PCGS VS NGC GRADING

MS67PLUS

Has anyone else noticed that a lot of Ebay sellers that used to slab and sell only pcgs high grade coins are now selling a majority of high grade NGC coins? I talked to one
seller and he told me that PCGS was getting extra tight on grading in the past year and he felt like he was wasting his grading fees at PCGS. This is a seller who has sold a ton of High Grade modern coins in the past years especially State Quarters to a lot of the registry top 10. I checked some other sellers listings and they are also selling NGC coins now where they were not before.

Will this trend continue?

Does anyone think this will affect PCGS submissions or is it just a phase?

BECOKA

If it reduces the amount of time to get PCGS coins back I am all for it. In general at least with gold PCGS still has a considerable premium over NGC. As far as State Quarters or modern coins the only difference is the cut off point for PR70. PCGS is much stricter.

zkcoins

I am not sure if the trend continues but I must say I would rather have strict grading than loose grading. What would make you more upset sending a true ms65 coin in and getting ms64 holder but knowing that is it truly tops for the grade; or buying a coin in an ms65 holder for ms65 money and receiving the coin in hand only to see that it was way over graded and should be ms63 or 64. Personally I would rather have the high grade in the low holder myself. Which leads me to this subject and my opening sentance.

I know that grading is subjective and PCGS cannot be 100% perfect all the time and I do not believe that anyone can be, but I personally do not collect NGC coins in general. This is mainly due to the type of coins I collect, which is moderns. I do own some NGC coins as I try to buy the coins I like and not the holders, and I do not attempt to avoid NGC coins. I just prefer PCGS for several reasons, the strict grading is one of those reasons.


Zach

morgannut2

On the post 1932 Washingtons I collected, PCGS seemed clearly one point tighter in terms of marks, whereas NGC seems to value luster a bit more than PCGS. More a question of being different in certain categories, than being tighter.

zkcoins

<< <i>On the post 1932 Washingtons I collected, PCGS seemed clearly one point tighter in terms of marks, whereas NGC seems to value luster a bit more than PCGS. More a question of being different in certain categories, than being tighter. >>



Exactly!

Steve

PCGS vrs NGC. It is NOT about the grading. It is ALL about the MONEY! Steve

COINDOG

PCGS is, and will continue to be the leader in this field. PCGS coin prices are ALWAYS more, and everyone else plays " follow the leader ".

Datentype

PCGS does not care any more about whether they get the modern coins for grading so they are turning the business away from the repsonses i have had from the top. If you talk about premiums on coins, the majority of the high grade coins were graded at PCGS when they had standards looser or equal than what NGC standards are currently. You can find some junk in NGC holders but it is the same with PCGS.

Again, the point I am really trying to ram home here is that NGC currently grades how PCGS did 1 year ago and my eyes are tuned in to that level still and when i get NGC grades back they are what i expect. PCGS is grossly off this level right now and I would dump their stock if you own it. Their new outside business ventures will likely bomb as well.

dbldie55

All I know is NGC gives lower grades than PCGS on the same coin.

wondercoin

Mark / Datentype: You have basically stated here that PCGS is grading a point or more stricter than NGC right now on moderns (and has for most of the year). As a dealer, you are finding that you can get better returns slabbing over at NGC than over at PCGS (and I am not disputing that). And, I am not disputing that it has been very tough to slab top pop moderns at PCGS this year either.

My question is simply this (for Mark or anyone else). Assuming the above is all true, FROM THE COLLECTOR STANDPOINT, why wouldn't a collector want to buy up as much nice quality PCGS freshly graded material as he can possibly find, even if some of it later finds it way over to NGC to do exactly what you suggest makes the most sense to do right now? In other words, hasn't nearly this entire year been a BONANZA for the true collector to buy incredible quality freshly graded modern coins in PCGS holders? And, by "modern" here, I am talking about mostly 1965-date coins with some very neat and valuable Mint State coins from the 1960's, 1970's, 1980's and 1990's also being included in the discussion here. Hasn't this been an incredible "window of opportunity" this past year for the dedicated COLLECTOR of moderns?

