manning was better than Brady? I don't recall that post being made? I thought this was about ben being a 'second tier' QB? Like I said, put that guy in Houston and see how he fares. I don't think you or anyone else would call him a second tier QB then. He was horrific in the super bowl, and he sure as hell didn't win the game like Brady did in his three wins. Brady was a major contributing factor to the pats winning - it took ben the help of the officials to not lose it.
<< <i> PS - I understand from east coast Steeler fans that Ben was just on Letterman and admitted he played through the entire playoffs with a broken thumb. >>
And he also admitted he didn't get in, either. But then, the ref running down the field, pointing to the ball being down and then raising the TD after the play was over and he moved the ball had no bearing on the outcome, right?
Steeler apologists will say 'they would have gone for it on fourth' and the seahawks likely would have shut them down, just like they did the previous three plays.
<< <i> PS - I understand from east coast Steeler fans that Ben was just on Letterman and admitted he played through the entire playoffs with a broken thumb. >>
And he also admitted he didn't get in, either. But then, the ref running down the field, pointing to the ball being down and then raising the TD after the play was over and he moved the ball had no bearing on the outcome, right?
Steeler apologists will say 'they would have gone for it on fourth' and the seahawks likely would have shut them down, just like they did the previous three plays. >>
Of course they would have been stuffed. Just like the Hawks would have definitely scored from inside the 5. Just like Jackson never touched the defender in the endzone PI call. Just like having one foot in bounds is a reception. Just like Big Ben is a 3rd tier QB. Just like Jerome Bettis isn't a HOFer.
You may not be a Seahawk fan but you definitely hate on the Steelers. You must have lost a bet on them in superbowl 14.
<< <i>All I'm trying to get at is there's a reason why the Dolphins, Colts, and Eagles haven't won a Super Bowl with those QB's mentioned. It may not be totally their fault, but they certainly have some type of hand in it. Everyone loves to knock guys like Dilfer, Brad Johnson, Roethlisberger because they don't put up the ridiculous numbers those other guys do, but, hey, they won, didn't they? I thought the bottom line was to win, not who had the best stats, or looked the smoothest doing it?
It totally baffles me when people say that Manning is better than guys like Brady and so on. Manning has never won a thing. The University of Tennessee won the year AFTER he left, with Tee Martin at QB! He never beat Florida. What's his record in NFL playoff games? Why is he better than everyone else? I'd love to hear that argument. Yet, when people are asked whom they would want when building a team, they usually pick Manning. >>
Put Marino or Manning or any QB who hasn't won a super bowl with that running game and that defense, and tell me they don't win it all (well maybe not manning, he's a known choker).
Was it ever Marino's fault he never had a decent running game? And tell me sparky, how did Elway do in super bowls until he had a top notch running game? So by your own admission, ben's as good as Dilfer or Johnson? Is that what you're saying? As big a fan as I was of Brad, no one would ever mistake him for a second tier QB.
Who said manning was better than Brady? I don't recall that post being made? I thought this was about ben being a 'second tier' QB? Like I said, put that guy in Houston and see how he fares. I don't think you or anyone else would call him a second tier QB then. He was horrific in the super bowl, and he sure as hell didn't win the game like Brady did in his three wins. Brady was a major contributing factor to the pats winning - it took ben the help of the officials to not lose it. >>
Put Marino in Houston and see how he fares. The Fins were never that bad. None of the second tier QBs on that list had QB ratings like Big Ben. Oh, and Ben hardly had a Duper and Clayton. Hines is a great possession receiver but the rest of the cast are only average or slightly better. Heath will become a monster in a few years. Cedric the Enterainer is decent but not great. El is a great utility man. He's a "Slash" that admits he isn't a starting QB even though he probably would be better at it than Korky was.
After looking at the Darrell Jackson pylon play, I agree. He was out of bounds and it was not a TD. The first Darrell Jackson TD negated by a PI was total bushleague. You don't make that call in the SB.
Regarding Worthlessberger (I don't hate him, I just like that name!), who is to say what would have happened on 4th down? I seem to recall a certain Jerome Bettis fumbling against the Colts on 4th and goal from the 1.
Jeremy Stevens catch put the ball at the 1, and anything could have happened.
What does the Worthlessberger and Stevens plays have in common? They were both decided by the officials! It the Super Bowl! Let the players decide it!
This is why they should have micro transducers in the ball to actually tell if it crossed the palne. Anyways, forgot about the horse collar noncall, one of many bs calls. Im trying to forget about this bs game but its tough. They lost a few fans from this one.
Has the NFL addressed this game yet? Its not liek only this message board is talking about it, every single one I have visited is like this.
<< <i>Ben did cross the goal . All you have to do is touch the white paint. The white line goes upward also.
While Ben was in the air, he touched the line, with the ball. While in the air, he was knocked back. Ref saw what I did. So did replay..
>>
Wrong wrong wrong. He didn't touch the ball with the line in the air...everybody and their sister knows this, but only steeler fans seem oblivious to the fact this was a bogus call. The worst part? The ref is coming in, running with his hand pointing to the ground indicating the spot, and then, after the play is over and Ben is pushing the ball over the line, does he signal touchdown. GARBAGE.
<< <i> The push off call, was just that. A push off. I know it happens every play, but DON'T do it RIGHT INFRONT of a ref. >>
It wasn't a push off, and it happens on every pass...to make that call in the super bowl in front of (a supposed 90 million) watching is absolute junk.
<< <i>The better team did win the game. Big Ben is a stud. >>
No, the better team didn't win. Pittsburgh + the officials won the game. And big ben is a stud? Wow, you must have some ridiculously low expectations or quarterbacks, or do you call 2 int's, and a passer rating under 40 'stud'ly?
<< <i> You may not be a Seahawk fan but you definitely hate on the Steelers. You must have lost a bet on them in superbowl 14. >>
No, I don't care enough for the steelers to invest any emotion, let alone hate. But they were assisted by the officials and were handed the super bowl. I know there are many bandwagon steeler fans out there who won't admit it, but the real ones know this super bowl win wasn't as sweet because of all the help they got from the refs.
<< <i>Ben did cross the goal . All you have to do is touch the white paint. The white line goes upward also.
While Ben was in the air, he touched the line, with the ball. While in the air, he was knocked back. Ref saw what I did. So did replay..
>>
Wrong wrong wrong. He didn't touch the ball with the line in the air...everybody and their sister knows this, but only steeler fans seem oblivious to the fact this was a bogus call. The worst part? The ref is coming in, running with his hand pointing to the ground indicating the spot, and then, after the play is over and Ben is pushing the ball over the line, does he signal touchdown. GARBAGE.
<< <i> The push off call, was just that. A push off. I know it happens every play, but DON'T do it RIGHT INFRONT of a ref. >>
It wasn't a push off, and it happens on every pass...to make that call in the super bowl in front of (a supposed 90 million) watching is absolute junk.
