The final fate of the infamous 1960-D "full step" Jefferson Nickel
Justhavingfun
Posts: 835 ✭
This was the ONLY 1960-D Jefferson Nickel EVER graded full steps by PCGS. It was touted as "the first $100,000 Jefferson." But I was able to buy it for lowly $9,750 ($11,212 vigorish included) because all my fellow full-step fanatics realized it wasn't really full steps.
I bought it to take it off the market. I was happy to the bury the coin in a black corner in the back of one of my safety deposit boxes. But on the suggestion of Mr. Wondercoin (who acted as my agent for this purchase) and many other forum members, I submitted it to PCGS under their down-grade warranty program.
I just received word, and PCGS agreed it was a mistake. I was told that they had every grader reexamine the coin and the NOT unanimous consensus was that it wasn't a true full stepper.
They're paying me $10,000 and returning the coin to me in an MS64 holder .
First and foremost, my heartfelt thanks to PCGS for doing the right thing.
Economically, If you look at their warranty, you see that the economics are brutal. For perhaps an $80 grading fee, they assumed a liability of $10,000. Ouch. I would never do that in my business.
But look at the economics a little deeper, and it gets worse. If they're netting 15% on their gross; they actually made 0.15 x $80 = $12 on that coin. And they're paying out 800 times more than that to back up their guarantee.
That's one of the things that separates them from -- and makes them better -- than NGC.
Second, and burn this into you memory: as good as PCGS's grading is, you can't depend on the certificate. You have to buy the coin not the certificate because errors inevitably slip through.
And if you can't see the coin yourself, you have to have it seen for you by trusted eyes. Which brings me to my third point ...
Third, if you want to bid on a coin at an auction and can't attend, get an agent.
The collector who owned the 1960-D before me, paid for $32,000 for it. He had been unable to view the coin in person because of business and personal considerations. So he depended upon the certificate. And the collector -- a true gentleman -- bought one of their errors, and suffered a $20,000 loss on the coin.
I'm NEVER able to view the coins I buy beforehand. I live in Thailand and can't fly in for a weekend show. Heck, even when I lived in the US, I couldn't fly to the weekend shows, because my family and business come before my hobby.
So I use two agents: Mitch Spivack and Warren Mills, The vigorish I've paid to Mitch and Warren to vet coins for me at auctions mounts deep into 6-figures over the years. Others might resent a vigorish like that, but to me, it's the best money I've ever spent in numismatics.
Their eyes are one of the keys that's enabled me to build a pq collection with I think it's 26 different "Best Ever" registry sets in US coins, including "Best Ever" Shield Nickels (business strikes and proofs), Jefferson Full-Steppers, Liberty Standing Quarters, and my beloved US Philippines.
If you're like me, and can't go to auctions ... but you want to build a nice collection, start doing the same. Find people who get excited at the coins that excite you and start working them. Good eyes, a knowledge of the coin market, and absolute integrity are the three things to look for.
Thanks again to PCGS for doing the right thing at considerable much cost to themselves.
Best wishes,
Just Having Fun
I bought it to take it off the market. I was happy to the bury the coin in a black corner in the back of one of my safety deposit boxes. But on the suggestion of Mr. Wondercoin (who acted as my agent for this purchase) and many other forum members, I submitted it to PCGS under their down-grade warranty program.
I just received word, and PCGS agreed it was a mistake. I was told that they had every grader reexamine the coin and the NOT unanimous consensus was that it wasn't a true full stepper.
They're paying me $10,000 and returning the coin to me in an MS64 holder .
First and foremost, my heartfelt thanks to PCGS for doing the right thing.
Economically, If you look at their warranty, you see that the economics are brutal. For perhaps an $80 grading fee, they assumed a liability of $10,000. Ouch. I would never do that in my business.
But look at the economics a little deeper, and it gets worse. If they're netting 15% on their gross; they actually made 0.15 x $80 = $12 on that coin. And they're paying out 800 times more than that to back up their guarantee.
That's one of the things that separates them from -- and makes them better -- than NGC.
Second, and burn this into you memory: as good as PCGS's grading is, you can't depend on the certificate. You have to buy the coin not the certificate because errors inevitably slip through.
