In God We Trust................... Should it really be retained????
keets
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Why does everyone get so whipped up into a frothy frenzy about the prospect of this motto being removed from our coinage??? It's as if collectors should turn up their noses to pre-Civil War coinage that hadn't yet had the motto added, yet they seem to embrace these supposed "atheistic" coins. What's up with that???
If our Founding Fathers, who were certainly more in tune with the fledgeling country's religious/spiritual sentiment then we in the present day could ever hope to be, thought it unnecessary or unwise to add a motto initially to our coinage, why was/is it such a good thing today when the country as a whole is less religious/spiritual than 200+ years ago???
In the big picture, do you really think having the motto In God We Trust on our coinage symbolizes anything more about us as a nation than not having it would symbolize?? Personally, I think the national physche is a bit out of joint about the whole thing and in reality is more upset about the prospect of change. Put another way, if the motto wasn't there now, the prospect of adding it would be just as controversial as the thought of having it removed is proving to be.
I find it rather ironic that many who get so jacked around about the motto being removed also seem to be totally ignorant about the other symbolic devices on our coinage. Also, why doesn't anyone clamor about the minor coinage that doesn't have the motto in place having it added??? Probably that prospect of change again, but who knows.
Al H.
If our Founding Fathers, who were certainly more in tune with the fledgeling country's religious/spiritual sentiment then we in the present day could ever hope to be, thought it unnecessary or unwise to add a motto initially to our coinage, why was/is it such a good thing today when the country as a whole is less religious/spiritual than 200+ years ago???In the big picture, do you really think having the motto In God We Trust on our coinage symbolizes anything more about us as a nation than not having it would symbolize?? Personally, I think the national physche is a bit out of joint about the whole thing and in reality is more upset about the prospect of change. Put another way, if the motto wasn't there now, the prospect of adding it would be just as controversial as the thought of having it removed is proving to be.
I find it rather ironic that many who get so jacked around about the motto being removed also seem to be totally ignorant about the other symbolic devices on our coinage. Also, why doesn't anyone clamor about the minor coinage that doesn't have the motto in place having it added??? Probably that prospect of change again, but who knows.
Al H.
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I think the controversy is really why the motto would be removed. We are reluctant to change and maybe we're underestimating how reluctant we are to change. I agree w/ you , Al.
The more I think about it, I wouldn't be too offened if it was removed. I don't need a coin to remember the important things.
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interesting.......................so how do you feel about the way that it was added in the first place???
<< <i>"In God We Trust" is a national motto of the United States of America. It was so designated by an act of Congress in 1956, but did not supersede "E Pluribus Unum," which is still in frequent use. >>
<< <i>The most common place where the motto is observed in daily life is on the money of the United States. The first United States coin to bear this national motto was the 1864 two-cent piece. It did not appear on paper money until the 1950's. >>
I figure this is pretty much going OT fast, so I say : No Comment.
"The silver is mine and the gold is mine,' declares the LORD GOD Almighty."
">"http://www.cashcrate.com/5663377"
not interested in the arguement at all.
the motto was added, as i understand it, because a minister sent a letter to Salmon P. Chase requesting to have something added to our circulating coinage to express the national sentiment and help to heal the nation after the Civil War. the Mint Director was then instructed to do so. i think that's relevant to the quote from GoYankees which i highlighted. as a matter of fact, the process which would be required to remove the motto would be more proper than the process which established it, the 1956 Act notwithstanding.
ChangeIn History seems to have "gotten" what i was hoping to get in the way of discussion, while you "missed" it, most likely due to the whipped up sentiment that drives this issue and makes it so sacred to so many.
also, please don't pre-suppose anything about me just because i started a thread about a touchy issue. you'd probably be wrong every time.
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That seems to have taken God and Christ out of day to day life.
It's okay to have things be equal, but when they are so equal in one direction that it's no longer acceptable to the other direction, people begin to take offense.
I think taking God off coins is the last straw that most (not all) people are just not ready to accept.