<< <i>The better team did win the game. Big Ben is a stud. >>
No, the better team didn't win. Pittsburgh + the officials won the game. And big ben is a stud? Wow, you must have some ridiculously low expectations or quarterbacks, or do you call 2 int's, and a passer rating under 40 'stud'ly? >>
Question for you, then, supposed Bucs fan (who knows, it seems like it's Seattle, now, since they made the Super Bowl). Who would you rather have, Big Ben or Chris Simms? I thought so...
After looking at the Darrell Jackson pylon play, I agree. He was out of bounds and it was not a TD. The first Darrell Jackson TD negated by a PI was total bushleague. You don't make that call in the SB.
Regarding Worthlessberger (I don't hate him, I just like that name!), who is to say what would have happened on 4th down? I seem to recall a certain Jerome Bettis fumbling against the Colts on 4th and goal from the 1.
Jeremy Stevens catch put the ball at the 1, and anything could have happened.
What does the Worthlessberger and Stevens plays have in common? They were both decided by the officials! It the Super Bowl! Let the players decide it! >>
Too bad 'D-Jack' couldn't keep his foot inbounds. Another 'almost' from another 'almost star' from UF...
[q Question for you, then, supposed Bucs fan (who knows, it seems like it's Seattle, now, since they made the Super Bowl). Who would you rather have, Big Ben or Chris Simms? I thought so... >>
What does that have to do with anything, sparky?
Simms played in 11 games this year, with over 2000 yards, and over 60% completion rating.
Ben's first year, he played in 14 games, with about 2600 yards, and 66% completion rating.
I am not a Seahawks fan (though I do believe Alexander is the most underrated back in the league...even with an MVP award...most fans don't give him his due), I've been a Bucs fan for a long time, and that's not going to change.
I think comparing their rookie seasons, both QBs have very, very similar numbers. I'll take Simms because he has the heritage, and is more mobile.
Uh, no it didn't. Even Worthlessberger himself admitted he didn't get in.
The team has a good record over the last two seasons, not Ben. It's a team game. He's never made one tackle, except for the ones following an interception.
Cowher is smart. He doesn't put the game in Ben's hands. He wants him to manage the game, not win it. He'll get better, but the definitely take the team on his shoulders, and he's far from the team leader.
Neither team played worth a shat. The officiating tipped the scales in Pitt's favor. Like I said, it's not how I would want to win.
A Run to Remember * Highlight - In this one, legendary receiver Cris Carter calls the PI call legitimate. "That was the right call. Jackson pushed off to gain an advantage." By the way, Carter had picked the Seahawks to win.
" And after spending a week in Detroit, I thought the city had cleaned up most of its crime.
The first-quarter offensive pass interference called on Darrell Jackson that turned a touchdown into a field goal was robbery enough. But the fourth-quarter holding call on Sean Locklear made you wonder whether the refs had even less of Aretha's r-e-s-p-E-c-t for your Seahawks than I do."
We could go back and forth and post links to infinity...the point is, that there are enough people clamoring that the officials jobbed Seattle and made a number of calls that directly influenced the game (and this isn't just coming from Seahawk fans, this is from all points not named Pittsburgh).
And an ESPN 'sports nation' poll of over 103,000 people:
Do you think officiating mistakes affected the outcome of Super Bowl XL? (103,167 votes) 61.7% Yes 38.2% No
What grade would you give referee Bill Leavy's officiating crew for Super Bowl XL? (118,130 votes) 50.6% F 24.8% D 13.9% C 8.8% B 1.9% A
(I'm guessing that 10.7% who gave them A's and B's are steeler fans)
Do you think the official made the right call on Darrell Jackson's offensive pass interference in the endzone, negating a Seattle touchdown in the first quarter? (118,130 votes) 73.8% No 20.5% Yes 5.7% I'm not sure
Do you think the football broke the plane of the goal line on Ben Roethlisberger's touchdown run in the second quarter? (118,130 votes) 59.3% No 25.9% Yes 14.8% I'm not sure
Do you think the official made the right call on Sean Locklear's holding penalty in the fourth quarter, negating an 18-yard reception to the one-yard line by Jerramy Stevens? (118,130 votes) 74.3% No 15.3% Yes 10.4% I'm not sure
You steeler fans (I'm going to call them the Stealers from now on) are in the minority on these calls, and in most of them, the VAST minority.
Just admit it - your team got tons of help from the officials, and without their errors, likely wouldn't have won the game.
Skip Bayless? Please. He's a complete joke. Especially when it comes to commenting on the Steelers.
Of course public opinion is currently stating they think the officiating affected the outcome. That's because ESPN has been brainwashing them for the past two days. After ESPN milks this for all the ratings they can get, they'll drop it and the casual fan will forget. That will only leave the Seahawk fans remaining. Some will come to their senses and finally admit their team didn't play well enough to win while others will continue to live in denial.
<< <i>Skip Bayless? Please. He's a complete joke. Especially when it comes to commenting on the Steelers. >>
Oh so your columns are somehow better?
I didn't realize yahoo sports was the leading sports authority...who the hell are Charles Robinson and Dan Wetzel? Cris Carter? Please, do you ever listen to his incoherent ramblings on HBO's 'Inside the NFL'? He calls the Stealers postseason the best of all time? Uhm, I see he failed to mention they beat the Bengals without their QB, no?
<< <i> Of course public opinion is currently stating they think the officiating affected the outcome. That's because ESPN has been brainwashing them for the past two days. After ESPN milks this for all the ratings they can get, they'll drop it and the casual fan will forget. That will only leave the Seahawk fans remaining. Some will come to their senses and finally admit their team didn't play well enough to win while others will continue to live in denial. >>
So ESPN is brainwashing people now? hahahahaha
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to KNOW that the officials determined the outcome of the game...get out of that black and yellow bandwagon you've climbed on..it's apparent you're delusional.
<< <i>It doesn't take a rocket scientist to KNOW that the officials determined the outcome of the game...get out of that black and yellow bandwagon you've climbed on..it's apparent you're delusional. >>
Those were all legitimate penalties except for the cut block call on Hasselback. You can argue that they were minor infractions and shouldn't have been called in a game of this magnitude but you can't say they were not infractions. Unless you believe Jackson when he claims he never even touched the defender.
<< <i>About 95% of the starting QB's in the league could likely compile better stats and wins with Pittsburgh than he does. Nobody goes into their games with Pittburgh worried about him. Their running game is what's its all about and it's been like that for a while. C'mon, his rating is where it's at because he only has to throw 15-20 times a game and they're generally dink and dunk passes. If he has to throw more, it's usually a bad thing. He had a mere 17 TD's to like 9 picks this year. Not the greatest of ratios. 95% of the league would want this guy as a starter? Nah. >>
<< <i>The Steelers averaged about 3 yards per carry while knocking off the #1, 2 and 3 seeds in the AFC. Ben's passer rating was 125 in those games. He was nervous in the superbowl and played poorly. Not surprising for a 23 year old. Just as he did in the AFCC game, I expect his next superbowl will be a completely different story. >>
In the game against Cincy, Pittsburghs 3 main RB's (Parker, Bettis and Haynes) ran for nearly 140 yards and averaged 4.5 yards/carry... In the second game, they ran for 113 and averaged 3.1. The tone of the first game was clearly set by the running game, period. The second game was average for the RB's, but Ben was merely average himself throwing the ball 24 times for a little less than 200 yards (2 TD's, 1 pick, 8 yds per attempt). Ben did have a very good game against Denver. The RB's didn't have a huge impact at all, as Bettis and Parker combined for like 75 yards on 30 carries. Gotta give the D some credit in this victory too though, as they forced Plummer into 4 turnovers. The Super Bowl was mainly the RB's and we all know that. Ben sucked donkey balls and picked up about 1/3 of his paltry 123 yards on a play he threw up for grabs and was fortunate to see his WR grab.