Wondercoin.

jcping

> a lot of Ebay sellers that used to slab and sell only pcgs high grade coins are now selling a majority of high grade NGC coins?

It is much difficult to move NGC coins, especially, high grade NGC coins unless selling them at a discount.
We can talk all day long that PCGS is tighter or NGC has much improvement. Try to bring some "fresh material" to sell in major coin shows, you will find out why PCGS coins are better. Or you can go to Heritage website to use their archived photos to compare PCGS and NGC coin quality and find out why so many high price coins (same grade on holders) that PCGS coins were sold at doubled or higher prices.

Yes, it is all MONEY games, nevertheless, without some quality, PCGS coins won't be so much better in prices.

Do you believe there are more cross-over from NGC to PCGS or the other way around? If more better NGC coins got cross-over-ed into PCGS holders, of course, the average quality of NGC coins will be getting lower and lower. The market price reflects the reality.

mas3387

<< <i>when i get NGC grades back they are what i expect. >>



Mark,
I feel your pain as well, I believe we have seen enough coins between the two of us to know what grades we should expect back from PCGS. I have also recently sent some coins to NGC as well, these coins have returned to me with just as strict of a grade BUT the grade I expected. None of the NGC coins where over graded, as I have seem some that have been, IMO. I will stay loyal to PCGS as a submitter but will be keep submission numbers down until??

wondercoin

"these coins have returned to me with just as strict of a grade BUT the grade I expected"

MAS: What does this mean? "Just as strict of a grade" as what?

Assuming you are comparing PCGS to NGC here, how can there be "just as strict of a grade" AND "the grade expected" (at one, but not the other)? I am having a tough time following the premise.

Wondercoin

Datentype

Yes Mitch, freshly graded material is the key here. If they were graded this year for the most part I would attest to the value of those coins over prior years concerning moderns at this moment in time. That would mean a lot of people are sitting on over graded inventory that should sell for a discount then. I have cracked out many a coin to try and get an upgrade only to get them back 1 or 2 grades lower.

ellewood

When I first started collecting certified coins a couple of years back, I took the advice of a few long-time collectors around here to stick with PCGS certified coins (as opposed to NGC). Boy am I glad I did. 99% of the time a coin of the same grade will sell for more (and sometimes MUCH more) in a PCGS holder than it will in an NGC holder. There is only one obvious reason for that...and it's the reputation that PCGS has built for themselves. I believe that PCGS wants their reputation to be that they are a bit stricter on grading as that sets them apart from the other TPG's. Good for them.

That's precisely why every single one of my coins resides in a PCGS holder!

mas3387

<< <i>Assuming you are comparing PCGS to NGC here, how can there be "just as strict of a grade" AND "the grade expected" (at one, but not the other)? I am having a tough time following the premise. >>





<< <i>(at one, but not the other)? >>


This is what I am are trying to figure out

wondercoin

"This is what I am are trying to figure out"

It's actually very simple from the standpoint of a philosophical discussion of premises followed by a conclusion. The conclusion is the grades are NOT "just as strict" on these moderns. This having nothing to do with who is grading "right" or "wrong" or most "consistently", but, simply an analysis of a standard. And, as I mentioned, it has been a BONANZA for serious collectors of finest quality PCGS moderns this year IMHO (as well as for professional crack out guys who can do a lot of things including seek even higher grades on these PCGS coins at other grading services).

Wondercoin.

DeepCoin

My experiences with Mercury dimes is one that mirrors many others experiences. PCGS was typically a one grade lower than the same coin in an NGC holder. I collected high grade dimes in NB so I cannot comment on grades that were not MS. I suspect there are some older coins that would cross on a crackout, but I have not attempted to validate this. I may try with some bust halves to see how I make out. Just taking a flyer and not overly concerned. I do get tired of the crying over grading. You pay your money and take your chances... with both groups.

