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Posssible forced sale of personal property, including coins, The Sequel.
SanctionII
Posts: 12,563 ✭✭✭✭✭
Funny how things repeat themselves.
On 11-28-2005 I posted a thread about a possible forced sale of personal property including a coin collection, arising from a legal dispute a client of mine is involved in.
Lo and behold, another similar case has arisen. A different client of mine bought a property at a foreclosure sale. The loan that was not being paid was taken out by the prior owner of the property. He took out the loan in the late 1980's or early 1990's. He died a couple of years ago in his late 80's. His daughter lived in the property with him before he died and lived in the property after he died. She did not make the loan payments and the property was sold to my client at a foreclosure sale. My client hired me to obtain possession of the property for it from the daughter through an eviction lawsuit in the local courts. The Sheriff's lockout took place early last month. The daughter has not made any attempt to obtain possession of any of the personal property located in the building on the real property.
Here is where it gets interesting. The real property is improved with a two story building. The botton floor is commercial space. The top floor consists of two residential units. The father owned and lived in the property for over 60 years. He was a very busy person who was involved in many different activities, including the Music business, primarily black music including jazz. He operated a music store out of the bottom floor of the building from the 1940's forward into the 80's and maybe even the 90's.
I appeared with my client today at the property to inspect same and inventory the contents. The upper floor was filled with lots of things, including books, photographs and records. The bottom floor is packed to the gills with items, most of which are related to music. Thousands of records, 33's, 45's and 78's, many of which are in their original packaging, unopened and many of which are in their origiinal shipping boxes from the record manufacturers. Old recording instruments, old musical instruments, record players, speakers, still cameras, movie cameras, photgraphs going back to the 1940's of musicians and performers. Family photos going back to the 1800's.
Boxes and boxes of paperwork, some trash, some maybe not trash. Jewelry, some costume and some the real thing. Hand and power tools galore.
And ................., coins. My client and I looked in a few places in the bottom floor. The store cash register had change in it quarters, dimes, nickles and cents going back to the 1960's. Some the clad coins looked EX-AU. Also we found and looked through some canvas coin bags and bottles containing US cents through halves of the current design (silver and clad) and older coins (buffalo nickels, mercury dimes and wheat cents) and Darkside coins. I suspect that the father collected or just accumulated over his lifetime and that his "hoard" or "pile" is located on in various parts of the building, primarly the first floor.
I have a strong suspicion that the daughter will not be willing or able to take possession of the personal property. If not, it will be sold at an auction to recover the moving and storage expenses incurred by my client. As the contents of the building are inspected and moved into storage, I have no doubt that more coins and other valuable items will turn up.
This legal matter will become very interesting as time goes on. At a minimum the music related items should be preserved and transferred to someone or to some organization that could make good use of them.
I will give further updates.
Again, very strange that within a span of 2-3 months I would be involved in 2 similar legal matters where coins and other valuable personal property may be sold at auction. I wonder if a hat trick is in the works.
On 11-28-2005 I posted a thread about a possible forced sale of personal property including a coin collection, arising from a legal dispute a client of mine is involved in.
Lo and behold, another similar case has arisen. A different client of mine bought a property at a foreclosure sale. The loan that was not being paid was taken out by the prior owner of the property. He took out the loan in the late 1980's or early 1990's. He died a couple of years ago in his late 80's. His daughter lived in the property with him before he died and lived in the property after he died. She did not make the loan payments and the property was sold to my client at a foreclosure sale. My client hired me to obtain possession of the property for it from the daughter through an eviction lawsuit in the local courts. The Sheriff's lockout took place early last month. The daughter has not made any attempt to obtain possession of any of the personal property located in the building on the real property.
Here is where it gets interesting. The real property is improved with a two story building. The botton floor is commercial space. The top floor consists of two residential units. The father owned and lived in the property for over 60 years. He was a very busy person who was involved in many different activities, including the Music business, primarily black music including jazz. He operated a music store out of the bottom floor of the building from the 1940's forward into the 80's and maybe even the 90's.