Pittsburgh had a 10-5-1 record in 2002 with Tommy Maddox of all people, an NFL bust his entire career until he came to the Steelers. Friggin Charlie Batch was at the helm for 2 of the Steelers victories this year. I'm not saying these guys are better than Roethlisbeger because they are not IMO. I'm just saying that these guys couldn't lead most teams to a victory if their lives depended on it, but both have had some success in Pittsburgh simply because the focus of this team is not the QB position. Ben is not a first tier or a second tier QB, no matter how you slice it. He's an average QB who is flourishing in a good all-around system. Will he ever be a top caliber QB? Maybe, but he isn't now. And as far as Elway is concerned, he did struggle on and off for a bit. Believe me, nobody was going to be placing him in the HOF early in his career but some are talking as if Ben is ready to be enshrined already because HIS TEAM won the Super Bowl. People say Manning is at fault for his team losing playoff games, but there were times where his team just choked as their kicker did against Pitt this year. Manning had a similar completion percentage and yards/pass average to Roethlisberger in that game and Manning had 0 turnovers. They had a lot more penalties in the game than Pitt did as well. Overall, everyone still blames Manning for the loss though even though he had a decent game. If they had won, everyone would have said he played well because of his numbers but because they lost, he simply choked. To reverse the situation, Ben has a terrible Super Bowl. If they would have lost, he would have been the new choker for us all to laugh about. But they won by no real doing of his, and the words "he choked" are replaced with "his intangibles".
Pittsburgh has a great running game and a super defense. That will win nearly 10 games for any team. All the QB has to do, ala Ben, is not make too many mistakes. Ben is solid IMO, but if he plays the same way every year for the next 10 years and doesn't win another Super Bowl, he will not be anything close to a Hall of Fame player.
And in the spirit of the post I'll answer the question as I never really did. I do believe that he did cross the "imaginary" vertical goal line for the TD. It was close, but I do think he did. My problem was that I don't think that the ref thought he did until after he ran up onto the play. Did bad calls decide the game? No, but they likely had a factor. Was the call against Jackson a bad one? No, that's silly... I am tired of hearing people whine about that. They may not call that every time, but it is a penalty and it was called this time and there's nothing wrong with that. Sometimes refs wont call a penalty if the direct result isn't a score or scoring opportunity. In this case it was going to be a touchdown if the call wasn't made. Look at it from the other way. If the Steelers DB shoved the WR in the back so that he could intercept the ball, Seahawk fans would still be up in arms. The right call was made...
<< <i>The first-quarter offensive pass interference called on Darrell Jackson that turned a touchdown into a field goal was robbery enough. >>
So Jackson pushes off right in front of the ref and you think its a bad call. I suppose if the call wasn't made you'de be here whining that it was a terrible no-call.
The calls didn't determine the outcome of the game. If Seattle wants to find someone to blame maybe they should blame themsleves.
Perhaps if Seattle didsn't give up a 75 yard TD run and the trcik play TD they might have won but they didn't.
Well I certainly wouldn't be claiming Ben should be enshrined at this point in his career. He needs to continue to develop and play at a high level for another ten seasons to warrent that consideration. However, his play compares favorably with many of the all-time greats in terms of their first few seasons.
Regarding the Cincy game, Pittsburgh came out throwing until they established a sizeable lead. Then they turned to the run and the running game piled up big yardage as they ground out the clock. So the tone of that game clearly was not set by the running game. Like all three playoff games, Pittsburgh used the pass to set up the run. The reason Ben's numbers weren't bigger is that he barely threw in the 2nd half once they established a 10+ point lead. That's Cowher's M.O. Ben sucked in the Super bowl. No refuting that one.
Regarding Tommy Maddox, he came back to the league a different QB. He had great touch on his passes and he looked like a keeper. He put up 500+ yards passing against the Falcons and had several other strong performances in a great year. Then he got temporarily paralized on that hit in Houston and was never the same. He became a deer in headlights. After that 10-5-1 season, they went 6-10. Then they started out 1-1 in 2005 until Maddox got hurt and Ben took over. The line played poorly in 2003 and early in 2004. Ben's pocket presence and scrambling ability buys time and covers up for breakdowns in protection. Pittsburgh's line is much better at run blocking than pass blocking. Max Starks is a bulldozer in run blocking but has not yet developed the footwork necessary to be an effective pass blocker. This was apparent when that statue named Tommy Maddox filled in a few games this year.
After watching Korky Stewart continually squander great Steeler teams year after year, it's very apparent that Pittsburgh can't win with just any old QB. If Pittsburgh needs to rely on their passing game to win, I have no concerns that Ben will step up and perform. My only concern is the strength of the receiving corp. If Randle El goes, they need to replace him with a qaulity deep threat.
I agree he shouldn't be placed at the top but he certainly is in the second tier at worst. With a 100 passer rating in his first two seasons, one of the league's best yards per attempt ratings and playing through significant injuries this season, he's proven he can do more than manage a game. Cowher has gained confidence in him and is loosening the reigns on him. I'm not convinced Willie Parker can carry the team like the Bus and Duce did. I see the Steelers throwing a lot more next year.
<< <i>Perhaps if the refs hadn't given the TD to ben. >>
It was a TD >>
Ben HIMSELF said he didn't get in...so shut your hole.
<< <i>There's an overwhelming majority of people who feel the Stealers got lots and lots of help. >>
And some of them are know-it-all whiners like you.
Let it go. >>
No, I won't let it go...the piss poor officitiating throughout the entire playoffs was a disgrace...and anyone who's a football fan SHOULDN'T let it go. Obviously you are just a board troll with no vested interest in football.
<< <i>Ben HIMSELF said he didn't get in...so shut your hole. >>
Funny, the interview I saw with Ben he said he did get in. >>
Yep, said it on Rome yesterday. He said when I said he didn't think he got in, it was before he saw the replay. He was commenting based on when he hit the ground, he felt he came up short (which he did). When he saw the replay, he realized he broke the plane when he initially lunged in the air.
Comments
<< <i>Ben's a second tier QB?
haha that's the best one I've heard all game. But Ben in an untenable situation like in Houston and see what his record is like. He wins because he has a great running game and a dominant defense.
You're beyond a fanboi if you really believe that. He's on par with Culpepper and McNabb? Huh? Good lord get out of the Ben-light! You're going blind.