All that said, I would never hesitate to purchase a nice coin in an NGC holder if the price was right. They are a quality operation, but in some places grading differs ever so slightly.

jcping

> I would never hesitate to purchase a nice coin in an NGC holder if the price was right.

We all do that. When NGC put one to two grade higher on holders, pleaes tell me which dealer will sell you the coin at one to two grade lower prices? They all want "PCGS" grade prices (or may give you a little bit of break)

Did Laura talk about wannabe? They only look at the grades on holders.

Mistercoinman

I am a collector, and from a collectors point of view, why would I purchase any other coin than one in a PCGS holder? I believe in my grading skills for the coins I am most familiar but when buying type coins or nice coins from other series where my grading may be suspect why not go with the coins most dealers are trying to compare there pricing too. If I see an advertisement for a coin in a NGC holder and the dealer refers to PCGS price guide to market the coin, then why would I want to buy a NGC coin? I do not own one NGC coin. I did purchase a couple coins and tried to cross them and in every instance the coin came back a grade lower. So I ask is an NGC graded coin in ms-68 equal to a PCGS coin in 67? As a collector I know grading can be subjective, so why not trust the one company being the most subjective..

mas3387

<< <i>It's actually very simple from the standpoint of a philosophical discussion of premises followed by a conclusion. The conclusion is the grades are NOT "just as strict" on these moderns. This having nothing to do with who is grading "right" or "wrong" or most "consistently", but, simply an analysis of a standard. And, as I mentioned, it has been a BONANZA for serious collectors of finest quality PCGS moderns this year IMHO (as well as for professional crack out guys who can do a lot of things including seek even higher grades on these PCGS coins at other grading services). >>





Now that we have this all cleared up, I think I'll go crack a few. I know I'm not the only person who has done this, wonder who else does

DIMEMAN

Just thought I would jump in here and get some opinoins from you guys that do a lot of crossing over or cracking out. I collect mostly AU and unc coins 61-66 never higher than 67. I always try to get the coins I want and need for my sets in PCGS holders for the reasons you all have stated. But when I see a nice coin (I try to buy the coin not the holder) in an auction that is in NGC or ANACS I am afraid to buy it. I guess my question is......is it as hard to cross a AU55 or 58 coin as it is a 68 or 69 coin? I'm talking about the classics like seated dimes or barber coins.

Any opinoins would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks, Jon

dbldie55

I have had 100% success in getting NGC coins into PCGS holders at the same grade (and in one case higher).

DIMEMAN

dbldie55, did you crack them out or send in holders.

Jon

dbldie55

I have done both. The only DNC I ever had, I sent back in raw and it came back the same grade.

dunerlaw

dimeman,
I crossed all of my anacs/ngc au50-58 dimes.
I cross about 60% of my ms63-66 dimes.(in older holders only)
The real danger coins are ms61 or ms62. They slip to au58 or BB.
of course if your collecting au58 they might be ok.
Larry

wondercoin

"I have had 100% success in getting NGC coins into PCGS holders at the same grade (and in one case higher)."

Dbldie55: Do you believe your excellent track record is directly linked to your skills as a numismatist or do you believe most NGC coins are graded on par with PCGS standards and deserve to cross? I assume most of your success involves Liberty nickels, or have you crossed many moderns with great success as well? Which series has worked best for you?

Wondercoin

rainbowroosie

I know roosies fairly well and I get about 50%.

roadrunner

My success rate on crossing over NGC to PCGS silver type coins is 0% (0 for 25) over the past 8 years or so. It's a very small sample window to hang your hat on but these were pieces I felt were very solid for the grades and I have been offered well over "CDN bid" prices for a number of these coins.
There's plenty of politicking involved here as well. You'd probably get a low % rate if you tried crossing PCGS to NGC as well.

I am one for one on ANACS

roadrunner

SUPERCARCOINS

......I believe that NGC coins are crossed into PCGS coins at a ratio of at least 10 to 1 ; more probably 100 to 1 .

I have crossed a couple of hundred in my lifetime . All were NGC to PCGS , never even considered the other way around ....

why in the world would i want to make a coin worth LESS money ??