I appeared with my client today at the property to inspect same and inventory the contents. The upper floor was filled with lots of things, including books, photographs and records. The bottom floor is packed to the gills with items, most of which are related to music. Thousands of records, 33's, 45's and 78's, many of which are in their original packaging, unopened and many of which are in their origiinal shipping boxes from the record manufacturers. Old recording instruments, old musical instruments, record players, speakers, still cameras, movie cameras, photgraphs going back to the 1940's of musicians and performers. Family photos going back to the 1800's.
Boxes and boxes of paperwork, some trash, some maybe not trash. Jewelry, some costume and some the real thing. Hand and power tools galore.
And ................., coins. My client and I looked in a few places in the bottom floor. The store cash register had change in it quarters, dimes, nickles and cents going back to the 1960's. Some the clad coins looked EX-AU. Also we found and looked through some canvas coin bags and bottles containing US cents through halves of the current design (silver and clad) and older coins (buffalo nickels, mercury dimes and wheat cents) and Darkside coins. I suspect that the father collected or just accumulated over his lifetime and that his "hoard" or "pile" is located on in various parts of the building, primarly the first floor.
I have a strong suspicion that the daughter will not be willing or able to take possession of the personal property. If not, it will be sold at an auction to recover the moving and storage expenses incurred by my client. As the contents of the building are inspected and moved into storage, I have no doubt that more coins and other valuable items will turn up.
This legal matter will become very interesting as time goes on. At a minimum the music related items should be preserved and transferred to someone or to some organization that could make good use of them.
I will give further updates.
Again, very strange that within a span of 2-3 months I would be involved in 2 similar legal matters where coins and other valuable personal property may be sold at auction. I wonder if a hat trick is in the works.
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Comments
<< <i>Family photos going back to the 1800's >>
Thats a real shame. personally I hope she gets those back at least for the sake of future generations of her family. That would be extremely unfortunate for something of that value (sentimentally) to be separated from the family they belong to. Someone in my family is attempting to put together the family tree and items like that are invaluable.
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
Also, with the notion of the musical items outweighing the significance of the coins found. The 40s and 50s was the golden age of jazz - and remains an extremely collectible era. Photographs of musicians and crates of records still sealed from that time? Wow... imagine the backroom of a coin shop in the 50s just getting left alone and then rediscovered today. Plus, say nothing of their provinance, old microphones and mixing boards can easily be worth thousands in and of themselves.
*
On an interesting side note, Howard Koslow, from the Mint's Artistic Infusion Program, designed jazz album covers for Capitol Records back int he 40s.
>>>My Collection
Have a list of the coins?
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
What really interests me is the records and other music related items. I have not seen 78 RPM records since the 1960's or early 1970's. I am simply amazed at the quantity of these items.
I agree with others that it is a shame that the daughter has not acted responsibly. I met her at a court hearing. She was well dressed and polite, however, I got the sense that she was a little off beat. That is not a bad thing, since variety is the spice of life. However, my sense is that she is unwilling or unable to take care of her affairs (including preserving her father's personal possessions) or simply chooses to have nothing further to do with the real property and the personal property. Sometimes people choose to start afresh and simply walk away from their current and past life. Such choices have consequences though, and in this situation, that means a probable auction of the personal property. If it happens, I will try to find someone or some organization willing to acquire the records and other music related items and care for them so that these historic (IMHO) items are not simply thrown in the trash.
Further, if there are coins present in the personal property, I will have the opportunity to look through same. I had a blast doing so with the group of coins present in the legal matter which is the topic of my earlier thread. It still surprises me that after practicing law for over 20 years, two cases, within a couple of months of each other have resulted in the need for the removal, storage and possible auction of personal property, including coins.
Further updates will follow. If any of you know of possible contacts in the music industry that might have an interest in the music related items, please PM me with the information. Thanks, SanctionII.
If she chooses not to do so, that is her decision.
You get to store it and give legal notice to the owner to pay for the storage and pick it up.
It is different from state to state.
Several times over the years I have tried to return photos and personal records.
Every time, I was told to trash it. I stick it in a box and trash it after a year or so.
Some folks just don't care about dealing with it.
The daughter has done nothing to contact my client or me to make arrangements to take possession of the personal property.