<< <i>t doesn't really matter how they won, they won. There are no style points involved. >>
So basically 'yeah the refs gave it to us...I don't care!' >>
BTW, the Steelers were fifth in the NFL this year in rushing. Ironically, the number one rushing team was Atlanta, the home of the most overrated QB of all time. So much for a great running game helping the QB.
What the heck has Culpepper ever done without Moss? I didn't even include him in the conversation for a reason. McNabb has/had just as much talent around him, if not more, than Roethlisberger. How come McNabb hasn't won?
Ax, by reading your posts, it sure looks like you got the jist of my earlier post where you disagreed with me.
"Roethleisberger has a ring...blah, blah blah" It is starting again. He is being rated better than other QB by virtue of all the variables leaning his direction. Now that 'he' has a ring, and some fool wants to take him over guys like "MARINO" To all who disagreed with me about the Brady thing, you should hopefully see the light on what I was saying.
Yeah, Big Ben has a ring. And you know the funny thing about it?? HE WASN'T EVEN THE BEST PASSER ON HIS TEAM IN THE SUPER BOWL!!
Ben had one big play where he scrambled and threw it up for grabs to Ward. That was basically his only positive effect on the game, and Hines Ward gets most of the credit for that play, as it was receiver saavy that allowed the completion. The rest of the game he was horsecrap. He nearly gave the game away like Brady did against Denver in the playoffs. El did more in the Steeler passing game in one play, then Big Ben did in the entire game. Yet Big Ben now has a ring!?!? My goodness.
P.S. Ask Staubach about variables. Go back and watch him vs. the Steelers and a sequence of events that include a referee getting in the defenders way, a muffed kickoff return for a fumble, and Jackie Smith dropped touchdown...all things that cost him a ring.
People draw too many conclusions based on a single championship game, and infer that faulty knowledge into ignorant valuation of players.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>To dirtmonkey:
Brady, Palmer, P. Manning (even though he chokes on the big stage) may be the only QB's in the NFL that 'stand out' over the rest...Agree?
Next level...Roethlisberger, Hasselback, Brees, McNabb...Agree? Did I miss anyone?
Brady and Roethlisberger are the only ones on this list that have SB titles >>
LOL, Roethlisberger is not a 2nd tier QB. Comparing him to any of these guys (with the possible exception of Brees who's really only played well for 2 of his 5 years) is a real stretch. SB titles doesn't mean you're a great QB. Dilfer played a similar role in his teams SB title like Ben did with his team. They ran on first, ran on second and then typically either ran on third or had him throwing a short pass to convert on third. I will agree that he had a very good game against Denver, but the other games Pittsburgh had still had a heavy rushing output. They rushed for over 100 yards in their games against Cincy and Indy. Ben threw for just over 200 in one game and just under 200 in the other. Nothing spectacular, nothing most other QB's couldn't do when their running game gives them 100 yards. As the stats generally show, the majority of teams win if they get over 100 yards rushing. The majority of teams don't win if their QB only throws for 200 yards. Pittsburgh wins because they run as well as any team. Ben is in there to not make mistakes, not to win games with his arm. >>
How come none of the above teams besides the Pats and Steelers won the Super Bowl, then? The Eagles have been pretty loaded the last few years, how come McNabb hasn't won? You're silly if you don't think the Colts weren't loaded. How come choker Manning has never won? It all comes down to how you define a QB. For me, I'd rather have guys like Bradshaw, Aikman, Brady, Roethlisberger over Marino, Manning, Vick any day. >>
LOL, so you mean you'd rather have a Super Bowl winning QB over one that hasn't won? Of course it's easy to try to look at it that way silly. So using your logic, you'd rather have Dilfer on your team over Marino or Manning? Sorry, I would have taken Marino or Manning over any of those guys you mentioned if I had to build a team from scratch. Vick sucks, so to even mention him with those two is absurd. Those other teams had great defenses. While Marino was playing, the Dolphins never really did and had nothing to speak of as far as a running game. Manning and the Colts never had a defense until this year. If their defense keeps playing like they did this year, he will get his title soon.
Trent Dilfer wins the Super Bowl with the Ravens. They couldn't run him out of town fast enough. They just had to get Elvis Grbac. What was wrong with Dilfer in the first place?
Same thing with Brad Johnson in TB. Why did they have to make a change?
Everyone/every team is always looking for the 'hottest' thing going. I fault ESPN and the media for this crap. Why not just stick with what is working? Should the Steelers look to trade Roethlisberger for a QB that may have better skills? It's silly to think that.
<< <i>This is where everyone's perception of a QB's skills get disjointed. Here a few examples:
Trent Dilfer wins the Super Bowl with the Ravens. They couldn't run him out of town fast enough. They just had to get Elvis Grbac. What was wrong with Dilfer in the first place?
Same thing with Brad Johnson in TB. Why did they have to make a change?
Everyone/every team is always looking for the 'hottest' thing going. I fault ESPN and the media for this crap. Why not just stick with what is working? Should the Steelers look to trade Roethlisberger for a QB that may have better skills? It's silly to think that. >>
I don't recall saying any of these teams needed to change QB's. In a perfect world, you wouldn't lose a player to free agency or release anybody after winning a Super Bowl. But, that doesn't make them a superstar just because they play on a team that won. That also doesn't mean you couldn't improve your team by adding better players.
It totally baffles me when people say that Manning is better than guys like Brady and so on. Manning has never won a thing. The University of Tennessee won the year AFTER he left, with Tee Martin at QB! He never beat Florida. What's his record in NFL playoff games? Why is he better than everyone else? I'd love to hear that argument. Yet, when people are asked whom they would want when building a team, they usually pick Manning.
Now that Big Ben has a 'ring', even though he was the second most effective passer on his own team in the Super Bowl, the hype gives him waaay to much credit for the TEAM's success, and Marino waaay too much blame for the TEAM'S 'lack' of success(they tend to ignore the annual 20th ranked defense Marino had because it screws up their perception).
Or, people just take the easy way, and just asssign the win to a single player, without regard to reality.
For the QB title hypers, it is a wonder that an offesnive lineman ever gets to the Hall of Fame, or a RB, or a WR, or a defensive player, because based on your views, their impact has only very little relevance to winning, since the QB is the one that gets the credit or blame for a 'ring'.
I always find it amusing when people state that teams win, and this QB is a good teammate, and embodies everything a teammate should be, and then in the next breath they ignore those virtues by giving the unproportioned credit or blame to an individual. So much for TEAM.
That's about all I will say on this topic, the rest has been said numerous times in the older thread.
<< <i>Of course he didn't...everyone who watched that game not a steelers fan would agree.
The number of calls against Seattle in this game that were questionable...it's too bad, as this game could have been a much better matchup. But then, this entire postseason has been marred with piss poor officiating.
Where's Joey Porter now, running his mouth, saying that the refs wanted the steelers to win it all? >>
At least Cowher was man enough to say Porter was being "ridiculous" by claiming the officials cheated. Same can't be said for Holmgren who's trying to cover up his pi$$ poor clock management and decision making by claiming they had to play a 12th man in stripes.
<< <i>
How about if Worthlessberger is not given the TD, and they either go for it and fail, or kick a FG?