The FIRST thing i do when i get a neat NGC coin is dream of it getting into a PCGS holder .

mas3387

<< <i>MAS: What does this mean? "Just as strict of a grade" as what? >>





<< <i>I have crossed a couple of hundred in my lifetime . All were NGC to PCGS , never even considered the other way around .... >>



Question answered

roadrunner

I too would have been puzzled why one would want to cross PCGS to NGC. But someone does it. And last time I checked the cross rate was around 40%. Amazing isn't it? Both services cross at rates far less than 50% yet we have all these lousy graded coins sitting on the market.

At one show I attended a gentleman was looking for only NGC MS64 common date silver dollars. I could not sell him a PCGS coin as he only wanted NGC...felt it was better for him. His only objective were the cheapest coins in NGC holders for his collection.

roadrunner

monsterman

>>> I just prefer PCGS for several reasons, the strict grading is one of those reasons.

Zach

>>>PCGS is, and will continue to be the leader in this field. PCGS coin prices are ALWAYS more, and everyone else plays " follow the leader

coindog

it always amazes me when i think of jim jones and his koolaid and when i read comments like these

and thinking like this has allowed me to amass a world class collection much cheaper than it should of

many need to do new thinking as their logic is severely flawed ...now im going to spank some people...the smart ones wil listen...the others will say poo-poo on my comments ...BUT THEY ARE RIGHT ON TARGET

1) gradeflation is a fact...if you dont believe it your lost!!!

2) grading is a relative thing in regards to gradeflation...last year`s 66.9 is now a 67..........but if you werent smart enough or good enough to know the difference and bought a 66.3....yours is still a 66 and the fact is the pop is rising around your coin and if there arent enough collectors to speak for the increase in pop...your coin`s bid/ask is going down too............talent wins...always

3) all grading services take a " stance' on their grading....and pcgs is the tuffest....or is that the unfairest ( i know its not a word)...or is that the most inconsistent...because inconsistency serves the dealers not the collectors....you see if a service purposely undergardes it swings the grading knowledge on exactly what a 66.3 or a 66.9 to the pros not the collectors...........thus becoming very dealer friendly...whcih in turn makes them the money at the collectors expense ( ok dealers dont start...i speak the truth and you know it..this is not a slam against you at all..just stating the facts)

over a year`s time i have sent the same coin to pcgs ( id like to think i know what im doing)...to pcgs 4 times looking for a 68..it came back..66...67...64..65....the same coin went to ngc ...it came back 67....67...67...67........ok..the point is consistency...why would one service be so inconsistent........money!!..if you are on wall street now and by properly grading coins you create wealth for people why would they create 5,000 worth of wealth for someone for a 100 fee...why not undergade on purpose and make them send it in again and again...making them do it 10 times would increase gross revenue 10 fold!!!! duh!!!

4) fact...more ngc coins are bought by the upgraders than pcgs coins..why is that...are you smarter than them or are they smarter than you!!!!!....i`ll take the later thankyou

5) lets just say that ngc is a 1/4 below pcgs....since they dont grade coins 66.75 the the math logic is 3 of 4 coins are graded correctly.......and its those coins i buy and thanks to the many not so smart guys out there the compedition for them is less and thus so is the price..........i love it a lot....thus you need to reread #4 above

ok here is the undisputed acid test ...and you better do new thinking as the train will leave all clones behind who buy only one sevices coins

this scenario is the acid truth and is undisputed..unless your a meathead...some of the names are changed to protect the innocent and all name are made up and factitious

my favrotie upgrader is jim halpreeeen...he is..if not one the best in the biz....he always tries to break the glass ceiling aka pop 1....seeing millions of coins he knows his stuff....he is disciplined and does " give up" from time to time with opcgs and their inconsistency and thus trying to maximize his efforts he goes to ngc where they will put the right grade on the coin...which they do...so where does he sell these coins.........me.........because i will pay a very nice premium for them as to what he paid as i know qualiuty when i see it... but much less than he would of gotten in the "money holder" where the clones pay ga ga money for it....you see....in a 66 it was a 500 coin...in a pcgs 67 holder its a 16,000 coin...he only buys quality and paid double sheet for the coin in an ngc holder ( which you guys should of bought )....after giving up at pcgs it goes to ngc and the correct grade is assigned...67...i buy the coin for 4,000 ...25% of pcgs cost.....i put it into my safe and next year i make the coin and sell it for the 16,000 or 12,000 profit..............GAWD I LOVE THIS JOB!!!