And if you can't see the coin yourself, you have to have it seen for you by trusted eyes. Which brings me to my third point ...
Third, if you want to bid on a coin at an auction and can't attend, get an agent.
The collector who owned the 1960-D before me, paid for $32,000 for it. He had been unable to view the coin in person because of business and personal considerations. So he depended upon the certificate. And the collector -- a true gentleman -- bought one of their errors, and suffered a $20,000 loss on the coin.
I'm NEVER able to view the coins I buy beforehand. I live in Thailand and can't fly in for a weekend show. Heck, even when I lived in the US, I couldn't fly to the weekend shows, because my family and business come before my hobby.
So I use two agents: Mitch Spivack and Warren Mills, The vigorish I've paid to Mitch and Warren to vet coins for me at auctions mounts deep into 6-figures over the years. Others might resent a vigorish like that, but to me, it's the best money I've ever spent in numismatics.
Their eyes are one of the keys that's enabled me to build a pq collection with I think it's 26 different "Best Ever" registry sets in US coins, including "Best Ever" Shield Nickels (business strikes and proofs), Jefferson Full-Steppers, Liberty Standing Quarters, and my beloved US Philippines.
If you're like me, and can't go to auctions ... but you want to build a nice collection, start doing the same. Find people who get excited at the coins that excite you and start working them. Good eyes, a knowledge of the coin market, and absolute integrity are the three things to look for.
Thanks again to PCGS for doing the right thing at considerable much cost to themselves.
Best wishes,
Just Having Fun
Jefferson nickels, Standing Libs, and US-Philippines rock
0
Comments
So... the real question is... how much is the 60-D now?
Should we be looking for it on the bay of E?
Steve
In memory of the USAF Security Forces lost: A1C Elizabeth N. Jacobson, 9/28/05; SSgt Brian McElroy, 1/22/06; TSgt Jason Norton, 1/22/06; A1C Lee Chavis, 10/14/06; SSgt John Self, 5/14/07; A1C Jason Nathan, 6/23/07; SSgt Travis Griffin, 4/3/08; 1Lt Joseph Helton, 9/8/09; SrA Nicholas J. Alden, 3/3/2011. God Bless them and all those who have lost loved ones in this war. I will never forget their loss.
Forgive me for sounding greedy, but do you think that $10,000 was adequate compensation for the 1960-D FS ?
Since the coin sold once for $32,000 and the PCGS Price Guide lists the coin at $22,000, I think if I owned the coin, that I would have expected more. At the very least, I think PCGS should have compensated you 100% at what you just paid for the coin. If my math is correct, you sustained at least a $1,200 loss.
I think you have to take the fact that he KNEW the coin was misgraded when he bought it into account.
As he states above, the real person that got hosed was the seller. That's an expensive lesson to learn.
Maybe I'm wrong but I've never heard of NGC biting the bullet on a big ticket like PCGS just did with the 1960-D Jeff, and to judge from the modern NGC Proof 69 and 70 ultra cameos, I think they'd be in serious trouble if they did back their guarantee the way PCGS does.
But I use NGC ... I think they do just fine on the full step designation ... and I'm not anti-NGC ... and this isn't an anti-NGC thread. This is a 1960-D Jefferson Nickel thread so if you have more on NGC, please either pm me or start your own NGC thread -- and I'll be there.
Cordially,
Just Having FUn
Guys - Wouldn't this "$32,000" coin be worth at least $1,200 after PCGS removed the letters "FS" from the blue insert tag? JHF will have this coin to enjoy for that $1,200 - this coin being the second or third nicest 1960(d) nickel known. Why would that be deemed a "$1,200 loss" by anyone? I personally thought PCGS was extraordinarily fair in the resolution of this matter. I would have personally bid $1,212 on this coin if it was raw in a flip.
Wondercoin.
I'm very glad to see the PCGS backs everything up.
it certainly makes them the top service in my eyes.
Ive had them back up prints on moderns as well. I'd have rather had the coins, but they were very fair about the offer.
As for paying the $32,000, PCGS should not be liable for that, only the price the last buyer paid. If we use past prices, what about coins that sold in 1989, do we use those prices??? No. If we could go back in time, everyone would be rich, but that won't happen.