How about Jeremy Stevens catching the ball inside the 5, putting Seattle in position for the go-ahead TD when the Pitt defense was reeling. >>
This is so priceless. Under this scenario, Pitt doesn't score on 4th and 0.0001" (-4 points). Seattle automatically scores inside the 5 (+7 points).
Counting hanging chads?
<< <i>
<< <i>The guy is freakin' like 26-4/27-4 in his career...Yeah, he sucks...About 95% of the teams in the NFL would want him to start for their team... >>
About 95% of the starting QB's in the league could likely compile better stats and wins with Pittsburgh than he does. Nobody goes into their games with Pittburgh worried about him. Their running game is what's its all about and it's been like that for a while. C'mon, his rating is where it's at because he only has to throw 15-20 times a game and they're generally dink and dunk passes. If he has to throw more, it's usually a bad thing. He had a mere 17 TD's to like 9 picks this year. Not the greatest of ratios. 95% of the league would want this guy as a starter? Nah. >>
The Steelers averaged about 3 yards per carry while knocking off the #1, 2 and 3 seeds in the AFC. Ben's passer rating was 125 in those games. He was nervous in the superbowl and played poorly. Not surprising for a 23 year old. Just as he did in the AFCC game, I expect his next superbowl will be a completely different story.
<< <i>
<< <i>One of Jackson's non-Td's had nothing to do with the refs. That is unless you thought he had both feet inbounds. >>
No, he kicked the pylon, which extends to infinity, a la Mike Vick earlier this year. It's just as debatable of a call as the Rothlisberger TD. >>
I'm not sure about the Vick play your referring to. Since he's a QB, I'm assuming he ran into the endzone heading out of bounds while kicking the pylon. If so, that's a TD. When a receiver catches a ball, he needs to maintain possession with both feet in bounds, period. Then he can cross the goal line as a ball carrier and kick the pylon while heading out of bounds. If you claim Jackson should have had the TD, then the rule would now mean the receiver only needs to have one foot in bounds when catching a ball in the end zone. This isn't college football. Read the rule book.
<< <i>
<< <i>To dirtmonkey:
Brady, Palmer, P. Manning (even though he chokes on the big stage) may be the only QB's in the NFL that 'stand out' over the rest...Agree?
Next level...Roethlisberger, Hasselback, Brees, McNabb...Agree? Did I miss anyone?
Brady and Roethlisberger are the only ones on this list that have SB titles >>
LOL, Roethlisberger is not a 2nd tier QB. Comparing him to any of these guys (with the possible exception of Brees who's really only played well for 2 of his 5 years) is a real stretch. SB titles doesn't mean you're a great QB. Dilfer played a similar role in his teams SB title like Ben did with his team. They ran on first, ran on second and then typically either ran on third or had him throwing a short pass to convert on third. I will agree that he had a very good game against Denver, but the other games Pittsburgh had still had a heavy rushing output. They rushed for over 100 yards in their games against Cincy and Indy. Ben threw for just over 200 in one game and just under 200 in the other. Nothing spectacular, nothing most other QB's couldn't do when their running game gives them 100 yards. As the stats generally show, the majority of teams win if they get over 100 yards rushing. The majority of teams don't win if their QB only throws for 200 yards. Pittsburgh wins because they run as well as any team. Ben is in there to not make mistakes, not to win games with his arm. >>
Ben isn't a 2nd tier QB. He's a 1.5 tier QB on the cusp of being a 1st tier QB. His passer rating in his first two seasons was consistantly 98+. His yards per attempt is right at the top (nearly 9). He's not completing 2 yard dinks and dunks. He consistantly throws long and on target. He played poorly in the SB just like he did in his first NFL game, his first NFL playoff game and his first AFC championship game. There's a theme here. He struggles for a short time, then quickly adjusts and elevates his game to the next level. If/when he makes it to the next superbowl, I'm quite confident his rating will be 100+.
By the way, Elway must be a 3rd tier QB because he was absolutely horrid in his first few seasons and couldn't win the big one until he approached 15 seasons in the NFL.
PS - I understand from east coast Steeler fans that Ben was just on Letterman and admitted he played through the entire playoffs with a broken thumb.
<< <i>All I'm trying to get at is there's a reason why the Dolphins, Colts, and Eagles haven't won a Super Bowl with those QB's mentioned. It may not be totally their fault, but they certainly have some type of hand in it. Everyone loves to knock guys like Dilfer, Brad Johnson, Roethlisberger because they don't put up the ridiculous numbers those other guys do, but, hey, they won, didn't they? I thought the bottom line was to win, not who had the best stats, or looked the smoothest doing it?
It totally baffles me when people say that Manning is better than guys like Brady and so on. Manning has never won a thing. The University of Tennessee won the year AFTER he left, with Tee Martin at QB! He never beat Florida. What's his record in NFL playoff games? Why is he better than everyone else? I'd love to hear that argument. Yet, when people are asked whom they would want when building a team, they usually pick Manning. >>
Put Marino or Manning or any QB who hasn't won a super bowl with that running game and that defense, and tell me they don't win it all (well maybe not manning, he's a known choker).
Was it ever Marino's fault he never had a decent running game? And tell me sparky, how did Elway do in super bowls until he had a top notch running game? So by your own admission, ben's as good as Dilfer or Johnson? Is that what you're saying? As big a fan as I was of Brad, no one would ever mistake him for a second tier QB.
Who said manning was better than Brady? I don't recall that post being made? I thought this was about ben being a 'second tier' QB? Like I said, put that guy in Houston and see how he fares. I don't think you or anyone else would call him a second tier QB then. He was horrific in the super bowl, and he sure as hell didn't win the game like Brady did in his three wins. Brady was a major contributing factor to the pats winning - it took ben the help of the officials to not lose it.
<< <i>
PS - I understand from east coast Steeler fans that Ben was just on Letterman and admitted he played through the entire playoffs with a broken thumb. >>
And he also admitted he didn't get in, either. But then, the ref running down the field, pointing to the ball being down and then raising the TD after the play was over and he moved the ball had no bearing on the outcome, right?
Steeler apologists will say 'they would have gone for it on fourth' and the seahawks likely would have shut them down, just like they did the previous three plays.
<< <i>
<< <i>
PS - I understand from east coast Steeler fans that Ben was just on Letterman and admitted he played through the entire playoffs with a broken thumb. >>
And he also admitted he didn't get in, either. But then, the ref running down the field, pointing to the ball being down and then raising the TD after the play was over and he moved the ball had no bearing on the outcome, right?
Steeler apologists will say 'they would have gone for it on fourth' and the seahawks likely would have shut them down, just like they did the previous three plays. >>
Of course they would have been stuffed. Just like the Hawks would have definitely scored from inside the 5. Just like Jackson never touched the defender in the endzone PI call. Just like having one foot in bounds is a reception. Just like Big Ben is a 3rd tier QB. Just like Jerome Bettis isn't a HOFer.
You may not be a Seahawk fan but you definitely hate on the Steelers. You must have lost a bet on them in superbowl 14.