news flash...pcgs and its glass ceiling will kill you....all the brain guys ( crack out guys ) have sent them all to ngc to get at least some of their value out of them so they can move on.....in some series ( im not going to tell you what ) 90% of all the best coins are in ngc holders....and come out little by little to feed the clones....for much more money than before

its a win win situation with jim...every coin jim buys is sold...if he makes the coin its sold..if he doesnt i buy it..........thus every coin is sold and both of us make a ton of money.........why is that...because there are sooooo many collectors out there who dont know " the game"

THE DUMBEST THING I HAVE EVER HEARD IS I ONLY BUY PCGS COINS

i could go on...and on...and on...its soo funny watching for the last 20 years of grading and what some people do..absolutely funny

coinguy1

<<he had a chance to buy the most premier set there is and combine his handfull of coins to make the best set ever....but he is a dumb a$$ pcgs clone and the set had some ngc scoins in it he past on it...60 seconds later the set was sold to the guy on second base for well over a million...but here is the problem

the dumb a$$ forgot to think...mmmmmmm..i can only find 2 or 3 coins a year for my set ( at least that the way its been )....now its going to take me 20 years to finish.....>>

Gregg, as I noted last time you brought that up - you don't have all the facts. Your judgments are accordingly out of line and unfair, not to mention inappropriate and outright rude.

It makes me doubt the accuracy of other things you comment on.

leothelyon

What do these stats say? Anyone? For NGC, I believe the rarer find could be found in a MS64 slab! lol

Washington Quarters that sold thru Teletrade in the last 360 days.

PCGS NGC PCGS NGC
MS67 23 396 0-0 0-0
MS66 533 1263 32-102 292-687
MS65 495 216 25-81 16-54
MS64 175 66 8-29 2-5

65% of NGC certified quarters that sold through Teletrade in the last 360 days dating from 1932 to 1955 graded MS66 For PCGS, it was 43%.
85% of NGC certified quarters that sold through Teletrade in the last 360 days dating from 1932 to 1955 graded MS66 or MS67 For PCGS, it was 45%.
The last two set of numbers show the number of multiple coin lots and the total coins for those lots.
For NGC MS66 multiple coin lots………HSN!

Washington Quarters that sold thru Heritage dating back to specific dates;

PCGS NGC
MS67 370 247 Nov 02 2004
MS66 1000 180 Jan 29 2004
MS65 1000 312 Nov 08 2004
MS64 240 143 Nov 02 2004
Total 2610 882

Leo

monsterman

coinguy1

Gregg, the first half of your post above addresses only whether a certain person passed on the deal - you did have that part right. However, I never said you didn't have some of the facts - I said "Gregg, as I noted last time you brought that up - you don't have all the facts. Your judgments are accordingly out of line and unfair, not to mention inappropriate and outright rude." And, I will stand by that, despite your threats.

<<the dumb a$$ forgot to think...mmmmmmm..i can only find 2 or 3 coins a year for my set ( at least that the way its been )....now its going to take me 20 years to finish.....>>

My apologies - I had forgotten that you were a mind reader.

<<and you know what else...every ngc coin will of grade flated into the pcgs holders in 3 years??>>

My apologies again - I had forgotten that you could foretell the future and with 100% accuracy.

Thank you for helping to confirm some of the points I had made in my previous post.

PS -

<< <i>60 seconds later the set was sold.. >>

I don't know for a fact that such was not the case, but I strongly suspect a bit of exaggeration was involved there too.