Ike Specialist
Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986
Good question, Full Step Jeffs. I'm not sure.
But I think it's the second or third best 1960-D known, steps-wise. So it's not a $50 coin. But the only way to really find out is to put it up for auction, and I think I'd rather keep it for a souvenir.
Hi Proof. $10,000 is nice round number. And remember, I got $10,000 PLUS the coin back. And the coin could easily go for a grand or more.
And then there's the psychic satisfaction I've gotten by having the coin knocked off the market once and for all. No, no: I'm very satisfied with the way this worked out.
Hello Steve:
First, I wanted that coin off the market for my own satisfaction. It embarrassed me as a Jefferson full stepper. I was willing (and did) pay the full $11,212 to do it. If you think that's funny, my wife would easily agree with you, and raise you the limit.
Second, as I explained above, the coin itself is worth a fair amount of change and if I ended up losing anything on the transaction, it isn't very much.
Yes, Trade Dollar Nut, the person who, unfortunately, got hosed was the seller. That's a shame because he's a thoughtful Jefferson full stepper and a nice person. But he was unable to attend that show and view the coin in person, and he took a big hit because of it.
Signing off now, from Bangkok ...
Best wishes,
Just Having Fun
Crazier things have happened
According to the PCGS price guide the coin is worth $15 in MS64.
Seriously, would anybody pay $1200 for a PQ MS64 .05 ??
I have no knowledge of this series, so excuse me if I am way out of line.
I had an MS64RD 1909-S/S Lincoln Labeled as "FS-012.2". I paid a premum for it because it was the highest graded known example of the much rarer RPM #1 (as opposed to the S/Horizonatal S, FS-012.3, RPM#2).
Relying on the holder and never thinking to check if NGC had made an error, I sold it on eBay for $1,500 to Lloyd Hansen. Needless to say he immidately returned it telling me what the problem was.
Unfortunately the stellar eBay seller I bought it from didn't allow returns so I sent it to NGC. They refused any financial compensation at all for their error and simply re-slabbed it with the proper designation on the holder (although for no cost to me - whooppee).
They told me point blank that the slab was of a version that pre-dated their guarantee. No other specifics on that point were discussed, offered, of sought.
I'd be very interested in a coin with so much history (and be willing to caveat with... it would never sell again as long as I was alive) and I'd think there would be others with the same thought...
Just something to think about...
Steve
In memory of the USAF Security Forces lost: A1C Elizabeth N. Jacobson, 9/28/05; SSgt Brian McElroy, 1/22/06; TSgt Jason Norton, 1/22/06; A1C Lee Chavis, 10/14/06; SSgt John Self, 5/14/07; A1C Jason Nathan, 6/23/07; SSgt Travis Griffin, 4/3/08; 1Lt Joseph Helton, 9/8/09; SrA Nicholas J. Alden, 3/3/2011. God Bless them and all those who have lost loved ones in this war. I will never forget their loss.
<< <i>Interesting story.
I'm very glad to see the PCGS backs everything up.
it certainly makes them the top service in my eyes.
Ive had them back up prints on moderns as well. I'd have rather had the coins, but they were very fair about the offer.
As for paying the $32,000, PCGS should not be liable for that, only the price the last buyer paid. If we use past prices, what about coins that sold in 1989, do we use those prices??? No. If we could go back in time, everyone would be rich, but that won't happen. >>
Yes, the seller can thank JHF for setting his loss in stone by purchasing it. No one should have bought it, and the seller should have returned it to PCGS. As for PCGS's losses, well that's the business risk that they take, and they seem to be able to afford a hit like this once in a while at their current margins. I don't think CU stock went down any after this.
There are other ways to do this in a less egomaniacal manner. You will find that PCGS is a fine company and will work with you to take problem holdered coins off the market without all the "hey look at me" hoopla we have had with this turd on a stick.
Doug:
1. Seller consigned the coin to the auction WITH NO RESERVE. If JHF had never bid, seller would have simply lost even more money on the coin - plain and simple. I never consign "four or five figure" coins to auction with no reserve. Collectors often tell me they want their coins in the auction with no reserve to excite bidding. In nearly every case, I try as hard as I can to talk them out of that approach. Do "no reserve" auctions often do quite well - of course they do. But, this coin had "history" behind it (see below) and the players for $30,000 Jeffs are obviously limited.