<< <i> You must have lost a bet on them in superbowl 14. >>
Axtell wasn't even a sperm yet in Super Bowl 14. As a matter of fact, I don't think he EVER was a sperm. A dingleberry more likely
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
While Ben was in the air, he touched the line, with the ball. While in the air, he was knocked back. Ref saw what I did.
So did replay..
The push off call, was just that. A push off. I know it happens every play, but DON'T do it RIGHT INFRONT of a ref.
The better team did win the game. Big Ben is a stud.
<< <i>
<< <i>All I'm trying to get at is there's a reason why the Dolphins, Colts, and Eagles haven't won a Super Bowl with those QB's mentioned. It may not be totally their fault, but they certainly have some type of hand in it. Everyone loves to knock guys like Dilfer, Brad Johnson, Roethlisberger because they don't put up the ridiculous numbers those other guys do, but, hey, they won, didn't they? I thought the bottom line was to win, not who had the best stats, or looked the smoothest doing it?
It totally baffles me when people say that Manning is better than guys like Brady and so on. Manning has never won a thing. The University of Tennessee won the year AFTER he left, with Tee Martin at QB! He never beat Florida. What's his record in NFL playoff games? Why is he better than everyone else? I'd love to hear that argument. Yet, when people are asked whom they would want when building a team, they usually pick Manning. >>
Put Marino or Manning or any QB who hasn't won a super bowl with that running game and that defense, and tell me they don't win it all (well maybe not manning, he's a known choker).
Was it ever Marino's fault he never had a decent running game? And tell me sparky, how did Elway do in super bowls until he had a top notch running game? So by your own admission, ben's as good as Dilfer or Johnson? Is that what you're saying? As big a fan as I was of Brad, no one would ever mistake him for a second tier QB.
Who said manning was better than Brady? I don't recall that post being made? I thought this was about ben being a 'second tier' QB? Like I said, put that guy in Houston and see how he fares. I don't think you or anyone else would call him a second tier QB then. He was horrific in the super bowl, and he sure as hell didn't win the game like Brady did in his three wins. Brady was a major contributing factor to the pats winning - it took ben the help of the officials to not lose it. >>
Put Marino in Houston and see how he fares. The Fins were never that bad. None of the second tier QBs on that list had QB ratings like Big Ben. Oh, and Ben hardly had a Duper and Clayton. Hines is a great possession receiver but the rest of the cast are only average or slightly better. Heath will become a monster in a few years. Cedric the Enterainer is decent but not great. El is a great utility man. He's a "Slash" that admits he isn't a starting QB even though he probably would be better at it than Korky was.
After looking at the Darrell Jackson pylon play, I agree. He was out of bounds and it was not a TD. The first Darrell Jackson TD negated by a PI was total bushleague. You don't make that call in the SB.
Regarding Worthlessberger (I don't hate him, I just like that name!), who is to say what would have happened on 4th down? I seem to recall a certain Jerome Bettis fumbling against the Colts on 4th and goal from the 1.
Jeremy Stevens catch put the ball at the 1, and anything could have happened.
What does the Worthlessberger and Stevens plays have in common? They were both decided by the officials! It the Super Bowl! Let the players decide it!
Has the NFL addressed this game yet? Its not liek only this message board is talking about it, every single one I have visited is like this.
<< <i>Ben did cross the goal . All you have to do is touch the white paint. The white line goes upward also.
While Ben was in the air, he touched the line, with the ball. While in the air, he was knocked back. Ref saw what I did.
So did replay..
>>
Wrong wrong wrong. He didn't touch the ball with the line in the air...everybody and their sister knows this, but only steeler fans seem oblivious to the fact this was a bogus call. The worst part? The ref is coming in, running with his hand pointing to the ground indicating the spot, and then, after the play is over and Ben is pushing the ball over the line, does he signal touchdown. GARBAGE.
<< <i>
The push off call, was just that. A push off. I know it happens every play, but DON'T do it RIGHT INFRONT of a ref.
>>
It wasn't a push off, and it happens on every pass...to make that call in the super bowl in front of (a supposed 90 million) watching is absolute junk.
<< <i>The better team did win the game. Big Ben is a stud. >>
No, the better team didn't win. Pittsburgh + the officials won the game. And big ben is a stud? Wow, you must have some ridiculously low expectations or quarterbacks, or do you call 2 int's, and a passer rating under 40 'stud'ly?
<< <i>
You may not be a Seahawk fan but you definitely hate on the Steelers. You must have lost a bet on them in superbowl 14. >>
No, I don't care enough for the steelers to invest any emotion, let alone hate. But they were assisted by the officials and were handed the super bowl. I know there are many bandwagon steeler fans out there who won't admit it, but the real ones know this super bowl win wasn't as sweet because of all the help they got from the refs.
<< <i>
<< <i>Ben did cross the goal . All you have to do is touch the white paint. The white line goes upward also.
While Ben was in the air, he touched the line, with the ball. While in the air, he was knocked back. Ref saw what I did.
So did replay..
>>
Wrong wrong wrong. He didn't touch the ball with the line in the air...everybody and their sister knows this, but only steeler fans seem oblivious to the fact this was a bogus call. The worst part? The ref is coming in, running with his hand pointing to the ground indicating the spot, and then, after the play is over and Ben is pushing the ball over the line, does he signal touchdown. GARBAGE.
<< <i>
The push off call, was just that. A push off. I know it happens every play, but DON'T do it RIGHT INFRONT of a ref.
>>
It wasn't a push off, and it happens on every pass...to make that call in the super bowl in front of (a supposed 90 million) watching is absolute junk.
<< <i>The better team did win the game. Big Ben is a stud. >>
No, the better team didn't win. Pittsburgh + the officials won the game. And big ben is a stud? Wow, you must have some ridiculously low expectations or quarterbacks, or do you call 2 int's, and a passer rating under 40 'stud'ly? >>
Question for you, then, supposed Bucs fan (who knows, it seems like it's Seattle, now, since they made the Super Bowl). Who would you rather have, Big Ben or Chris Simms? I thought so...
<< <i>Gemint:
After looking at the Darrell Jackson pylon play, I agree. He was out of bounds and it was not a TD. The first Darrell Jackson TD negated by a PI was total bushleague. You don't make that call in the SB.
Regarding Worthlessberger (I don't hate him, I just like that name!), who is to say what would have happened on 4th down? I seem to recall a certain Jerome Bettis fumbling against the Colts on 4th and goal from the 1.
Jeremy Stevens catch put the ball at the 1, and anything could have happened.
What does the Worthlessberger and Stevens plays have in common? They were both decided by the officials! It the Super Bowl! Let the players decide it! >>
Too bad 'D-Jack' couldn't keep his foot inbounds. Another 'almost' from another 'almost star' from UF...
I'm just kidding.
Too bad the officials didn't call an even game.
*Yawn* A wins a win, right? Personally, I'd rather have my team earn it.
yes he did.
what most saw was the 2nd effort and that showed him bringing the ball over the line. he had already crossed the plane on his initial dive.
all he had to do was have the ball above the very very very beginning of the white stripe.
