POLL: if Ray Lewis retired today, is he a 1st ballot HOFer?
zef204
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If they keep Irvin out for his drug use, then they sure as hell should keep this thug out for being involved in murder.
BINGO!
<< <i>He is a first ballot guy. In the NFL, you are judged strictly on your performance on the field. Your off the field shenanigans don't even factor in to the eligibility process. >>
Michael Irvin?
As MLBs go, he ranks along side the finest who ever played in my opinion. Butkus was arguably the greatest and only played 9 seasons himself, so longevity is not the issue when the player is above and beyond. If Michael Irvin was considered one of the greatest at his position, or the dominant offensive player of his era, he would have gotten in already. Lawrence Taylor is a prime example that off the field problems won't affect induction if the player was such a clear choice. Irvin does't have the greatest stats for his position particularly when compared to other players from his era (Rice, Carter, Brown). He will eventually get in, and is worthy, but he's not the clear cut choice that Lawrence Taylor was or that Ray Lewis is.
How about this:
Where would you rank Ray Lewis if you stacked up all the MLBs in the history of the NFL?
My personal top 5:
1- Butkus
2- Lambert
3- Singletary
4- Lewis
5- Nitschke
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Jason - I like your list.
<< <i>He is a first ballot guy. In the NFL, you are judged strictly on your performance on the field. Your off the field shenanigans don't even factor in to the eligibility process. >>
Pete Rose? Different sport, same idea.
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In baseball, they have a morality clause (dumb, yes, but it's there) that voters can invoke to preclude voting for someone they feel didn't uphold baseball's image.
Football voters are told to ignore it. But if they vote in Lewis first ballot, and they continue to snub Irvin, I'd think the anti-Cowboy conspiracy that is rumored to exist really is true.
Darryl Strawberry or Dwight Gooden's problems might compare somewhat to Ray Lewis.
<< <i>Darryl Strawberry or Dwight Gooden's problems might compare somewhat to Ray Lewis. >>
I hear ya but this is not a good comparison eiteher. Neither Doc nor Dwight had good careers after their problems with drugs. Killing someone is a lot different than drugs as well.
Actually, maybe it is a decent comparison in that the question is based on if Lewis retired today. If he never played another game after that night in Atlanta he would not have been a HOFer, no matter how dominant he was. I think that if he never plays another game from today, either nagging injury or another brush with the law, that he will not be a HOFer. If he plays 4-5 more years, ther is no doubt about it. But that is not what the question was.
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Ray Lewis was under investigation of being an accessory, not for pulling the trigger or in this case the knife. He was acquitted and so were his friends who actually were the ones charged in the crime. To my knowledge, he does not have any other negative marks on his record so I don't think its really fair to lump him in with habitual criminals like Gooden or Strawberry. He also never CHEATED or got banned for gambling like Rose..
If he never plays another down, the guy is a Hall of Famer for what he has done over his 8 year career. 5 Pro Bowls, 2 NFL Defensive Player of the Year, Super Bowl MVP...
PLUS, his career is not over..He has a hamstring injury not a torn ACL and he hasn't been in any legal trouble since being acquitted...Case closed in my opinion...
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Ray Lewis was under investigation of being an accessory, not for pulling the trigger or in this case the knife. He was acquitted and so were his friends who actually were the ones charged in the crime. To my knowledge, he does not have any other negative marks on his record so I don't think its really fair to lump him in with habitual criminals like Gooden or Strawberry. He also never CHEATED or got banned for gambling like Rose.. >>
So he is more like OJ in that respect.
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For the record, I am not a Ravens fan or particularly a Ray Lewis fan...
But the guy has been a great player. I think some people tend to overhype alot of the old HOFers, even Butkus, based on reputation alone. I am a football history buff and I've actually watched entire games with Butkus and Lambert...And the way Ray Lewis could/can run down a ball carrier or lay down a big hit, or unlike some of the other All-Time great MLBs, play pass coverage puts him in their class without a doubt.
Put all the press clippings aside and watch a great Butkus or Lambert or Singletary game and then watch Ray Lewis at his finest...Then let me know if he belongs in the HOF...