2. Following the first sale - there were numerous threads on the board which questioned the "FS" nature of this coin. Truly, seller had more than a year to consider his alternatives. Indeed, all he had to do was ask any number of people about the coin (myself, David Schweitz, Andy S. etc.) and we would have given him our honest opinion. Seller chose to auction it off again - sometimes that plan really pays off - all it would have taken was a new player or two seeking registry plastic (not a foreign concept) to possibly achieve another record price. This time it simply did not happen.
Wondercoin
To me this really seems like too much effort to do a good deed, what with all this paperwork and shipping back and forth. Next time you're in the mood, just send me the $10 grand. It'll be a lot less hassle and you'll be helping a poor person - which should give you plenty of warm and fuzzies.
Russ, NCNE
JHF - NGC ABSOLUTELY does guarantee copper and the color of copper.Please read their guarantee.Did PCGS write you a check or give you grading credits for $10,000 ?
TradeDollarNut - I doubt the seller of the coin who paid $30,000 for the coin got hosed.Look at the publicity that he got with a full page ad in Coin World and the attention he received having the coin in his set.I'm sure he made money on his nickels.
Stewart
So I use two agents: Mitch Spivack and Warren Mills, The vigorish I've paid to Mitch and Warren to vet coins for me at auctions mounts deep into 6-figures over the years. Others might resent a vigorish like that, but to me, it's the best money I've ever spent in numismatics.
Gosh Mitch, were you the agent Mr. JHF used to purchase this coin? If his sole purpose was to get this coin off the market couldn't you have advised him to try to contact the seller and recommend to him directly to send the coin to PCGS for review? I realize from the other thread that JHF was ignorant of the grade guarantee program at the time he purchased the coin, but I know you were not. Did you think it better to let your client flush $11k down the drain?
Honesty and integrity is doing something when no one is watching. When the spotlight is on you that's not called honesty nor integrity...that's just good PR.
Honesty and integrity would have prevailed had PCGS taken this coin off the market and refunded the then current owner the money. But had this happened none of us would have ever known about it, and this coin would not have ever been in the sale, and JHF wouldn't have had this very visible interaction with PCGS, which is GREAT for their PR.
In essence they siezed the opportunity to make sweet lemonade out of a lemon situation. I am impressed that they bought the coin -- yes -- I don't view them any more credible now that they did, though. Standing behind 1 coin here/there/every once in a while does not a guaranty make....sorry.
Wondercoin
I don't recall any one collector riding a white horse through the room and snatching the coin/gavel from the auctioneer's hand and looking for the roaring crowd to applaud his efforts. (I did see Stewart there in his orange undies, but that's a completely different story
Your last question is valid. Maybe dealers should be more concerned with the material they sell, and auctioneers with what they are auctioning, instead of substituting a certification insert for responsibility? It would be in the best interest of the collecting community if it ever happened.
If someone hired me to sell or auction a Mercedes that had a VW engine in it, I wouldn't just advertise that it was a "Mercedes" or "this car labeled Mercedes."
<< <i>Well Mitch I think both of us were in the auction room when the highly touted 63 Proof Lincoln came up. Many of us were there to watch the proverbial train wreck (as well as bidding on other coins). Collector (and dealer) outrage at the grade on the holder caused PCGS to get involved at the moment the coin hit the block, and there was "interference" with the auction. At least it stopped the madness before anyone else got hurt.
I don't recall any one collector riding a white horse through the room and snatching the coin/gavel from the auctioneer's hand and looking for the roaring crowd to applaud his efforts. (I did see Stewart there in his orange undies, but that's a completely different story
Your last question is valid. Maybe dealers should be more concerned with the material they sell, and auctioneers with what they are auctioning, instead of substituting a certification insert for responsibility? It would be in the best interest of the collecting community if it ever happened.
If someone hired me to sell or auction a Mercedes that had a VW engine in it, I wouldn't just advertise that it was a "Mercedes" or "this car labeled Mercedes." >>
I believe the 1963 proof had pictures on this website (before the auction) to back up PCGS's move back then, the 1960-D did not! I'm certain you wouldn't want to be the one riding that white horse in on the whim of a few innuendos!