Thus my client is continuing to move the personal property out of the real property (and into storage). Again my client purchased the real property at a foreclosure sale after the daughter failed to pay the home loan taken out of the property by her deceased father. The daughter was evicted from the real property last month by the Sheriff and left the personal property in the real property.
While moving the personal property out of the real property, my client's employees (who are doing the actual moving) have been approached by other persons in the neighborhood who have given them copies of a flyer prepared by the daughter. The flyer has been circulated by her in the neighborhood.
The neighborhood is in an older area and is very diverse with residents of all different backgrounds (ethnic, religious, etc.), including but not limited to blacks, asians and whites. My client is a corporation and the owners and employees of same are asian. I am white. The daughter and her father are/were black.
The flyer in direct, unambiguous terms claims that evil asians, assisted by evil whites, have stolen the real property and are stealing the personal property located in the real property; that it is part of an evil plan by asians against blacks; that black residents in the community should not allow this to happen; and that they should respond by killing asians in the community.
I thought the daughter was flakey, but this is downright creepy. I have heard of black racism against non blacks, but have never seen it in such an up close, personal and scary way. Hopefully everyone in the neighborhood realizes that the daughter is a flake and will simply ignore her and her flyer.
I wonder if the flyer and its distribution is a "crime" or a "hate crime" (I have always had trouble with the concept of a "hate crime" since it takes us down a path where big brother can make a person guilty of a crime simply for what he or she thinks). I also wonder how this flyer would be viewed by the local police and DA.
Further, I wonder how this type of flyer would be viewed if the "targets" of the recommended killing were black and the killers were non black. Differently, I suspect.
as a large buyer of btw and wc coinage...let me knwo if you find any....im always buying nice coins
monsterman
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
Maybe someone is talking to you SanctionII...
I mean someone from up above... and saying : "CAPITALIZE, my son.... CAPITALIZE"
Maybe you should marry the daughter
Forgive me if you don't understand my humor
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May I ask what the laws are in your state?
How long do you have to store it and what legal notice do you have to give?
Inciting someone to kill another is illegal. You should report this to local police.
Update time.
My has spent over one month (1-3-2006 forward) moving the personal property out of the real property it purchased at a foreclosure sale and into storage. My client also has been placing the personal property into boxes and performing an inventory of same. There are over 800 boxes of stuff. My client has been preparing an itemized breakdown of the time and expense it has incurred in moving storing the personal property. I should be receiving the inventory and the time and expense information shortly.
The daughter of the deceased former owner of the real property and owner of the personal property has not made direct contact with me or with my client. Instead, she called someone she went to highschool with and had not seen or talked to in over 15 years and asked that person for help. He called my client and my client gave him my #. He called me and I gave him the short version (property foreclosed on, the daughter would not move and was evicted by the Sheriff and she did not take any of the personal property with her before she was evicted). I told him to tell her to call me to make arrangements to get her belongings. He said she wants to obtain the personal belongings but that she probably does not have the ability to do so (pay for the moving and storage costs incurred by my client and have a place to move the personal property into). He said that she is a nice person, but that she has no common sense (I agree). I also told him to tell her to get a lawyer and to have that person call me to discuss.
Absent her making some contact with me or hiring a lawyer to do so, I suspect that nothing will happen other than my client's expenses will increase. I suspect that an auction will probably occur.
<< <i>Interesting. If I was you I'd stay away from personally visiting that neighborhood. At least until everybody forgets about those flyers. >>
thats very good advise carl
Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
without making good her debts.
Over 800 boxes of personal property have been placed into storage. Run of the mill household items and papers which will eventually be thrown into the trash. However, there are over 500 boxes of vintage jazz, soul and R&B records, many of which are still in the original shipping boxes from the record manufacturers.
Thus far there has been found a large bottle of coins, a can of coins and a bag of coins. I suspect that there may be additional coins spread out throughout many of the 800 plus boxes.
No contact from the daughter of the former owner of the property. My client has instructed me to proceed with scheduling and noticing an auction.
An auction has been set and has been published in the papers. The daughter of the deceased former owner of the property has called me and has demanded her property back. I will be sending her a payoff demand. Whether she pays it, who knows.
