Well DG we both have our opinions and we'll have to wait and see what happens. I'll make the same comment I made about Palmeiro - I really couldn't care less if McGwire gets in or not. The Hall of Fame is already so dam diluted. Too many "excellent" players in there now as opposed to, in my opinion, the HOF should only be reserved for "outstanding" players.
In 1998, if you turn each and every one of the 70 HRs McGwire hit in to a single, his OPS is still better than the league average. He was a phenomenal HR hitter; even with no HRs at all he was still not a bad hitter. (Try this with, say, Bill Buckner, and he falls way below the league average.)
As for the debate, I hope they don't admit any of the recent homer hitters until more time has passed and we have a little more perspective and maybe have more information. Maybe let the ones in who are still alive at age 55.
You stat nerds always mention OPS+, "better than league average", adjusted for park etc etc. Basically everything under the sun to try to put a players stats in proper context of the time he actually played.
Which is why I don't understand your second comment about waiting for more perspective??? That's complete opposite of your usual argument. Wait and assess his value later on, by looking at your stats that try to explain how good he was in the time he played? Why is now not the best time? Makes no sense.
Anyways, yes, he was a horrible fielder. He won his gold glove in 1990 when he was still relatively flexible and agile before transforming in to the massive blob of molasses-slow chemical goo as the juice really got flowing.
In 1998, if you turn each and every one of the 70 HRs McGwire hit in to a single, his OPS is still better than the league average. He was a phenomenal HR hitter; even with no HRs at all he was still not a bad hitter. (Try this with, say, Bill Buckner, and he falls way below the league average.)
That's just about the stupidest and most laughable arguments I've ever read. If you turn each and every one of the 70 HRs in to a single, you've got a guy that doesn't walk 190 times, so what's his precious OPS look like then?
<< <i>Which is why I don't understand your second comment about waiting for more perspective??? That's complete opposite of your usual argument. Wait and assess his value later on, by looking at your stats that try to explain how good he was in the time he played? Why is now not the best time? Makes no sense. >>
Everyone would have to stop posting entirely if it was required that you understand. Wait to see if we learn more about who was doping, how long, how much, and with what - hence the dead-by-55 comment. Nothing to do with stats.
<< <i>Anyways (sic), yes, he was a horrible fielder. He won his gold glove in 1990 when he was still relatively flexible and agile before transforming in to the massive blob of molasses-slow chemical goo as the juice really got flowing. >>
Umm, ok. McGwire, like every single other person to ever play the game, was a better fielder when he was young than when he was old. My point stands - McGwire HAD fielding skills, that they diminished when he got older being beside the point. Johnny Bench was a horrible fielder by your silly standard, for God's sake.
<< <i> In 1998, if you turn each and every one of the 70 HRs McGwire hit in to a single, his OPS is still better than the league average. He was a phenomenal HR hitter; even with no HRs at all he was still not a bad hitter. (Try this with, say, Bill Buckner, and he falls way below the league average.)
That's just about the stupidest and most laughable arguments I've ever read. If you turn each and every one of the 70 HRs in to a single, you've got a guy that doesn't walk 190 times, so what's his precious OPS look like then? >>
Busted. But, it was the only way of working in a dig at Bill Buckner I could think of in this thread. And I never in a million years thought you'd figure out that it was stupid and laughable - I won't be so lazy next time.
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
anyone catch BDSP last nite? They had a HOF voter on the show and he said yes he would vote Rose in. Rose seemed on the verge of crying when they kept brining up that Rose prob wouldn't sniff the HOF. He then asked what he could do and brought up a point that the hall has some questionable members.(cobb- known racist etc,,,) He then went on to say why can't he get a 2nd chance when murders and others get a 2nd chance. I truely feel for this guy.
I for one believe Pete is truly sorry for what he has done. Gambling is a sickness, and yet Steve Howe was an eight time loser with cocaine. Please don't bring up the #1 mortal sin of MLB, we all know gambling is numero uno no no.