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>The man is the most dominant dfense player since LT >>
I think 2 out of the past 3 years, Urlacher has been the most dominante defensive player.
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<< <i>
<< <i>The man is the most dominant dfense player since LT >>
I think 2 out of the past 3 years, Urlacher has been the most dominante defensive player. >>
I wouldn't argue with that...But Urlacher needs some more time under his belt before even being considered a HOFer, not to mention a first ballot guy...He's well on his way to both of those things, but 6 years, 4 pro bowls, no playoff wins, no Defensive Player of the Year awards...Not as accomplished as Ray Lewis, not as dominant as Lewis on the playing field. Urlacher is probably the fatest big LB I've ever seen play, but he hasn't been the consistent shut down LB that Ray Lewis has been.
I'd put Urlacher in the Zach Thomas category right now, with the potential to be one of the All-Time greats...
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>then they sure as hell should keep this thug out for being involved in murder. >>
Exactly what was his involvement?
<< <i>
Exactly what was his involvement? >>
Come on, you could spend 10 minutes searching this to find the answers:
"Lewis's public image was tarnished, however, following a Super Bowl party on January 31, 2000, when he was arrested along with his friends Reginald Oakley and Joseph Sweeting for the murders of Jacinth Baker and Richard Lollar. Baker and Lollar were stabbed to death outside a nightclub during a fight in the Buckhead district of Atlanta. To avoid prosecution of the murder charge, Lewis copped a plea bargain wherein he pled guilty to a misdemeanor charge of obstruction of justice, and agreed to testify against Oakley and Sweeting."
He sold out his boys to stay out of jail...he was there, he was involved, and was as guilty of the two he sold up the river. Pretty funny he tries to portray himself as this tough guy, but when push came to shove, he was a little b***h who cried uncle and gave up his friends.
So you hate him because he testified against theses two guys to avoid going to prison for the rest of his life?
Who did the actual killing? I'm guessing if it was Ray Lewis they would have offered some sort of deal to the other guys.
He was an accessory AFTER the fact...Not sure how that makes him as guilty as the guys who actually committed the murder...Then in another sentence Axtell, you are basically dogging him for telling the truth even though it meant ratting on his friends...I guess Lewis can do no right in your eyes, and its too bad. He's truly one of the great players of the last 10 years, and if you havent watched him because you hold some sort of grudge because of his off-the-field issue, youve really missed a great career.
He was no Pete Rose, no OJ, not even Jamal Lewis who was convicted of drug charges...He was at a club with a posse of guys who got in a fight and ended up committing murder. He then kept silent because he didnt want to rat on his friends, but eventually told the truth and did the right thing.
There are MANY players in the league right now who have done far worse than what Lewis did..And there is absolutley no way it will keep him from going to the HOF...
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Ray Lewis didn't kill anybody. He was in the wrong place at the wrong time and if he did anything wrong it was NOT rat out his boys right off the bat..He kept quiet until he was threatened with bogus charges... >>
Bogus? If they were so bogus, then why did he talk then? He copped a plea that got him out of murder charges.
<< <i>
He was an accessory AFTER the fact...Not sure how that makes him as guilty as the guys who actually committed the murder...Then in another sentence Axtell, you are basically dogging him for telling the truth even though it meant ratting on his friends...I guess Lewis can do no right in your eyes, and its too bad. He's truly one of the great players of the last 10 years, and if you havent watched him because you hold some sort of grudge because of his off-the-field issue, youve really missed a great career. >>
I didn't contradict myself...simply saying that he wanted to be the thug, then when things got real, and he was facing life in jail, he turns state and rats out his 'friends'. If he wasn't there, if he wasn't an accessory, then how did he possibly testify?
Missed a great career? Hardly...I prefer to enjoy the careers of those who hold themselves in a professional and LEGAL manner off the field as much as on. Ray Lewis should be locked up, not getting HoF consideration.
<< <i>I prefer to enjoy the careers of those who hold themselves in a professional and LEGAL manner off the field as much as on. >>
Like your hero, Pete Rose?