Edited to add: Gregg, I am fully aware that I don't have all of the facts either. Unlike you, however, I didn't pass public judgment here (unfairly and rudely), on any of the participants. I do have enough facts to know you were guilty of that.

coinguy1

My apologies to the rest of the forum for having taken this thread OT - I will not do so again.

TONEDDOLLARS

I totaly agree with Gregg, to many collectors drink the Koolaid. All coins
should stand on their own regardless of what plastic their in. I have bought some amazing
NGC coins that the sellers told me so and so passed on this coin, as it was not in a
pcgs holder. Maybe some are not confident enough to trust their own skills.

monsterman

monsterman

>>>>TONEDDOLLARS

my man!!!!

thank you

now lets turn up the volume

i love pcgs...i love them a lot!!!..i love it when they tighten...i love it lot....all it does is

make the crackout guys go to ngc to get the right grade ..who will properly grade coins...then i get to buy them from the crackout guys for less....then if its a collection coin i put it into my colection....but may times i buy their coins on spec...throw it in the safe.....bring it out in the future i then i cross it and make al the money they should of selling it to the clones.....who gladly pay all the money and then some..........then i just buy more coins for my collection

i call it my building a million dollar collection on a 200,000 technique

100,000 from me and 800,000 from the clones

now the next logical step is........well if that were the case then all great coins would end up in pcgs holders...which would happen if it werent for ngc slowing putting on the brakes and catching pcgs ( even pre rick montgomery going to ngc)....combined with the fac t of gradeflation...wa la...pcgs is caught from behind...albeit not with the price sheets yet.........THAST GREAT..MONEY COINS FOR LESS MONEY FOR ME AND YOU TONEDDOLLARS...AND LESS FOR THE CLONES

in general....the coins at ngc are on par with pcgs but the price sheets are not....

the fact is however the window of opportunity is closing as more and more people are waking up....and so are the dealers...and even the crackout guys....where as even they are now giving up on a coin and leaving it in a ngc holder without the upgrade which didnt happen before.............mmmmmmmmmmm love those 67.9 coins in ngc holders....i speced and bought one last year where as 67 money was 8,000.....68 money was 28,000.....paid the guy 12,000 for it in a ngc holder....next show boom pcgs 68 and it went bye bye and i went to the auction with 16,000 clone dollars...yeppie

nuff said

monsterman....aka gregg

monsterman

ok mark

i need your expertice

since pcgs does not grade proof isabellas and ngc does

i have this really monstrer toned isabella in ngc pr66....as we all know proof are graded much harder than mint state ...

its a no brainer 68 shot 69 under mint state grading guidelines

should i submit it to pcgs and see if i can get a ms68 or ms69 out of it!!

or

will they play stupid and put a 67 on it which does me no good at all as far as value....as only a 68 or 69 would help in that regard!!

i will await your reply

thanks
monsterman

roadrunner

I'm sure the commem market works as Monsterman states. I pretty much stay in the type market looking for honest NGC coins in the right holders. The only problem is that maybe only 10-20% seem to make the grade. In bust and seated coins there are so many not quite right NGC coins that when you finally see one that's right....you have do rub your eyes to make sure you aren't seeing things. Once you do finally find that coin then you can apply Monsterman's techniques.

The recent cross of my ex-1890 NGC PF68 Kaufman half to PCGS PF68 Cameo (and a bump from $14K to $35K) is a good example of MM's points.

roadrunner

DMWJR

my favrotie upgrader is jim halpreeeen...he is..if not one the best in the biz....he always tries to break the glass ceiling aka pop 1....seeing millions of coins he knows his stuff....he is disciplined and does " give up" from time to time with opcgs and their inconsistency and thus trying to maximize his efforts he goes to ngc where they will put the right grade on the coin...which they do...so where does he sell these coins.........me.........because i will pay a very nice premium for them as to what he paid as i know qualiuty when i see it... but much less than he would of gotten in the "money holder" where the clones pay ga ga money for it....you see....in a 66 it was a 500 coin...in a pcgs 67 holder its a 16,000 coin...he only buys quality and paid double sheet for the coin in an ngc holder ( which you guys should of bought )....after giving up at pcgs it goes to ngc and the correct grade is assigned...67...i buy the coin for 4,000 ...25% of pcgs cost.....i put it into my safe and next year i make the coin and sell it for the 16,000 or 12,000 profit..............GAWD I LOVE THIS JOB!!!