Pete played hard and was a WINNER. He played in more winning games than any other player in history. He was a positive role model for children to hustle. And yes, he is the perfect example of how an average guy with little athletic ability can become a legend.
they would have to rewrite the rule for him or hed have to get voted in by the vetrans of the hall. His time to be on that ballot is gone and over with.
BTW IMO he should be let in. No way MLB should keep him out, forgive the guy already, he seems super remorsefull. Anyone that missed BDSP missed a man that seemed sadend.
<< <i>Please don't bring up the #1 mortal sin of MLB, we all know gambling is numero uno no no.
<< <i>
And yet this is where the entire argument lies. By letting in Rose after not only breaking but destroying the only rule that is posted in each and every clubhouse in the majors and then essentially laughing in the face of it, you're giving the appearance that its not as HUGE of a deal as it truly is.
Nothing would destroy this sport faster than what Rose did. NOTHING. NOTHING! NOTHING! Let gambling and all the crap that comes with it into the sport and you have nothing more than the WWE or Heavyweight boxing. Yuck. There would be no baseball.
Add to that all the crap he pulled when his book came out and he could apolgize and be as contrite as he wants to be and shed every tear he wants but he'll never get me to change my mind about this. I feel bad that he has a problem and feel bad that he doesn't seem to understand that he has a problem and that his life must truly suck and be so empty and hollow.
As bumbling and idiotic as Selig has been at times as commissioner, by not allowing Rose in on his watch will make him a decent commissioner in my eyes. We can only hope that whoever comes after him will hold as firm a stance on this vital issue in baseball.
Rose sealed his own fate, and he will never understand why it was wrong. Just listening to him on HBO Bob Costas last month, he still doesn't get. His only defense is using other players wrongs to justify his wrongs. Mom always said, two wrongs don't make a right, and that holds true here.
McGwire started out with a couple of HOF caliber years, then struggled. Then the live ball era hit, and he turned himself into Hulk Hogan at the same time, then you got the new and improved Mark McGwire. Remember, it isn't just the steroids that caused the HR's, it is many other factors too. McGwirre's steroids coincided with all those other factors to produce what we saw. Palmeiro was Mark Grace before that era hit, and McGwire was Darrell Evans(an excellent player though), but not the Ruthian McGwire we saw. Yes, McGwire was very slow in his Hogan days. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I would guess that he did not advance from first to third, or second to home at a very good rate(which would make hs walks a tad less valuable than average).
Remember all power hitters benefitted from the non-steroid factors that caused the hitting inflation in the mid 90's-now. It isn't just steroids, and we will never know exactly how much steroids helped McGwire.
If steroids are ignored, then McGwire is a very deserving Hall of Fame player(relative to his peers of course), Palmeiro, while never being rremotely close to the best player in the game, is a borderline candidate who sneaks in for longevity if steroids are ignored.
Rose is obviously a HoFer but he made his legacy. HE doesn't have to worry about being forgotten though
Comments
Amen.
As for the debate, I hope they don't admit any of the recent homer hitters until more time has passed and we have a little more perspective and maybe have more information. Maybe let the ones in who are still alive at age 55.
You stat nerds always mention OPS+, "better than league average", adjusted for park etc etc. Basically everything under the sun to try to put a players stats in proper context of the time he actually played.
Which is why I don't understand your second comment about waiting for more perspective??? That's complete opposite of your usual argument. Wait and assess his value later on, by looking at your stats that try to explain how good he was in the time he played? Why is now not the best time? Makes no sense.
Anyways, yes, he was a horrible fielder. He won his gold glove in 1990 when he was still relatively flexible and agile before transforming in to the massive blob of molasses-slow chemical goo as the juice really got flowing.
In 1998, if you turn each and every one of the 70 HRs McGwire hit in to a single, his OPS is still better than the league average. He was a phenomenal HR hitter; even with no HRs at all he was still not a bad hitter. (Try this with, say, Bill Buckner, and he falls way below the league average.)
That's just about the stupidest and most laughable arguments I've ever read. If you turn each and every one of the 70 HRs in to a single, you've got a guy that doesn't walk 190 times, so what's his precious OPS look like then?