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>JHF,
I'd be very interested in a coin with so much history (and be willing to caveat with... it would never sell again as long as I was alive) and I'd think there would be others with the same thought...
Just something to think about...
Steve >>
I'd be interested in the disposed 1960-D myself if it sported a strike similar to this 1958! Yes folks, it's the Philadelphia firebrand and the strike has me dance'n! It just might be a better coin than Frank Corso's!
JHF
I'm glad things worked out! It would be nice to get a quality picture up here and I could do that.
It would also be interesting to hear something from KrispyToast if he was an underbidder but he doesn't seem post here much about his collection.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
But, Leo hit the nail on the head when he said:
"I'm certain you wouldn't want to be the one riding that white horse in on the whim of a few innuendos"
Following the consignor's decision to consign the coin to an auction, execute a binding consignment agreement and watch as B&M spent thousands of dollars on advertising this coin- truly no dealer is in a position to contact the consignor (unsolicited) and advise him to essentially breach his consignment agreement and pull the coin for grade review rather than auction. And, I agree with you Doug that in the future perhaps the auction companies themselves can and should do an improved job of screening/examining coins for even more accurate lot descriptions in the first place. Wouldn't it be refreshing to see an auction company actually state in its lot description that the RD cent appears no better than RB at this time, the "FS" Jeff nickel actually just misses FS, the (1953(s)) Franklin FBL is actually a just miss which would likely never grade FBL today, etc., etc.
Wondercoin
I believe it was a political decision to take the Full Step designation off the holder.The difference between a 4 3/4 step nickel vs a 5 step nickel doesn't mean squat to ME.Its the same thing concerning a full band vs fully rounded bands Mercury dime.I also have seen the 53 s Franklin half dollars that are called Full Bell Lines.They look nothing like other dates that are called Full Bell Lines.
I can tell you another thing.PCGS WILL NEVER GRADE A 1960 D JEFFERSON NICKEL FULL STEPS.
Stewart
<< <i>Wouldn't it be refreshing to see an auction company actually state in its lot description that the RD cent appears no better than RB at this time, the "FS" Jeff nickel actually just misses FS, the (1953(s)) Franklin FBL is actually a just miss which would likely never grade FBL today, etc., etc. >>
Wouldn't it be equally refreshing to see the auction companies refuse to even auction coins that don't appear to fit the description on the slab label. Many here are quick to jump ALL OVER eBay sellers who list overgraded material and rely on the label BUT also wonder if it is ETHICAL for a respected and knowledgeable dealer to comment unfavorably and publicly about a coin up for auction. If Heritage or B&M don't think that the coin lives up to the label description then it is their duty to so advise the consignor of their opinion, and suggest to have the TPG re-examine the coin or refuse to auction it. If the consignor insists then they should state any problems in the description. But it probly aint gonna happen. Caveat Emptor rules!!
There are, however, certain instances in which I think it would be a very good idea, even if it meant possibly losing occasional consignments. Two categories that quickly come to mind are:
1)"RD" copper coins which clearly are no longer "RD" - I have seen some that were closer to "BN" than to "RD".
2) Coins of extremely high grade (perhaps MS/PR 68-70) where it appears obvious that the condition of the coins has changed/deteriorated in the holder, as in the case of noticeable spots/stains, etc. on a supposedly "perfect" or nearly perfect coin.
Pat: On this one - I actually believe Stewart is correct regarding about how long it is going to take to grade another 1960(d) in FS. And, perhaps the same thing with coins like a 1926(s) Lincoln cent in MS65RD and a 1953(s) Franklin in MS66FBL as well?
And, I concur with Mark's position as well. Bajerfan & Mark - what is often dissapointing to me is not that the auction company elects to auction off those types of coins, BUT, does so with such a glowing description, without a mention of the severe and obvious problems to the coins.
Wondercoin
I agree.