Monsterman, why doesn't Jim just sit on the coin for a year? It would seem he is stoopid for passing along a 12,000 profit because he doesn't want to wait a year.

ellewood

over a year`s time i have sent the same coin to pcgs ( id like to think i know what im doing)...to pcgs 4 times looking for a 68..it came back..66...67...64..65....the same coin went to ngc ...it came back 67....67...67...67........ok..the point is consistency...why would one service be so inconsistent........money!!..if you are on wall street now and by properly grading coins you create wealth for people why would they create 5,000 worth of wealth for someone for a 100 fee...why not undergade on purpose and make them send it in again and again...making them do it 10 times would increase gross revenue 10 fold!!!! duh!!!

If I knew how to throw up the popcorn symbol I would have done so at this time. This could get real interesting.

TTT

SUPERCARCOINS

Monsterman -- you 'da beast dude !!

BAJJERFAN

<<"he is disciplined and does " give up" from time to time with opcgs and their inconsistency and thus trying to maximize his efforts he goes to ngc where they will put the right grade on the coin...which they do...so">>

If they indeed do put the right grade on the coin then why do SO many still want that same properly graded coin in that "other" plastic"? right grade; wrong plastic. It is well known that PCGS plasticated coins often bring more money than those same coins plasticated by NGC. This didn't just happen by chance; there must be a valid reason that SO many people believe this.

monsterman

bajj

>>>>This didn't just happen by chance; there must be a valid reason that SO many people believe this

well hows this sound

in the beginning pcgs had 8 owners all who had 10 dealer friends thus 80 market makers

a year later ngc was started by an ex pcgs owner who had 10 dealers friends thus 10 market makers

80 to 10 is pretty powerfull ...now think with me here

you want to blow your nose you say give me a klennex.....not a facial tissue

you want a brown carbonated soda you say give me a coke...not a brown carbonated soda

klennex and coke are brand names ingrained into peoples heads....and so is pcgs

ok ok how about this one.........lets say " in the board room " ngc says we want to be 1/4 below pcgs....a full point is for the third tier services...since they dont grade 66.75 that means that 3 out of 4 ngc coins are graded exactly like pcgs and one is not

and i for one am totally amazed at how those 3 coins trade at a lesser figure than pcgs

now let me say this right now and im not braging its just a fact...the coins i buy are all monster toned and it doesnt make a hoot whether they are in pcgs or ngc as you throw away the price sheets and play chicken where as you ask yourself is there another fool out there who will pay triple sheet or quadruple sheet...or five times sheet???...i can tell you there are 3,000 gettysburgs in 67 and there are 15,000 gettysburgs in 67 and you have to know the market...its the ultimate you snooze you lose.........i cant tell you how many times i have been amazed...but monster toned coins are like buying art and you have to have a real sense of the market and who is playing

back to the pcgs/ngc thing...i am always amazed when you can buy a 92-s morgan in an ms 67 ngc holder for 90,000 and then cross it to pcgs and sell it for 200,000 .........im always amazed

now i will tell you about another thing and the stigma has been hard to erase but its almost gone............about 10 years ago when pcgs had a commanding lead..........all great ngc morgans went across the street to pcgs for the bigger money...it happened because there were only about 3 guys playing high graded morgans then and they were devote pcgs loyalists...well all that was left in ngc holders were the so so coins and it was tuff to over come...but the market has grown much bigger now and the gap between the 2 has closed...problem is not everyone knows it..so all those great cons got into pcgs holders