But he didn't break the law...last time I checked it was legal to gamble in this country...and it's people like YOU who equate gambling with murder that have kept him out of his deserved place in the hall of fame.
I'll ask you this: would you want your kid growing up idolizing Ray Lewis?
<< <i>But he didn't break the law >>
I didn't graduate from an Ivy League Law School but I believe Tax Evasion is against the law.
Maybe you should use that "power of the internet" and do a search yourself and find out the facts before making assumptions. His testimony is there for all to see.
Lewis' only crime was NOT ratting out his friends right away. His other mistake was hanging out with "thugs" from his old neighborhood. He didn't commit any murder, he didnt wield a knife or hold anyone down to be knifed or even see the actual act happen. So please let's stick with the facts here and when you want to expres your OPINION, lets please reflect that it is an opinion on your part and not fact. Calling Lewis a murderer is an egregious mis-statement.
Rose on the otherhand admitedly bet on baseball while managing a MLB team and went to prison for tax evasion. He actually was the perpetrator of a physical crime, unlike Lewis who didn't even physically witness the crime.
Ray Lewis= Hall of Famer...
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
it seems as though you have said you are not a Lewis fan and hardly like him. I don't buy that for a minute. You were only stating that to try and give more credibility to your argument for sticking up for him.
<< <i>He was no Pete Rose, no OJ, >>
OJ? OJ didn't do anything wrong!!!! He wasn't even in the wrong place at the wrong time as he was found innocent? I am not sure why you would say OJ was worse than Lewis when the courts found OJ innocent and Lewis spent months in jail for actually being somehow, if nothing more than being there and knowing the guys who committed murder!
Lewis' character aside, which is and always will be tarnished from this ugly incident is not going to keep him out of the hall. I do however believe that if Lewis retired today, he may not get into the hall. 5 great seasons compared to others that are in and have had 8-12 great seasons does not match up. He likely will not retire today, and will probably have at least 3 more good seasons, now that he is in his 30's he probably will not be quite the killer(no pun intended) he was the last 7 years. But those 3 good seasons will give him the 8 strong and likely make him a 1st ballot guy.
The game has changed since the days of Butkus and even Hendricks and Ham. These guys did a lot more pass coverage and therefore have far better pass d stats and tons more INTs. Since the game has changed I am not sure if saying Lewis is a better run stopper has much merit as he is called on that far more than his predecessors.
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I am a football fan. I'm not from Baltimore and the only Ray Lewis card I own is his Bowman's Best rookie.
I just don't like see a great player get railroaded by people posting false info. OJ was tried on murder charges, Lewis was not. OJ was accused of weilding a knife and killing 2 people, Lewis was not. My point was that some here are trying to paint Lewis ina VERY negative light. And based on everything I've read about the case, that just isnt a fair assessment. No he isn't Tom Brady, but he isn't a convicted felon/murderer either.
The title of the post was "If Ray Lewis retired today, is he a first ballot HOFer?" And you are right in a sense that his MINOR off-field transgretions will have ZERO bearing on his ability to be elected. So why do we have people in here calling him a murderer when that is totally 100% not true? He will be a HOFer, he does belong on the All-Time Defense set as one of the greatest defensive players to ever line up at MLB. That's the context behind why this post was started, correct?
He's played 10 seasons, and had 5 Pro Bowl years to go with 2 NFL Defensive MVP awards and a Super Bowl MVP. 2 of those seasons he was injured, the other 3 seasons he played on a Pro Bowl level. But making the Pro Bowl in the current setup is much more difficult than it was during Butkus' days.
Dick Butkus (the greatest MLB ever IMO) played 9 seasons, and had 8 Pro Bowls. BUT 5 of those 8 Pro Bowls were in the 60's meaning there was an AFL Pro Bowl team and an NFL Pro Bowl team with an East and West contingent for both leagues. For example in 2005 there are 10 LBs in the Pro Bowl. In 1968 there were 17. Not to say Butkus wasn't deserving, but Lewis had to break into that 5 LB rotation. Its tougher for rookies to make the Pro Bowl these days when the spots are more limited. So he could easily have 7 Pro Bowls by now if he were playing in the 60's.