If you believe in a particular god and that helps you get through life, wonderful. I really doubt you are so insecure in such faith that you require continual reminding in your money. If you are a "fisher of men" and your faith expects you to proselytize to the masses, put a fish on your car. It is not the job of the US Mint to proxy that for you nor is it the government's duty, per any fictional mandate, to declare to the world that the United States is a god-trusting nation. That whole notion is entirely dismissable and completely unimportant.
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of politics, religion, and history, all subtly disguised in eachother, that I choose to not start discussing it in this forum. Im well aware of any subtlety you are capable of, rest assured...
"Bongo hurtles along the rain soaked highway of life on underinflated bald retread tires."
~Wayne
i have absolutely no idea what you're talking about or where the persecution complex is coming from. if you'd care to PM an explanation perhaps it'll help, but past that, you'll have to wrestle with your own demons while the rest of us discuss the topic.
short of Hyperion explaning himself, would someone else care to tell me where he's coming from, either in the thread or via PM, maybe with a link or something?? thanks.
<< <i>There is no room for any god in our government. Sure, Pat Robertson the (village idiot of Virginia Beach) would petition his god to rebuke me for saying so and damn the government if it took that path of the infidel. People who are so for it, need to acquaint themselves with the history of the motto and its usage. (Reading the Federalist and Anti-Federist papers to understand the proper context of our Constitution also wouldn't hurt.) Adopting it officially had zero effect in steering communism from our shores. The original invocation probably also didn't really make US money any more acceptable to foreign peoples than it would have been without it.
If you believe in a particular god and that helps you get through life, wonderful. I really doubt you are so insecure in such faith that you require continual reminding in your money. If you are a "fisher of men" and your faith expects you to proselytize to the masses, put a fish on your car. It is not the job of the US Mint to proxy that for you nor is it the government's duty, per any fictional mandate, to declare to the world that the United States is a god-trusting nation. That whole notion is entirely dismissable and completely unimportant. >>
Are you so insecure with your beliefs that it offends you. Why should your beliefs win out against the majorities. Run a poll if you want, its been done, and it's always voted to remain.
">"http://www.cashcrate.com/5663377"
<< <i>Some of us enjoy being reminded of God on a daily basis... >>
I want it to stay just as it is, I like the motto.
Tom
Our individual or majority collective beliefs are not releveant at all. Mine, yours, Bush's, 51% of the voters, ... Changing our government to appease the whims of a fluctuating majority undermines our foundation. The motto should never have been added. The Eisenhower adminsitration was grossly negligent in its Constitutional duties when it chose to adopt that motto officially and CHANGE the Pledge of Allegiance. It was just as inappropriate as the internal Communist boogiemen they feared. A Century or two of distance from the foundation doesn't make it ok to redesign it.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" ---> take IGWT off of our money and continue to allow all people to freely practice their faith, provided it does not infringe on another's rights.
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were i not so verbose, this could have been the simple topic description which i tried to expound on. why didn't our Faith based Founding Fathers choose to have IGWT or something similar placed on our first coinage??
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Put it on our money, or take it off our money.....don't really care either way from a political/religious/historical perspective.
(Now....as a collector!......It's one more thing that has to fit on a coin. It makes coins cluttered, and gives us inferior designs.
<< <i>Why does everyone get so whipped up into a frothy frenzy about the prospect of this motto being removed from our coinage??? It's as if collectors should turn up their noses to pre-Civil War coinage that hadn't yet had the motto added, yet they seem to embrace these supposed "atheistic" coins. What's up with that???
In the big picture, do you really think having the motto In God We Trust on our coinage symbolizes anything more about us as a nation than not having it would symbolize?? Personally, I think the national physche is a bit out of joint about the whole thing and in reality is more upset about the prospect of change. Put another way, if the motto wasn't there now, the prospect of adding it would be just as controversial as the thought of having it removed is proving to be.
I find it rather ironic that many who get so jacked around about the motto being removed also seem to be totally ignorant about the other symbolic devices on our coinage. Also, why doesn't anyone clamor about the minor coinage that doesn't have the motto in place having it added??? Probably that prospect of change again, but who knows.