Steve
Question for you, then, supposed Bucs fan (who knows, it seems like it's Seattle, now, since they made the Super Bowl). Who would you rather have, Big Ben or Chris Simms? I thought so... >>
What does that have to do with anything, sparky?
Simms played in 11 games this year, with over 2000 yards, and over 60% completion rating.
Ben's first year, he played in 14 games, with about 2600 yards, and 66% completion rating.
I am not a Seahawks fan (though I do believe Alexander is the most underrated back in the league...even with an MVP award...most fans don't give him his due), I've been a Bucs fan for a long time, and that's not going to change.
I think comparing their rookie seasons, both QBs have very, very similar numbers. I'll take Simms because he has the heritage, and is more mobile.
Ben had a bad game. Take away this game and go look at his QB rating.
Look at his wins vs. losses. The kid is 23. Yes STUD !
What about Parker's run? What about the "gadget" play?
What about the 2 missed FG's?
The team has a good record over the last two seasons, not Ben. It's a team game. He's never made one tackle, except for the ones following an interception.
Cowher is smart. He doesn't put the game in Ben's hands. He wants him to manage the game, not win it. He'll get better, but the definitely take the team on his shoulders, and he's far from the team leader.
Neither team played worth a shat. The officiating tipped the scales in Pitt's favor. Like I said, it's not how I would want to win.
<< <i>Neither team played worth a shat. The officiating tipped the scales in Pitt's favor. Like I said, it's not how I would want to win. >>
You got that right. And what the hell happened to Holmgren - did he get clock management tips form Mike Martz?
I would have loved to see the Pats take crack at either team.
<< <i>
<< <i>Neither team played worth a shat. The officiating tipped the scales in Pitt's favor. Like I said, it's not how I would want to win. >>
You got that right. And what the hell happened to Holmgren - did he get clock management tips form Mike Martz?
I would have loved to see the Pats take crack at either team. >>
Their clock management flat out sucked! I could have done better with a Swatch watch.
They do still make those things, right?
Pittsburgh's Perfect Ending
From Steel Town to Motown
A Run to Remember
* Highlight - In this one, legendary receiver Cris Carter calls the PI call legitimate. "That was the right call. Jackson pushed off to gain an advantage." By the way, Carter had picked the Seahawks to win.
Enough with the Whining Already
Steeling One: Hawks Got Robbed
" And after spending a week in Detroit, I thought the city had cleaned up most of its crime.
The first-quarter offensive pass interference called on Darrell Jackson that turned a touchdown into a field goal was robbery enough. But the fourth-quarter holding call on Sean Locklear made you wonder whether the refs had even less of Aretha's r-e-s-p-E-c-t for your Seahawks than I do."
Game's third team upstaged Steelers, Hawks
We could go back and forth and post links to infinity...the point is, that there are enough people clamoring that the officials jobbed Seattle and made a number of calls that directly influenced the game (and this isn't just coming from Seahawk fans, this is from all points not named Pittsburgh).
And an ESPN 'sports nation' poll of over 103,000 people:
Do you think officiating mistakes affected the outcome of Super Bowl XL? (103,167 votes)
61.7% Yes
38.2% No
What grade would you give referee Bill Leavy's officiating crew for Super Bowl XL? (118,130 votes)
50.6% F
24.8% D
13.9% C
8.8% B
1.9% A
(I'm guessing that 10.7% who gave them A's and B's are steeler fans)
Do you think the official made the right call on Darrell Jackson's offensive pass interference in the endzone, negating a Seattle touchdown in the first quarter? (118,130 votes)
73.8% No
20.5% Yes
5.7% I'm not sure
Do you think the football broke the plane of the goal line on Ben Roethlisberger's touchdown run in the second quarter? (118,130 votes)
59.3% No
25.9% Yes
14.8% I'm not sure
Do you think the official made the right call on Sean Locklear's holding penalty in the fourth quarter, negating an 18-yard reception to the one-yard line by Jerramy Stevens? (118,130 votes)
74.3% No
15.3% Yes
10.4% I'm not sure
You steeler fans (I'm going to call them the Stealers from now on) are in the minority on these calls, and in most of them, the VAST minority.
Just admit it - your team got tons of help from the officials, and without their errors, likely wouldn't have won the game.
Of course public opinion is currently stating they think the officiating affected the outcome. That's because ESPN has been brainwashing them for the past two days. After ESPN milks this for all the ratings they can get, they'll drop it and the casual fan will forget. That will only leave the Seahawk fans remaining. Some will come to their senses and finally admit their team didn't play well enough to win while others will continue to live in denial.
<< <i>Skip Bayless? Please. He's a complete joke. Especially when it comes to commenting on the Steelers. >>
Oh so your columns are somehow better?
I didn't realize yahoo sports was the leading sports authority...who the hell are Charles Robinson and Dan Wetzel? Cris Carter? Please, do you ever listen to his incoherent ramblings on HBO's 'Inside the NFL'? He calls the Stealers postseason the best of all time? Uhm, I see he failed to mention they beat the Bengals without their QB, no?
<< <i>
Of course public opinion is currently stating they think the officiating affected the outcome. That's because ESPN has been brainwashing them for the past two days. After ESPN milks this for all the ratings they can get, they'll drop it and the casual fan will forget. That will only leave the Seahawk fans remaining. Some will come to their senses and finally admit their team didn't play well enough to win while others will continue to live in denial. >>
So ESPN is brainwashing people now? hahahahaha
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to KNOW that the officials determined the outcome of the game...get out of that black and yellow bandwagon you've climbed on..it's apparent you're delusional.
<< <i>
<< <i>It doesn't take a rocket scientist to KNOW that the officials determined the outcome of the game...get out of that black and yellow bandwagon you've climbed on..it's apparent you're delusional. >>
Those were all legitimate penalties except for the cut block call on Hasselback. You can argue that they were minor infractions and shouldn't have been called in a game of this magnitude but you can't say they were not infractions. Unless you believe Jackson when he claims he never even touched the defender.
<< <i>About 95% of the starting QB's in the league could likely compile better stats and wins with Pittsburgh than he does. Nobody goes into their games with Pittburgh worried about him. Their running game is what's its all about and it's been like that for a while. C'mon, his rating is where it's at because he only has to throw 15-20 times a game and they're generally dink and dunk passes. If he has to throw more, it's usually a bad thing. He had a mere 17 TD's to like 9 picks this year. Not the greatest of ratios. 95% of the league would want this guy as a starter? Nah. >>
<< <i>The Steelers averaged about 3 yards per carry while knocking off the #1, 2 and 3 seeds in the AFC. Ben's passer rating was 125 in those games. He was nervous in the superbowl and played poorly. Not surprising for a 23 year old. Just as he did in the AFCC game, I expect his next superbowl will be a completely different story. >>
In the game against Cincy, Pittsburghs 3 main RB's (Parker, Bettis and Haynes) ran for nearly 140 yards and averaged 4.5 yards/carry... In the second game, they ran for 113 and averaged 3.1. The tone of the first game was clearly set by the running game, period. The second game was average for the RB's, but Ben was merely average himself throwing the ball 24 times for a little less than 200 yards (2 TD's, 1 pick, 8 yds per attempt). Ben did have a very good game against Denver. The RB's didn't have a huge impact at all, as Bettis and Parker combined for like 75 yards on 30 carries. Gotta give the D some credit in this victory too though, as they forced Plummer into 4 turnovers. The Super Bowl was mainly the RB's and we all know that. Ben sucked donkey balls and picked up about 1/3 of his paltry 123 yards on a play he threw up for grabs and was fortunate to see his WR grab.