I've said my peace on Lewis, and I will defend any great NFL player if necessary.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
And is there a person alive who hasn't fudged the numbers on their tax returns?
I find it annoying that someone is equating a murder charge with a tax evasion charge. I also found this quote to be deeply disturbing:
<< <i>I've said my peace on Lewis, and I will defend any great NFL player if necessary. >>
So where's your defense of OJ? He wasn't found guilty, and he was a great NFL player.
Also, tax evasion and "fudging" numbers is an actual physical commision of a crime..So is calling a bookie and making bets on MLB while being the manager of a MLB team..Ray Lewis didn't do anything but stay quiet about what his friends did...Even though he didn't even see them do it...Even so, I think Pete Rose SHOULD be in the Hall fo Fame based on what he did on the baseball field...The Hall of Fame (of any sport) should be based purely on what the guy did on the playing field, NOT what a guys personality is or what he may have done off the field...
Are we still going to spin this as if Ray Lewis was the guy weilding the knife? Gimme a break...
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>
So is calling a bookie and making bets on MLB while being the manager of a MLB team >>
No it's NOT a crime...it's against the rules of MLB, but NOT A CRIME. Why do you continue to try to intertwine the two?
<< <i>Ray Lewis didn't do anything but stay quiet about what his friends did...Even though he didn't even see them do it. >>
So he stayed quiet about something he didn't see? But when he was charged with murder, suddenly he remembers everything?
<< <i>
Are we still going to spin this as if Ray Lewis was the guy weilding the knife? Gimme a break... >>
Were you there? And let's not say 'he wasn't found guilty'. OJ wasn't found guilty, but you and I both know he did it.
Unless he was placing bets in Vegas I believe placing a wager is a crime. Obviously not in the same ball park as murder or tax evasion, but it is a crime.
You might want to think once in a while before you type.
Why are you such a Pete Rose apologist? Did he wink at you when you were a kid or something?
<< <i>"No it's NOT a crime...it's against the rules of MLB, but NOT A CRIME. Why do you continue to try to intertwine the two?"
Unless he was placing bets in Vegas I believe placing a wager is a crime. Obviously not in the same ball park as murder or tax evasion, but it is a crime. >>
Actually there are legal 800#'s and websites to place bets at will.
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About as ridiculous as your posts, jr. Maybe *you* should try using that 'preview' button before you hit post. Just a thought.
<< <i>Actually there are legal 800#'s and websites to place bets at will. >>
Don't try using logic with him....he's about as unreasonable as softie and spammy.
§ 2915.02 Gambling.
(A) No person shall do any of the following:
(1) Engage in bookmaking, or knowingly engage in conduct that facilitates bookmaking;
(2) Establish, promote, or operate or knowingly engage in conduct that facilitates any game of chance conducted for profit or any scheme of chance;
(3) Knowingly procure, transmit, exchange, or engage in conduct that facilitates the procurement, transmission, or exchange of information for use in establishing odds or determining winners in connection with bookmaking or with any game of chance conducted for profit or any scheme of chance;
(4) Engage in betting or in playing any scheme or game of chance as a substantial source of income or livelihood;
(5) With purpose to violate division (A)(1), (2), (3), or (4) of this section, acquire, possess, control, or operate any gambling device.
Just because the company that runs the 800 gambling number says its legal doesn't make it so.
"“The most important question being asked about online gambling is: ‘Is it legal to run a sports betting operation offshore and take action from clients in the United States?’ The US government will argue it is not legal. However, no bills have been passed to prevent such activity; and in recent years attempts to pass bills of this nature have failed,” explains Chris Costigan, sports gambling analyst and president of Gambling911.com, the industry’s premier sportsbook watchdog site.
Costigan continues on, “The Federal government has placed much of the responsibility of gambling legislation in the hands of individual states, some of which have considered legalizing online gambling (North Dakota voted on legalizing online poker within the state, but that bill failed to pass). Some states, like Illinois, have added legislation that strictly prohibits the advertising of online casinos. Only three states - California, Louisiana, and Nevada - strictly prohibit its citizens from betting beyond state borders. However, such laws are historically loosely enforced. Most states consider gambling violations misdemeanors with the vast majority focusing specifically on operators as opposed to the actual gamblers themselves.”