Al H. >>
Keets, why do YOU get whipped up into a frothy frenzy about the motto being retained? Really.
<< <i>What I don't want to see is a handful of judges (none of whom have any accountability to the public) making these kind of decisions. Let our elected legislators decide, or the states, or the popular vote. That way, I won't have any reason to complain if such a vote didn't go the way I would have liked.
interesting.......................so how do you feel about the way that it was added in the first place??? >>
Enlighten me.
Photos of the 2006 Boston Massacre
your post seemed to appear when this thread was near the top of the list,
after i responded...so i figured you didn't come out with the topic out of thin air.
I dont think that's a far reach on my part.
http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=459504
in any event, i think we've covered full ground here.
some people like it, some people dont care, some people it annoys.
I dont get my stones off by spouting my own opinions over and over, so ill leave this thread in peace.
Merry Christmas all !
or how about: " LAW over LOVE "
Okay lawyers, correct me if the date is wrong... I am going by memory.
And I remember a nicer America than the one I am in NOW ( doesn't NOW stand for something, too ?)
We all gotta pick a side someday
In God I trust, but I cannot speak for WE, there is too much division.
the motto was added, as i understand it, because a minister sent a letter to Salmon P. Chase requesting to have something added to our circulating coinage to express the national sentiment and help to heal the nation after the Civil War. the Mint Director was then instructed to do so.
Hyperion, my icon picture is of John Prine.
keets and i have made peace, he acknowledges that he didn't see an earlier post where i made
an offhand comment about "in god we trust" being removed from coins, (possibly) thereby starting this thread (the subject
was too similiar to my comment not to have a connection made).
he's obviously got a good logical head on his shoulders. looking forward to the next entertaining and provocative topic
he sees fit to bring to the forum !
HYPErion
(edited to sound more like english)
I personally do not feel strongly about it one way or the other.
Disclosure: I collect No Motto coins.
<< <i>in the interests of disclosure, I own 1 saint. : no motto >>
A saint who trusts no god?!!!!
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<< <i>ER, if you think that's a representative "frothy-frenzy" from me, you're just plain stupid. >>
It's ok for you to have opinion of others, but not vice versa? Amazing.
It's ok for you to have opinion of others, but not vice versa? Amazing.
ER, i'd think you were absolutely clueless if it weren't for your chosen forum ID. instead of posting little snippets, please explain why you think i'm whipped up about this and where in the thread i don't allow others to have opinions. i'll be waiting, but i figure it might taske you awhile to post something i can easily refute, just read my post and subsequent replies before you put your foot in your mouth.
<< <i>Keets, why do YOU get whipped up into a frothy frenzy about the motto being retained? Really.......................
It's ok for you to have opinion of others, but not vice versa? Amazing.
ER, i'd think you were absolutely clueless if it weren't for your chosen forum ID. instead of posting little snippets, please explain why you think i'm whipped up about this and where in the thread i don't allow others to have opinions. i'll be waiting, but i figure it might taske you awhile to post something i can easily refute, just read my post and subsequent replies before you put your foot in your mouth. >>
You can resort to name calling all you want. You can refute all you want, but opinions are just that, opinions. And, in my opinion, you are pretty whipped up.
Back to the motto, is it right or wrong to have it on the coins? IMHO, it's not a big deal, but I prefer to have it on, just like you preferring to have it off (I think).
<< <i>The motto should never have been added.
were i not so verbose, this could have been the simple topic description which i tried to expound on. why didn't our Faith based Founding Fathers choose to have IGWT or something similar placed on our first coinage?? >>
It's just like everyday life---when times are tough we/most people get more religious than usual. The nation was re-acting the same way. So.......do we remove it from coinage when times are relatively good? (lets not get into the times are good or bad thing---that IS OT!)
Al, I'm guessing that by the time the U.S. was minting it's coinage, the effect of the War for independence had faded? The founding fathers & people of the time just didn't feel the need for it? I believe that crisis makes us as religious as maybe we should be the rest of the time!
I'd love to have some insights as to how the original IGWT legislation passed.