Surprisingly, the auction notice has generated phone calls. One guy called from the East Coast and he is planning on flying out for the auction since he in interested in the records. He told me a little over 3 years ago he bought another 250,000 records owned by the father out of his Chapter 7 bankruptcy. He said he found about 5% of the records were damaged to the point where they were trashed, that he sold a portion of the other records for substantially more than his bid price (enough to buy a new real property with) and is holding on to the remaining records for the future.
He said he spoke with the daughter over a year ago and wanted to buy the records my client has placed into storage. She asked if he would pay $800,000.00 for them, He said he might pay that amount, but he wanted to look at the records first to see what they were. She refused.
He said a friend of his living in No. Cal. saw the auction notice and called him about the sale. He said that word of the auction has spread throughout the collectible record community and that he and others are interested. He also said that not knowing what is in the records has made some interested buyers gun shy, yet I should expect that many persons will appear for the auction.
This auction could be very interesting and fun. However I hope the daughter pays the bill and keeps her dad's stuff. Time will tell.
Maybe Lucy will buy them all
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Can you?
hi, i'm tom.
i do not doctor coins like some who post in here.
<< <i>This type of story is depressing. >>
I wonder how many readers of this post already have a list of costs and CURRENT values that they regularly update and have available for heirs.
Or even have a current will or trust.
There IS a responsibility due from a collector of anything.
<< <i>Surprisingly, the auction notice has generated phone calls. >>
Why is it surprising? Artist and I both commented shortly after the thread began that you would probably get substantially more than your client was owed from such a sale. This hoard probably affects record collectors like we would be if it was announced that a very large hoard of BU rolls of all denominations that had been put back in the 20's, 30's and 40's was coming on the market.
As for misfortune the only person I see having "misfortune" is SanctionII's client. (The daughter could have had all the property if she had just removed it earlier before the client had to have it moved to storage.) He has had to suffer the abuse of the record store owners daughter, go to the trouble of packing up shipping and storing the contents of the shop, the legal headaches, having to set up for the auction and advertise it, and in the end I believe all he will get back are the expenses. If the law requires that he sell the material to recover his expenses it probably also requires that most of the proceeds after expenses be turned over to the owner of the property. So the daughter, if she didn't want the stuff, may be gaining most of the proceeds from their sale without having to do any of the work.
If on the other hand I am wrong and SanctionII's client can keep all the proceeds, then yes the daughter has suffered a misfortune, but one she could have avoided by simply removing the property when she was asked to.
Conder101 is correct. in his statement that my client has suffered misfortune. As far as my being surprised at the number of phone calls about the auction, well that just shows I do not have a clue about old records as a collectible and as items that have value. I learn simething new every day and that is a good thing, right?
Due to the fact that the daughter is irresponsible (she did not pay the home loan so the real property was foreclosed upon, she did not move out of the property and was evicted by the Sheriff, she did not move the personal property out of the property before she was evicted, she did not make any attempt to contact me or my client after the eviction to make arrangements to acquire the personal property before my client was forced to move it and place it is storage and only after an auction is noticed does she call me and demand the personal property believing that my client has stolen it) my client has had to incur substantial expense in moving and storing the personal property, in setting up and publishing an auction and in paying for my services.
Who knows what will happen if an auction takes place. It may be that many people appear and bid. If the bid price exceeds my client's expenses in storing and moving the personal property, my client does not get to keep the excess. The excess belongs to the daughter. The excess may be substantial. When any excess is delivered to the daughter, will she be grateful? I do not think so. She will be bitter and will claim that the entire world, including my client and myself has screwed her.
It will be interesting to see what happens. If the personal property is purchased by a records collector dealer, it will be interesting to see what the ultimate disposition of the records are and what price they bring.
<< <i>one she could have avoided by simply removing the property when she was asked to. >>
What ARE you, Conder? A "responsibility freak" er sumpin?
Oviously the cost of his time is minimal compared with the monetary value of theses items.
<< <i>Can you name me three market makers in Old Jazz and R&B records?
Can you?
