Two Early Half Dimes - One Was Graded, the Other Got a Body Bag. Which One Got the Shaft?
BillJones
Posts: 34,554 ✭✭✭✭✭
When I started to build my collection of early half dimes in the mid 1970s, there were no slabs and not grading services. All a collector had was their experience and their brain. About three years ago I started to get the collection graded. These two were the last to go in because I thought that they were marginal and stood a chance of getting the dreaded body bag. NGC graded one, but rejected the other. Would care to speculate why the 1800 was graded and the 1796 was not?
The 1796 half dime is a very scarce critter. As a date the 1796 is scarcer than the 1794 in all grades, and the estimated total mintage of the 1794 is only about 7,700 pieces. There are two varieties of 1796 half dimes, and one die state that have made it to the Red Book. There is some confusion between the so-called normal date and the 1796 over 5 varieties. The “normal date” has a recut “6”, which could misinterpreted as an overdate. The 6 over 5 on the overdate variety is very subtle and not easy to see. The easiest way to tell the difference is on the reverse. On the overdate there is a berry under the “E” in “UNITED.” On the “normal date” the berry is under the “D.” The so-called “LIKERTY” variety is just a die state in which the bottoms to the “B” filled in to resemble a “K.” To me it’s no great shakes. My coin is an intermediate die state of this.
The 1800 “LIBEKTY” half dime is also somewhat scarce, but not as tough has the either of the 1796 varieties. The “K” is the result of a broken letter punch for the “R”, which was broken at the top. There has been a very nice picture of this oddity published in many editions of the Red Book.
The 1796 half dime has VF sharpness, but it has three marks where someone tested it with their teeth. There are two marks on the obverse and one mark on the reverse. The coin has no other defects.
The 1800 half dime is an AU coin that was stuck from damaged and worn dies (a late die state). There is a small cud to the right of the date, and there is a large die injury on the reverse where the eagle’s beak meets the scroll that reads, “E pluribus unium.”
The 1800 half dime has two big scratches. There is a very old one on Ms. Liberty’s cheek, and there is a newer one in the field and below and in front of her nose. Both are more obvious when you see the coin in person than they are in this photo.
So why did the 1796 get the body bag while the 1800 got a slab? I'm still scratching my head, especially when I look at some of the stuff that get into PCGS and NGC slabs.
The 1796 half dime is a very scarce critter. As a date the 1796 is scarcer than the 1794 in all grades, and the estimated total mintage of the 1794 is only about 7,700 pieces. There are two varieties of 1796 half dimes, and one die state that have made it to the Red Book. There is some confusion between the so-called normal date and the 1796 over 5 varieties. The “normal date” has a recut “6”, which could misinterpreted as an overdate. The 6 over 5 on the overdate variety is very subtle and not easy to see. The easiest way to tell the difference is on the reverse. On the overdate there is a berry under the “E” in “UNITED.” On the “normal date” the berry is under the “D.” The so-called “LIKERTY” variety is just a die state in which the bottoms to the “B” filled in to resemble a “K.” To me it’s no great shakes. My coin is an intermediate die state of this.
The 1800 “LIBEKTY” half dime is also somewhat scarce, but not as tough has the either of the 1796 varieties. The “K” is the result of a broken letter punch for the “R”, which was broken at the top. There has been a very nice picture of this oddity published in many editions of the Red Book.
The 1796 half dime has VF sharpness, but it has three marks where someone tested it with their teeth. There are two marks on the obverse and one mark on the reverse. The coin has no other defects.
The 1800 half dime is an AU coin that was stuck from damaged and worn dies (a late die state). There is a small cud to the right of the date, and there is a large die injury on the reverse where the eagle’s beak meets the scroll that reads, “E pluribus unium.”
The 1800 half dime has two big scratches. There is a very old one on Ms. Liberty’s cheek, and there is a newer one in the field and below and in front of her nose. Both are more obvious when you see the coin in person than they are in this photo.
So why did the 1796 get the body bag while the 1800 got a slab? I'm still scratching my head, especially when I look at some of the stuff that get into PCGS and NGC slabs.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
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Comments
I would have guessed the opposite judging from the coins, however...Mike
I didn't realize that I had goofed this up until I really looked at the photos. The only pre-slab photo I have of the 1800 is a slide, and I can't make that into that great of a picture.