Pittsburgh had a 10-5-1 record in 2002 with Tommy Maddox of all people, an NFL bust his entire career until he came to the Steelers. Friggin Charlie Batch was at the helm for 2 of the Steelers victories this year. I'm not saying these guys are better than Roethlisbeger because they are not IMO. I'm just saying that these guys couldn't lead most teams to a victory if their lives depended on it, but both have had some success in Pittsburgh simply because the focus of this team is not the QB position. Ben is not a first tier or a second tier QB, no matter how you slice it. He's an average QB who is flourishing in a good all-around system. Will he ever be a top caliber QB? Maybe, but he isn't now. And as far as Elway is concerned, he did struggle on and off for a bit. Believe me, nobody was going to be placing him in the HOF early in his career but some are talking as if Ben is ready to be enshrined already because HIS TEAM won the Super Bowl. People say Manning is at fault for his team losing playoff games, but there were times where his team just choked as their kicker did against Pitt this year. Manning had a similar completion percentage and yards/pass average to Roethlisberger in that game and Manning had 0 turnovers. They had a lot more penalties in the game than Pitt did as well. Overall, everyone still blames Manning for the loss though even though he had a decent game. If they had won, everyone would have said he played well because of his numbers but because they lost, he simply choked. To reverse the situation, Ben has a terrible Super Bowl. If they would have lost, he would have been the new choker for us all to laugh about. But they won by no real doing of his, and the words "he choked" are replaced with "his intangibles".
Pittsburgh has a great running game and a super defense. That will win nearly 10 games for any team. All the QB has to do, ala Ben, is not make too many mistakes. Ben is solid IMO, but if he plays the same way every year for the next 10 years and doesn't win another Super Bowl, he will not be anything close to a Hall of Fame player.
And in the spirit of the post I'll answer the question as I never really did. I do believe that he did cross the "imaginary" vertical goal line for the TD. It was close, but I do think he did. My problem was that I don't think that the ref thought he did until after he ran up onto the play. Did bad calls decide the game? No, but they likely had a factor. Was the call against Jackson a bad one? No, that's silly... I am tired of hearing people whine about that. They may not call that every time, but it is a penalty and it was called this time and there's nothing wrong with that. Sometimes refs wont call a penalty if the direct result isn't a score or scoring opportunity. In this case it was going to be a touchdown if the call wasn't made. Look at it from the other way. If the Steelers DB shoved the WR in the back so that he could intercept the ball, Seahawk fans would still be up in arms. The right call was made...
<< <i>The first-quarter offensive pass interference called on Darrell Jackson that turned a touchdown into a field goal was robbery enough. >>
So Jackson pushes off right in front of the ref and you think its a bad call. I suppose if the call wasn't made you'de be here whining that it was a terrible no-call.
The calls didn't determine the outcome of the game. If Seattle wants to find someone to blame maybe they should blame themsleves.
Perhaps if Seattle didsn't give up a 75 yard TD run and the trcik play TD they might have won but they didn't.
Regarding the Cincy game, Pittsburgh came out throwing until they established a sizeable lead. Then they turned to the run and the running game piled up big yardage as they ground out the clock. So the tone of that game clearly was not set by the running game. Like all three playoff games, Pittsburgh used the pass to set up the run. The reason Ben's numbers weren't bigger is that he barely threw in the 2nd half once they established a 10+ point lead. That's Cowher's M.O. Ben sucked in the Super bowl. No refuting that one.
Regarding Tommy Maddox, he came back to the league a different QB. He had great touch on his passes and he looked like a keeper. He put up 500+ yards passing against the Falcons and had several other strong performances in a great year. Then he got temporarily paralized on that hit in Houston and was never the same. He became a deer in headlights. After that 10-5-1 season, they went 6-10. Then they started out 1-1 in 2005 until Maddox got hurt and Ben took over. The line played poorly in 2003 and early in 2004. Ben's pocket presence and scrambling ability buys time and covers up for breakdowns in protection. Pittsburgh's line is much better at run blocking than pass blocking. Max Starks is a bulldozer in run blocking but has not yet developed the footwork necessary to be an effective pass blocker. This was apparent when that statue named Tommy Maddox filled in a few games this year.
After watching Korky Stewart continually squander great Steeler teams year after year, it's very apparent that Pittsburgh can't win with just any old QB. If Pittsburgh needs to rely on their passing game to win, I have no concerns that Ben will step up and perform. My only concern is the strength of the receiving corp. If Randle El goes, they need to replace him with a qaulity deep threat.
I agree he shouldn't be placed at the top but he certainly is in the second tier at worst. With a 100 passer rating in his first two seasons, one of the league's best yards per attempt ratings and playing through significant injuries this season, he's proven he can do more than manage a game. Cowher has gained confidence in him and is loosening the reigns on him. I'm not convinced Willie Parker can carry the team like the Bus and Duce did. I see the Steelers throwing a lot more next year.
<< <i>
Perhaps if Seattle didsn't give up a 75 yard TD run and the trcik play TD they might have won but they didn't. >>
Perhaps if the refs hadn't given the TD to ben.
Perhaps if the refs had called a fair game.
There's an overwhelming majority of people who feel the Stealers got lots and lots of help.
<< <i>Perhaps if the refs hadn't given the TD to ben. >>
It was a TD
<< <i>There's an overwhelming majority of people who feel the Stealers got lots and lots of help. >>
And some of them are know-it-all whiners like you.
Let it go.
<< <i>
<< <i>Perhaps if the refs hadn't given the TD to ben. >>
It was a TD
>>
Ben HIMSELF said he didn't get in...so shut your hole.
<< <i>There's an overwhelming majority of people who feel the Stealers got lots and lots of help. >>
And some of them are know-it-all whiners like you.
Let it go. >>
No, I won't let it go...the piss poor officitiating throughout the entire playoffs was a disgrace...and anyone who's a football fan SHOULDN'T let it go. Obviously you are just a board troll with no vested interest in football.
<< <i>Ben HIMSELF said he didn't get in...so shut your hole. >>
Funny, the interview I saw with Ben he said he did get in.
<< <i>
<< <i>Ben HIMSELF said he didn't get in...so shut your hole. >>
Funny, the interview I saw with Ben he said he did get in. >>
Yep, said it on Rome yesterday. He said when I said he didn't think he got in, it was before he saw the replay. He was commenting based on when he hit the ground, he felt he came up short (which he did). When he saw the replay, he realized he broke the plane when he initially lunged in the air.