In memory of the USAF Security Forces lost: A1C Elizabeth N. Jacobson, 9/28/05; SSgt Brian McElroy, 1/22/06; TSgt Jason Norton, 1/22/06; A1C Lee Chavis, 10/14/06; SSgt John Self, 5/14/07; A1C Jason Nathan, 6/23/07; SSgt Travis Griffin, 4/3/08; 1Lt Joseph Helton, 9/8/09; SrA Nicholas J. Alden, 3/3/2011. God Bless them and all those who have lost loved ones in this war. I will never forget their loss.
<< <i>just think, however, the sentimental value these items have to his daughter. >>
Apparently, none.
My icon IS my coin. It is a gem 1949 FBL Franklin.
I was and am fascinated at the nature of the personal property that my client had to move into storage. Sort of like hidden treasure or travelling back in time 30-50 years. Interesting stuff that stirs memories of the way things were from post WWII through the 1970's and 1980's.
I hope that the daugther does not lose the personal property, particularly if it has great value. Again, however she has brought this on herself.
Well I finally have the figures for my client's expenses in moving, storing and proceeding with an auction of the personal property. The daughter has called me this week demanding return of the personal property. I told her I would send her a payoff demand and that if she paid it and took possession of the personal property by moving it out of the storage units (or if she signs a rental agreement with the storage facility so that my client does not have to pay monthly storage fees) there would be no auction.
I sent the demand out today. Who knows if she will pay, but I hope she does, even if she has to borrow the money.
so we get first dibs at the loot.
Camelot
The auction is in about 2 hours. On Wednesday the daughter left messages on my voicemail stating she had signed a settlement agreement I had sent to her, had the money owed to my client and that she wanted to meet me and my client at 2:00 p.m. to pay the money, deliver the signed agreement and take possession of the personal property. My client and I met her at 2:00 p.m. and the outcome of the meeting was nothing. She had not sign the agreement, showed me certified checks, did not deliver the checks to me and demanded to renegotiate everything.
I have no clue what she will do today. However, I have received calls from across the USA and from London about the auction, including a call from a relative of our own 100Proof1957. This auction is the second in about 3.5 years. The first auction was connected to the deceased fathers bankruptcy. 250,000 records that had been stored at another building owned by the father was sold by the Chapter 7 bankruptcy trustee. The group who bought at the first auction is planning to appear and bid today.
Should be an interesting afternoon. I will give an update after it is all over (I hope it ends today with either the daughter paying my client before the auction to keep the personal property or with a sale at an auction).
<< <i>I understand the effort it must have took to package up and inventory everything. however, in your 1st post you came across as excited and almost giddy about the contents of the (rare) items. I was just trying to put myself in this womans shoes for a minute and attempting to imagine how I would feel if people I didn't know were going through my deceased fathers personal affects. The photos, boxes of old records and bags of coins appear to have a high monetary value to collectors--just think, however, the sentimental value these items have to his daughter. Why don't you assk your client to neotiate a fee for his services of packaging these items up, and the woman can pay that fee?
Oviously the cost of his time is minimal compared with the monetary value of theses items. >>
You must be a lib. Most people would have understood, by the answers to your post, that personal responsibility is the issue at hand. Mortgages don't care about sentiment. Your "victim" has been, and appears to continue to be, a flake.
Victocrat mentality, pure and simple.
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Well I am back in the office after appearing at and conducting the auction for my client. The auction was set for 1:00 p.m. I showed up at about 12:40 and meet with people interested in bidding. I qualified eligible bidders (i.e. those with money in the form of certified funds). I expected the daughter to show up early and to be difficult. She did not show up. I waited until 1:10 p.m. for her to show up. At 1:10 p.m. my client and I escorted the qualified bidders through the security gate and back to the storage units where the personal property is located. My client opened the storage units and let the bidders look at the contents of the storage units. While this was happening under my observation my client went back to the front of the complex. It was about 1:15 or 1:20 p.m. The daughter showed up along with a friend who looked about 20-25 years old (the daughter is about 45). My client told me she showed up. I went to talk with her. I told her the auction had not started and I asked her if she wanted to pay the monies owed to my client to stop the auction. I also told her that if she wanted to, she could bid at the auction. All I got back from her was grief and from her young friend, I was asked to explain the legal basis upon which my client was conducting an auction. I asked "who are you" and the daughter said "she is my representative".