And Segoja, I agree with you too. "As for paying the $32,000, PCGS should not be liable for that, only the price the last buyer paid. If we use past prices, what about coins that sold in 1989, do we use those prices??? No. If we could go back in time, everyone would be rich, but that won't happen. "
Hello BAJJERFAN At $30 a pop, they're probably netting something like $4.00 a coin. To make back a $10,000 haircut, they'd have to do about 2,500 coins.
OOOuch RBinTex: That's one sad story about your experience with the NGC guarantee.
Dear Full Step Jeffs:
Well, I didn't really have any plans to sell it. I sorta thought that it might be an interesting coin to display, when I display my entire Jefferson Full Stepper collection. It's no longer the most valuable Jefferson nickel in the world, but it is probably the most famous.
Let me look it over again when I get back. And if I don't want to keep it, I figure Mitch (Mr. Wondercoin) has earned first dibs on it. But he's not a Jefferson collector, so he might pass.
Hello there CT Collector: I don't know what CT stands for but I'm delighted to meet another fan of "the eye." Good luck!
Gosh Russ: Whenever I stgart to get warm fuzzy feelings like that, I pinch myself and dash in for an ice cold shower.
Right on! Irish Mike. YOu're exactly right: "Never buy a coin from an auction for that kind of money regardless of what the tag says, unless you view it in person or have a knowledgeable and trustworthy dealer give you an opinion."
Dear Stewart: You know the pennies a lot better than me, so you're probably right. But I searched the NGC site for about 20 minutes and couldn't find it. If you'll send it to me, I'll take down that part of the post "as fast as you can say Jackie Robinson."
Best wishes from Bangkok,
Just Having Fun
<< <i>And, I concur with Mark's position as well. Bajerfan & Mark - what is often dissapointing to me is not that the auction company elects to auction off those types of coins, BUT, does so with such a glowing description, without a mention of the severe and obvious problems to the coins. >>
JH is sposed to be a world class grader and if he can spot the JHExceptional he can sort out the crap too. You can fool all of the collectors some of the time and some of the collectors all of the time and that seems to be good enough.
You raise some good points and I can't argue with you when you write "Honesty and integrity is doing something when no one is watching"
But I've had PCGS back up their guarantee for me once before -- and that time when no one was looking. A high-grade Standing Liberty Quarter that was in a Full-Head slab, but which wasn't a full-head. They took a fairly heavy hit on that one too.
So they've scored pretty well on their guarantee, so far as I'm concerned.
Regarding your second point: "Honesty and integrity would have prevailed had PCGS taken this coin off the market and refunded the then current owner the money. " I really think that's unfair to expect that of them. Outside of the select circle of full-step fanatics, I don't think anybody really realized that the coin wasn't a true full-stepper.
Best wishes,
Just Having Fun
JHF - Jackie Robinson You can either ask Wondercoin or e mail NGCcoin.com.FYI PCGS does almost 10,000 coins at a major show and 5,000 + coins at a lesser show @$100+ a coin.With that in mind and simple multiplication they took in almost $1,000,000 at the Florida FUN coin show.Don't worry about your $10,000.They know they did the right thing.
Stewart
I have had one NGC experience with a grade guarantee on a "high four figure" classic (Mercury Dime) coin a few years back. The coin was handled 100% professionally by NGC and a mutually agreeable settlement was promptly reached (and the coin returned to me one grade lower). I could not have asked for better service and treatment from NGC. That has been my (1) experience with NGC. I have had dozens of PCGS experiences as well and they handled each and every one of them 100% professionally in my opinion. I have only had (1) unhappy customer thoughout the years involving the PCGS grade guarantee. In a nutshell, I sold a customer some PR70DC coins for around $400/coin and, unfortunately, these coins "turned" in the holder (I sold the customer many more coins than these - it was just these that developed small spots for some reason). The customer demanded $700/coin compensation arguing to DH that I was a "wholesaler" and the customer was entitled to retail on a buyback from PCGS for this sort of problem. PCGS ended up paying the customer $500/coin to settle up (a tidy profit on some spotted PR70DC coins IMHO) and I believe the customer was truly unhappy with the outcome. Of course, even to this day, I sell the same coin for $395 (and have about (10) in stock today)- I was simply sold out at the time of the settlement talks. But, I can never say again that I have had only 100% happy customers with the way PCGS handled its settlements on its buybacks (only that in my opinion they have handled every single instance with 100% integrity).