aaaa but wait

lets talk about the 10 tuffest dates for btw commems.....and the glass ceiling...upgraders ( who are just as if not more talented as the services graders ) try to make a pop one coins and when they do they ask all the money......they try and try but if the window is closed and pcgs isnt grading them right...the upgraders want to get paid for their expertise so they go across the street and ngc puts the coin into the the right holder....now there is a pop 1 at ngc pop 0 at pcgs....then it happens again..pop 2 at ngc pop 0 at pcgs....and again ...and again...and again.....do you know what that means..........the best eyes in the world think they have the best...but pcgs wont grade them as such...........so do you know where all the great btw commems are now...ngc

and when that happens this is next

.....take another series....pcgs wont grade them....they all go to ngc.....a smart guy keeps buying them off the upgraders.....in time he has 9 in ms 67 and pcgs has none....in a pcgs holder one would be worth 16,000 but in an ngc holder they are worth 5,000..........well a 45,000 investment gets me the whole population...and you know what after a few years i pull them out....and one looks like a lock 68....heck with a 67...and another looks close.....so i line all 9 coins up and hold back the 2 best...i take the 3rd 4th and 5th coins over to pgcs and boom i make 2 of them...i sell them both for 16,000 each....then i make the 3rd one...and it goes for 13,000...........now i spent 45,000 and i just got back 45,000 and i still have the best 2 of the whole population...and guess what the first time in one 68s....and i have it for free along with 5 other coins....and yes this actually happened

so you see all this talk brings us right back to the same old mantra...BUY THE COIN NOT THE SLAB

and if you dont...your toast....youll never compete with those that do...why anyone would close out half the coins out there because of the slab its in....would ya get into a fist fight with one hand tied behind your back??

monsterman

coinrookie

Could the reason have more to do wth quicker turn-around times and less to do with less strict grading? If you are a bulk seller on e-bay and you can get your material back at a lower grading fee and quicker, is not this a better business decision?

jpkinla

In high end Saints and $10 Indians I will always buy a nice NGC coin and attempt to cross it over if its nice.....But I prefer PCGS coins because the demand for them is greater.....Basically 90% of PCGS coins are correctly graded whereas let's say 70% of NGC coins are correctly graded.....So that is one of the disparities and what causes the PCGS preference....

Dealers love to buy a great looking MS65 Saint and then somehow miraculously get it into a NGC 66 holder.....Is it worth more then? They will get more for it than if its in the NGC66 holder so that is why they do it....Its all about the upgrade game!

A great example of that would be the Kruthofer 1933 $10 Indian which was in a PCGS MS65 holder but recently was auctioned off by Stack's as a NGC MS66 POP 1 coin.....Is it the finest known? Who knows and who cares? I like my PCGS MS65 example just fine.......The NGC example in MS66 sold for $720k whereas I bought mine for 1/3 less.....

So you really have to buy the coin, not the holder but with everything else being equal, the market assigns a premium to a PCGS coin an I am fine with that.....I will pay a premium for a PCGS coin all else being equal....

roadrunner

Trying to apply Monsterman's technique to type coins for example is very difficult. And I guess that's because I can look at all 10 of the NGC coins that are graded MS67 and in some cases none look any good. And then there are the 2 coins graded PCGS MS67.

The 10 NGC coins all look like they are 66's, except for 2 or 3 of them which may be real 67's. The pretender 67's all sell for substantial discounts to the PCGS coins because they are 66's. While I would be a buyer of those 2 or 3 nicer NGC pieces, they almost never become available as such. What you'll you get offered are the lower quality pieces. But if one did happen to cross your path, of course you'd snap it up. What's more likely however is running into one of the PQ MS66's that PCGS has graded (26 total pop in 66). Buying that coin for half the money of the NGC67, and then upgrading it to NGC67 is probably more likely than finding those 2 or 3 solid NGC 67's. My own experience is that finding value on either end of the spectrum is very hard as there are many buyers who recognize the value and clear both ends off, leaving the less desireable middle-of-the-road coins to linger on the market.

roadrunner