<< <i>I'd love to have some insights as to how the original IGWT legislation passed.
IGWT Wiki Article
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finally, a response that's honest and about the topic!!!!!!!!!!
actually i have no problem with the motto. if it stays i wouldn't care and if it's removed i wouldn't object. i do, however, believe that some who object to it's removal really don't know how it came to be there in the first place. i explained in the first page what that was, and though my understanding may not be 100% spot on, noone has corrected me yet. also, i'm not really curious about whether it's right or wrong to have it in place, i had just hoped to discuss it's history a little bit, along with what many base their opinion on when they state that it should stay. that opinion seems to be myopic to me, it always gets back to the feeling that removal will portray us as a godless people and grant some hollow victory to those who we see as atheists. add to that some notion that it'll undermine family values and the moral fabric of the country and i just start to shake my head.
if people who feel that way can post WHY those things would come to pass, i'd be all ears.
It got me to thinking that if the God Mark wasn't there in 1950 when and where did this offending mark come from? In 1782 Jefferson, who coined the phrase 'wall of separation between church and state,' authored the first national motto. From an Deist and separationist like Jefferson this motto was clearly secular. "E Pluribus Unum," (One from Many) was this first motto and still part of the great seal of the United States. This motto appeared on the first coin in 1798 and in 1837 was required by law to appear on all U.S. coins. It still appears on coins today.
This motto stood without challenge for nearly a century. In a letter dated November, 13 1861 from Rev. M. R. Watkinson, a Minister of the Gospel from Ridleyville, PA, Secretary of the Treasury Salmon P. Chase was urged to recognize God on our coins for what strike me (non-lawyer) as unconstitutional reasons. The letter went as follows:
Dear Sir: You are about to submit your annual report to the Congress respecting the affairs of the national finances.
One fact touching our currency has hitherto been seriously overlooked. I mean the recognition of the Almighty God in some form on our coins.
You are probably a Christian. What if our Republic were not shattered beyond reconstruction? Would not the antiquaries of succeeding centuries rightly reason from our past that we were a heathen nation? What I propose is that instead of the goddess of liberty we shall have next inside the 13 stars a ring inscribed with the words PERPETUAL UNION; within the ring the allseeing eye, crowned with a halo; beneath this eye the American flag, bearing in its field stars equal to the number of the States united; in the folds of the bars the words GOD, LIBERTY, LAW.
This would make a beautiful coin, to which no possible citizen could object. This would relieve us from the ignominy of heathenism. This would place us openly under the Divine protection we have personally claimed. From my hearth I have felt our national shame in disowning God as not the least of our present national disasters.
To you first I address a subject that must be agitated.
This letter set off a series of events that cause a 1864 law to be passed allowing the "In God We Trust" motto to be placed on one, two and three cent coins. At this time the congress was controlled and sympathetic to the historical equivalent of the Religious Right and caved in without thinking about the constitutional aspects. Watkinson and the congress of the time is our worst nightmare. Watkinson in addition religionizing the currency also went so far as to suggest amending the preamble of the constitution. A Petition was drawn up and formally presented to congress to change the preamble to the following:
"We, the people of the United States, humbly acknowledging Almighty God as the source of all authority and power in civil government, the Lord Jesus Christ as the Ruler among the nations, His revealed will as the supreme law of the land, in order to constitute a Christian government..."
Luckily the petition did not pass and we are allowed some degree of religious freedom in this country. On the coin front, however, Watkinson was wildly successful, by 1873 after passing several laws the "In God We Trust" motto was allowed on all coins and in 1908 it became mandatory on all U.S. coins.
In 1955 state-church separation became a victim of the cold war. The cold war was represented as a fight against the godless communists. The McCarthy era respect for individual rights led to President Eisenhower to sign Public Law 140 making it mandatory that all coins and paper money reflect an unconstitutional Christian state. In 1956 E Pluribus Unum was pushed aside as the national motto in favor of the religious motto. As part of a broad anti-communist/anti-atheist program that same year the words "under God" were added to the pledge of allegiance making it illegal for non-Christians to swear allegiance to their country under oath. This program also added the phrase "so help me god" to the oath administered to all judges.