I left her presence and went back to the storage units. It was about 1:30 p.m. I announced and held the auction. The personal property was sold to an outside bidder for a little over the monies owed to my client. Other bidders thought about bidding but declined. I asked them why and they said it was too risky since looking in the storage units for a few minutes did not convince them that enough records were present to give them a comfort level sufficient to justify bidding.
Unfortunate state of affairs. I will need to prepare a certificate of sale in favor of the high bidder, disburse the bid price to my client and the excess to the daughter. My client will have to change over the storage contracts if the bidder does not move the personal property to another location. I have a suspicion that the daughter will, without a lawyer, prepare and file a lawsuit for damages. I have a feeling that my dealings with the daughter are not over. She and her father have a history of filing multiple lawsuits for every misfortune that has befallen them, even if they are the sole cause of their own misfortune.
The only thing I wish I could have done was have an hour or so to look through the bottles, bags and boxes of coins that were part of the personal property that was sold (these containers of coins fit in a standard sized file storage box). I am sure most of them were circulation pieces dating from the 1940's through the 1970's and 1980's. Who knows, maybe contained in the coins are some rare "modern crap" (i.e. 1969-S double die cents).
This tale my friends must sadly or gladly (depending on your point of view) come to an end.
I must be able to see the future since my speculation in my 3-24-2006 3:03 p.m. update that the daughter would file a lawsuit seeking damages has come true.
My client forwarded to me a lawsuit filed by the daughter, in pro per (without a lawyer) suing my client, my client's property manager and my client's real estate broker to set aside the foreclosure sale of the property, to set aside the auction sale of the personal property and for damages [I am surprised that she did not sue me]. She recorded a lis pendens against the property to tie up title and delay my client's resale of the real property.
I have been defending the lawsuit for my client, its property manager and its broker. Last week the court granted a motion to expunge the lis pendens (to clear title to the real property so my client is free to complete a resale of the property). Other court hearings have been postponed since the daughter has decided that a judge in the case is prejudiced against her. She filed a peremptory challenge to the judge and he recused himself from the case and transferred same to another judge.
What a pain for my client and to some extent me (though I am getting paid for my services). Lawsuits where the other side does not have a lawyer are many times much more difficult and frustrating for all concerned.
This is an update for a thread from the past. No need to repeat what has been said before and I will give updated information only.
The lawsuit filed by the daughter dragged on through the court through most of this year. After multiple court hearings, the court removed the cloud on title to the real property the daughter recorded against it (a lis pendens). Thus my client finally was able to resell the real property late last spring. The lawsuit continued on however and the court whittled down the case to a single claim against my clients for damages on a theory of invasion of privacy.
In the early fall multiple court hearings were held at which the daughter did not show up. The judge got angry and issued an order dismissing the case completely. Notice of the dismissal of the case went out and the daughter filed an appeal (again without a lawyer). The appeal is pending, however, the duaghter has not followed the technical rules for an appeal. Thus she is in default on the appeal and I suspect the court of appeal will dismiss the appeal for failure to prosecute same.
The outside buyer who bought the records and other stuff at the auction of the personal property has kept the stuff in storage and has been slowly doing an inventory of the stuff. The buyer is interested in me helping out marketing the items to people in the music industry, including the persons across the USA and from London who called regarding the auction. If I am hired, I will get a chance to do something other than the daily grind of real estate litigation.
If I am hired by the buyer, it would be a kick to see the records and other music memorabilia sell for big bucks. Who knows, only time will tell.
Further, to keep the thread on topic, a side note on the "coins" present in the personal property is appropo. I was given a chance to look at the coins. Most were circulated and MS examples of coinage dating from the early 80's back into the 30's and 40's. A little silver and a few cents dating from the teens. Some of the early clad stuff was in nice condition. Primarily pocket change however.
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Interesting and sad chronology of events.
But what is "appropo?"
Is that a new term I never heard of related to coins?
I will feel better if it is a legal term I am not supposed to understand.