Let's change the question? Would you care to speculate why the 1800 was graded, and the 1796 was not?
The toothmark you mentioned looks like the beginning of a hole on the reverse, and I'd imagine could easily be mistaken for such.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
<< <i>The top one was BAGGED. It looks to have been cleaned IMO. >>
Nope. the coin was not cleaned or polished, and it did not get bagged for that. The box checked was "damaged."
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
Both are relatively problem-free for the series, and should have been graded. Is the 1796 coin slightly bent from the tooth testing? That might explain the bagging. But I suspect it is not bent.
It just gets on my nerves when you see coins with major problems that get into slabs.
I spotted a 1796 in an AU-55 hold on eBay. It did not sell, and I asked the seller if I could see it in person at a Baltimore show. He said, "Yes," and I saw it. The coin had been polished and recolored, and yet it was in a major service's holder. And oh yes, the asking price was higher than MS-60 bid.
The services know the difference beween original and "processed." I known because I have purchased original coins in the holders. It's just that sometimes it looks as if "some pigs are more equal than other pigs," to use some language from Orwell.
Today, even though the TPG's are no longer as concerned about sight unseen trading, the overall grading philosophy remains.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Why did one get graded and one not? I would say a whim...the grader had a bad day? The coin was compared to the other you sent?
God only knows. Why does a coin that is bb'd once come back in a holder the next?
I would send the coin to PCGS. They are a bit more realistic sometimes on slightly damaged early coinage.
John
siliconvalleycoins.com
May be NGC just wants more $$$ that you will re-submit it
Aren't all grading standards and practices ambiguous?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I'd buy that for my type album, even though I already know it was bagged. That's a nice looking coin.
The puncture wounds by the 2nd right star (or however you number them) and above the eagle's left wing on the 1796 caught my eye before the scratch on the 1800. Perfect example of why some non-problem free coins deserve to be in holders.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
original. Maybe next to the 1800 it didn't quite measure up. When graders look at a 1000 modern proofs then have to seen a pair of 18th cent. half dimes, they may goof up. And giving them a comparison coin probably hurt your case in this instance. On resubmittal you would likely get a grade.
I had a similar seated half with a lightly scratched hidden area where someone tried to remove something. It was very minor. But that coin got graded MS62-63 as well as body bagged on 4 submissions. NGC body bagged it as well as the 62 grade. PCGS was more forgiving for the overall "MS64" look to the coin and graded it 63. "One submission does not a grade make."
roadrunner
<< <i>Both should be holdered, as they are wonderful, historic coins. Being a tpg, and having an ambiguous policy about bodybagging coins like these is just stupid... >>
The 1796 is so rare even if it's slightly tooled (like a few certified NGC 1794 Dollars) it should be holdered. The only question in my mind is if the President of NGC should review the coin and refund your fees in full for such a screw up (and an apology would be nice too)-- What a stupid waste of your time!
For the record the two coins were submitted about two years apart so there was no comparison to be made.
So far as marks go I once had on consignment a Bust Dollar that was in a PCGS EF-45 holder. The coin had initials in the obverse field. They were light, but obvious enough that an experienced dealer spotted them from two feet away when he looked down at my case. I knew about them too and only had the coin out as a favor to a supplier. I told him when I took "on the arm" that there was little chance that I would sell. His explaination for the grade was that the coin was an AU with initials that PCGS had net graded it. To me it had EF-45 sharpness with initials added at no extra charge.
Another time I got stuck with an 1807 quarter in a PCGS VF-30 holder that had been scratched extensively. The customer wanted the coin raw so I cracked it. I was amazed to find that the coin had been graded despite the fact that had it had been polished and artificially toned. That was why the holder was scratched. It taught me a valuable lesson. Never trust the TPG services.
This is the reason why I rate consistency so highly from TPGs. After you get done paying $30 for the slab plus $10+ for shipping, getting back a unwarranted body bag, it does nothing for customer goodwill. But you can't fight city hall. You just take the crap from the TPGs, but there no reason why we have to like it.
To top it off NGC puts on note on the body bag that you can send the coin back so that it can go into their crummy NCS holder. When in pigs fly!!!