To avoid breaking US law, most internet sportsbooks are located offshore in foreign countries and also house their computer servers there."
I guess you should have looked a little harder?
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Based on that along with your "agenda" of pushing the merits of Pete Rose belonging in the HOF, I think you just have sour grapes because Rose has been persecuted for his actions and Ray Lewis has gotten off virtually scott free....
Pretty much kills your credibility on this issue...
Rose belongs in the HOF just as much as Ray Lewis does..Both were/are all-time great players, both are better than other players at their same positions that are already in their sports HOF. Pretty simple to see, so I really don't understand your propensity to hate Ray Lewis yet support Pete Rose...
Lets hope they both end up where they belong...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Axtell, you actually read the facts that came surrounding the Ray Lewis ordealand still posted what you posted? WOW
Based on that along with your "agenda" of pushing the merits of Pete Rose belonging in the HOF, I think you just have sour grapes because Rose has been persecuted for his actions and Ray Lewis has gotten off virtually scott free.... >>
No sour grapes here...just I find it unjust that Rose is villified while Lewis is claimed as a hero. I wonder, though, if Rose had been playing, did his jail time, then came back and played if that would have overcome his negative publicity? Probably...people only care when their players are producing on the field.
<< <i>
Pretty much kills your credibility on this issue...
>>
Maybe in your eyes...but I find it frightening that you're willing to defend ANY athlete (your own words)...so I am still waiting to hear your defense on OJ. He's in the SAME exact boat as Ray Lewis...no guilty plea on either side, so they must both be innocent right?
<< <i>
Rose belongs in the HOF just as much as Ray Lewis does..Both were/are all-time great players, both are better than other players at their same positions that are already in their sports HOF. Pretty simple to see, so I really don't understand your propensity to hate Ray Lewis yet support Pete Rose...
>>
Uhm because Lewis was an accessory to a MURDER and he should be in jail, instead of earning millions? Does anyone need a degree in criminal justice to see what would have happened if this was some poor schmoe who was in his shoes? You and I both know he'd be rotting in jail.
Jason >>
BUT, he still belongs in the HOF based on what he did on the field. Even if he were found guilty and served time, he would belong in the HOF based on the player that he was.
Pete Rose was treated the way he was treated because he would not admit to his gambling for years and years...He is by all accounts a scum bag, and very disliked by many of the baseball big wigs. Is it fair that he is not in the HOF? Absolutely not, ive said this many times, which is consistent in my opinion that NO player should be held out or disbarred from the HOF ONLY because of something he did off the field...
You on the other hand are an advocate of Pete Rose in the HOF, but against Ray Lewis in the HOF because of something that happened off the field? If you don't think Lewis is a HOFer because he hasnt done enough on the field, then I can repsect that...But saying he should be in prison and not in the HOF,but that Pete Rose did no wrong and deserves to be in the HOF is very contradictory...
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>
Uhm because Lewis was an accessory to a MURDER and he should be in jail, instead of earning millions? Does anyone need a degree in criminal justice to see what would have happened if this was some poor schmoe who was in his shoes? You and I both know he'd be rotting in jail.
>>
Could you please enlighten me exactly what you mean by "accessory to a murder"? There are 2 types as Im sure you know, and one is VERY different than the other...Accessory AFTER the fact is alot different than aiding another person in the commission of a murder. Are you actually saying that he aided or helped to kill these 2 people?
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
The original argument you made was that Pete Rose never broke any laws. I pointed out that he did break the law by committing tax evasion. Conclusion. Axtell was wrong, Pete Rose did commit a crime.
Your second argument was that placing a sports wager wasn't a crime. Of course everyone and there brother can figure out that back when Pete Rose was placing bets in Ohio when he was the manager of the Reds, he was breaking the law. You then try and take the argument to online gambling. How did we go from Pete Rose betting on Reds games in the 80's to online gambling today? I'll tell you how we got there, because you can't admit when you're wrong. Instead of admitting it you take the argument off on some tangent and make yourself look like a fool (which isn't hard to do).