Wondercoin
I agree in essence but not in emphasis. I think they'll never grade a 1960-D Jeff with marginal steps as a full stepper. But give them a nickel with good solid 5 and a quarter steps, I think they'll do it. Of course, I doubt such a nickel exists, but if one does, they'll do it.
Best wishes,
Just Having Fun
Boy, Bajjerfan: you've opened up one interesting can of worms.
That ad from Bowers & Merena really pushed my buttons, and spurred to me nail that embarrassing nickel slab. I wondered ... and I wonder ...
-- Did B&M just not look at the coin because they simply had too much to do for the auction?
-- Or did they look at it and decide it was okay?
-- Or did they look at it and knowing it wasn't full step, advertise it as a full-stepper anyway, because PCGS called it that?
I prefer the first explanation as the most charitable.
------
But wait a minute, a year or two ago, I had to sell a million dollars or so of coins. So I spoke with most of the major auctions houses either directly or through an agent.
One of the big boy auction houses made it part of their sales pitch, that they routinely check all the coins for potential cross-overs and upgrades.
So at least that auction house looks at all the (significant) coins carefully.
You'd expect them to find overgrades as well as undergrades, wouldn't you? And, believe it or not, I've actually seen their catalog copy draw attention to flaws. So they're NOT oblivious to the ethics of the situation.
But for the most part, you can look at a hundred auction catalogs and never see a simple statements such as: "Slabbed MS65 Red but it apparently turned in the holder. So bid on it as it it were an MS65 Brown."
Wouldn't it be nice to start seeing auction catalog copy (or eBay copy) like that? Wow, that would be revolutionary! Copy like that would begin to make a difference in numismatics. I'd love to see it, but I doubt I will.
Warm regards,
Just Having Fun
Member ANA, SPMC, SCNA, FUN, CONECA
<< <i>
One of the big boy auction houses made it part of their sales pitch, that they routinely check all the coins for potential cross-overs and upgrades.
>>
Then they stick them in a bullet sale, don't mention key aspects and the employees bid on them.
<< <i>So they're NOT oblivious to the ethics of the situation. >>
My comment was not about the ethics of a major auction house not noting flaws on coins in their listings; it was about how it is fashionable to bash eBayers here, but not fashionable to bash the big auction house listings.
I remain joined with the dissent at PCGS on the 60-D, it is a FS Jefferson. But it is still butt ugly.
That's one of the things that separates them from -- and makes them better -- than NGC.
NGC has done the same. In fact, I saw them do so just today, even though they technically had no obligation to do so.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I'm sorry, but I disagree with you. If a company is vetting all the significant coins in a consignment for upgrades, I think they have an ethical -- though not legal -- obligation to finger the obvious overgrades.
What they do with them is their business. They can either say so in the copy, or return that coin, or do something else appropriate. But to know the coin parading in an MS 67 RED holder is really an MS65 Red Brown -- and then sell it as the MS67 Red -- is sleeze at the best; fraud at the worse.
You know, in his Newsletter, Maurice Rosen was discussing (amongst dealers) why so many coin collectors think so many coin dealers are crooks. He and his dealer friends spoke pious nonsense about how 1% give the 99% of the honest dealers a bad name.
No, moral amnesia -- like this shucking off of ethical responsibility not to screw one's clients -- is why so many coin collectors think so many coin dealers are crooked. And they're correct. Many -- if not most -- coin dealers ARE crooks.
That's why when a fanatical collector like me finds a dealer who combine competence with an ethical sense, I clasp them to my bosom. They're rare -- and valuable.
Warm regards,
Just Having Fun!
I agree!
<< <i>Hi Mark:
I'm sorry, but I disagree with you. If a company is vetting all the significant coins in a consignment for upgrades, I think they have an ethical -- though not legal -- obligation to finger the obvious overgrades.
What they do with them is their business. They can either say so in the copy, or return that coin, or do something else appropriate. But to know the coin parading in an MS 67 RED holder is really an MS65 Red Brown -- and then sell it as the MS67 Red -- is sleeze at the best; fraud at the worse. >>
JHF, I don't think you do disagree with me