The motto has been challenged at least twice, Once in 1970 (Aronow v. United States) and once in 1978 by the grandma of atheism (Madalyn Murray-O'Hair v W. Michael Blumenthal, Secretary of Treasury). Unfortunately both times the courts have closed their eyes and come to the conclusion that the phrase really isn't religious (really) just like prayers at government meetings aren't religious (really).
So where does that leave us? Well I suggest three action: First join me in protesting the phrase by crossing it out on any bill that crosses your path. Secondly make an weekly, monthly, annual or at least once ritual of writing the secretary of the Treasury, your congressmen, and senators with your thoughts on the constitutionality of this motto. And lastly remember that the "In God We Trust" motto does not prove, as is often suggested, that the United States was based on Christian ideals. Remember that the First Amendment is a much more basic tenant of the this country than it's current motto.
-atheist
Edited: This is sarcasm, I think keets will get it.
<< <i>
<< <i>There is no room for any god in our government. Sure, Pat Robertson the (village idiot of Virginia Beach) would petition his god to rebuke me for saying so and damn the government if it took that path of the infidel. People who are so for it, need to acquaint themselves with the history of the motto and its usage. (Reading the Federalist and Anti-Federist papers to understand the proper context of our Constitution also wouldn't hurt.) Adopting it officially had zero effect in steering communism from our shores. The original invocation probably also didn't really make US money any more acceptable to foreign peoples than it would have been without it.
If you believe in a particular god and that helps you get through life, wonderful. I really doubt you are so insecure in such faith that you require continual reminding in your money. If you are a "fisher of men" and your faith expects you to proselytize to the masses, put a fish on your car. It is not the job of the US Mint to proxy that for you nor is it the government's duty, per any fictional mandate, to declare to the world that the United States is a god-trusting nation. That whole notion is entirely dismissable and completely unimportant. >>
Are you so insecure with your beliefs that it offends you. Why should your beliefs win out against the majorities. Run a poll if you want, its been done, and it's always voted to remain. >>
<< <i> Some of us enjoy being reminded of God on a daily basis... >>
On the contrary, are you so insecure that you NEED to be reminded of God daily? You can do that by praying and following the tenets of your religion. I'm reminded of my religion by the way I carry out my life, NOT the way I carry change.
Jeremy, you are wise beyond your years.
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Its nice to see religion hasn't been banned from every aspect of American's lives.
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<< <i>Difference of opinions. I don't NEED to be reminded dailiy but its nice.
Its nice to see religion hasn't been banned from every aspect of American's lives. >>
That's the beauty of America. Religion hasn't been banned--everyone is free to practice as they wish, but simply not when that involves the government. There are an enormous number of churches, synagogues, mosques, etc. around the country where people are free to worship. Houses are filled with religious regalia. People wear clothing and jewelry expressive of their faith.
In a world where everything listed above can be banned at will by governments, I think there's a lot to be thankful for that we have the freedom offered to us. Anyone secure with who they are does not need their child to be taught of God in school, or the ten commandments to be plastered in courts, or a proclamation of God to be placed on our money. The ability to believe is far more important than any of those things, and if you can honestly tell yourself that you believe, does it matter whether others do, as well? After all, they're simply expressing their own right to believe.
what is so often omitted are the many reasons christians wouldn't want it.
First and foremost it smacks of sacrilege and state sponsored religion.
It might say to our enemies that we'll defend the god we trust or even attack their god(s).
It is open to intentional defacement by those who don't share this trust or are offended by it.
It is open to inadvertant defacement such as a clipped planchet bicentennial quarter which clearly states "in God we rust".
It can insult our friends and make it less likely they convert.
It conveys the wrong message about the nature and character of this country.
It's simply insulting to have such messages displayed where we have no control. Those who don't approve of LIBERTY, E PLURIBUS UNUM, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, be damned, but what right have we to force our version of God on people.
Too bad the Federal Reserve isn't part of the state so your "separation of church and state" claim isn't valid. The goverment does impose laws to control it just like it's people.