So you're wrong, do us all a favor and admit it. I know you won't admit this because you can't. You're to narcissistic to admit when you're wrong.
Apology accepted.
Pete Rose wasn't arrested for gambling now, was he? Or did you leave that convenient fact out of the equation? Since it apparently flew over your head, I'll sumise for you:
Pete Rose isn't in the hall of fame for doing something that he wasn't arrested for (they claimed he gambled, never proven, but it stuck anyways).
Ray Lewis shouldn't be in the hall of fame for being an accessory to murder (i.e. he was there when 2 people were killed), but he copped a plea and turned states to avoid jail time.
I find it curious that you villify Rose and his gambling (or was it tax evasion? you're all over the place, it's hard to pinpoint where you stand), but Ray Lewis is a fine upstanding citizen because he wasn't found guilty!
What's next, you having an OJ poster on your kid's wall...hey, he was acquitted!!!
As far as the apology, ok ok I'm sorry you're such a moron.
Try harder next time..this is like boxing with a 6 year old!
<< <i>Pete Rose wasn't arrested for gambling now, was he? >>
You never said anything about him being arrested. All you said was he never committed a crime. Once again you're wrong.
<< <i>(they claimed he gambled, never proven, but it stuck anyways). >>
Never proven other than his admission.
Have fun at the next Rose signing. I'm sure you'll be all over him.
I think Rose was a hell of a player who wasn't the sharpest knife in the drawer, who, after his playing days were done, needed an adrenaline boost. Not justifying gambling on his own games, but I don't think it makes the man the devil.
Giamatti wanted a way to go down in history, so he went on a witch hunt for Pete Rose.
Rose should be in the hall of fame...ray lewis should not. Obviously you disagree, but you can't admit that 2 people can have 2 different opinions.
I think he was a hell of a player too. I liked the Big Red Machine including Rose. I just think he got what he deserved. I couldn't care less about Ray Lewis being int he HOF. I just find it strange why you care so much.
Well,
The poll shows 18 for and 10 against Ray Lewis getting in should he stop today. I don't think it would be a slam dunk as some members thought.
So those of you who think Ray Lewis, if he retired today would be in the Hall, should Terrell Davis be in? He was the best in the game for his 5 years.
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Terrell Davis is a harder sell...He plays a stat driven position, he's not among the greatest of all-time at his position, and was only a DOMINANT player for 3 years, not 5..(96-97-98)..He does have the 2,000 yard season, MVP award, Super Bowl MVP so its not totally out of the realm of possibility that he will get in. He's definitely NOT a first ballot guy, but I think he will at LEAST have a chance at getting in. Persoanlly I dont think he belongs. 3 years just isnt enough, he wasnt Gale Sayers talented, he was more of a Curtis Martin type talent but with alot less yards and alot less dominant seasons.
I think an even better player to question is Tony Boselli. He WAS the dominant Left Tackle of his time, and played as well as anyone who ever played the position. He went to 5 straight Pro Bowls and would have been an easy first ballot HOFer if he hadn't been injured. But only played 7 years and when you compare him to other HOF O-Lineman, the only comparison is Dwight Stephenson who played 8 seasons and also went to 5 Pro Bowls. He had to wait a few years of eligibility before getting in (6 years) but eventually got the votes because he was considered to be one of the greatest centers to ever play...
I think Davis does not belong simply because you have to compare him to others who played his position. Davis was not Barry Sanders or Gale Sayers talent wise..He also only had 3 great years, which I dont think is enough when you compare him to the other RBs in the HOF.
I think Boselli DOES belong in the HOF. He was THE #1 Tackle for his 5 year run, and arguably one of the top 4-5 to ever play talent wise. he was often compared to Anthony Munoz who by most accounts was the best Tackle to ever play the game.
Anyway, thats just my opinion of course, which counts ZERO towards guys getting elected..lol..If it did Art Monk and Ray Guy would have both been elected years ago.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.