<< <i>Which is why I don't understand your second comment about waiting for more perspective??? That's complete opposite of your usual argument. Wait and assess his value later on, by looking at your stats that try to explain how good he was in the time he played? Why is now not the best time? Makes no sense. >>
Everyone would have to stop posting entirely if it was required that you understand. Wait to see if we learn more about who was doping, how long, how much, and with what - hence the dead-by-55 comment. Nothing to do with stats.
<< <i>Anyways (sic), yes, he was a horrible fielder. He won his gold glove in 1990 when he was still relatively flexible and agile before transforming in to the massive blob of molasses-slow chemical goo as the juice really got flowing. >>
Umm, ok. McGwire, like every single other person to ever play the game, was a better fielder when he was young than when he was old. My point stands - McGwire HAD fielding skills, that they diminished when he got older being beside the point. Johnny Bench was a horrible fielder by your silly standard, for God's sake.
<< <i>
In 1998, if you turn each and every one of the 70 HRs McGwire hit in to a single, his OPS is still better than the league average. He was a phenomenal HR hitter; even with no HRs at all he was still not a bad hitter. (Try this with, say, Bill Buckner, and he falls way below the league average.)
That's just about the stupidest and most laughable arguments I've ever read. If you turn each and every one of the 70 HRs in to a single, you've got a guy that doesn't walk 190 times, so what's his precious OPS look like then? >>
Busted. But, it was the only way of working in a dig at Bill Buckner I could think of in this thread. And I never in a million years thought you'd figure out that it was stupid and laughable - I won't be so lazy next time.
Rose is not in the Hall, but people like Mark Mcgwire and Barry Bonds will be.
What a bunch of idiots.....I-D-I-O-T-S
Since they have clearly lowered the standards of ethics....I think they can let Rose in already.
MLB is a bit hypocritical when it comes to the HOF criteria.
Pete played hard and was a WINNER. He played in more winning games than any other player in history. He was a positive role model for children to hustle. And yes, he is the perfect example of how an average guy with little athletic ability can become a legend.
He'll get in ...
<< <i>
He'll get in ... >>
they would have to rewrite the rule for him or hed have to get voted in by the vetrans of the hall. His time to be on that ballot is gone and over with.
BTW IMO he should be let in. No way MLB should keep him out, forgive the guy already, he seems super remorsefull. Anyone that missed BDSP missed a man that seemed sadend.
First they announced a lifetime ban, which he agreed to.
The Commissioner at the time said in public that he could be reinstated at some future time if he changed his lifestyle and got help.
So he essentually left the door slightly open with a possibility.
Then the commissioner died unexpedly.
Then MLB changed the HOF rules to insure Pete Rose never got in.
And yet they have drug addicts, racists, alcoholics, and cheaters in the HOF.
HYPOCRACY? Yea....I think so.
<< <i>Please don't bring up the #1 mortal sin of MLB, we all know gambling is numero uno no no.
<< <i>
And yet this is where the entire argument lies. By letting in Rose after not only breaking but destroying the only rule that is posted in each and every clubhouse in the majors and then essentially laughing in the face of it, you're giving the appearance that its not as HUGE of a deal as it truly is.
Nothing would destroy this sport faster than what Rose did. NOTHING. NOTHING! NOTHING! Let gambling and all the crap that comes with it into the sport and you have nothing more than the WWE or Heavyweight boxing. Yuck. There would be no baseball.
Add to that all the crap he pulled when his book came out and he could apolgize and be as contrite as he wants to be and shed every tear he wants but he'll never get me to change my mind about this. I feel bad that he has a problem and feel bad that he doesn't seem to understand that he has a problem and that his life must truly suck and be so empty and hollow.
As bumbling and idiotic as Selig has been at times as commissioner, by not allowing Rose in on his watch will make him a decent commissioner in my eyes. We can only hope that whoever comes after him will hold as firm a stance on this vital issue in baseball.
Rose sealed his own fate, and he will never understand why it was wrong. Just listening to him on HBO Bob Costas last month, he still doesn't get.
His only defense is using other players wrongs to justify his wrongs. Mom always said, two wrongs don't make a right, and that holds true here.
McGwire started out with a couple of HOF caliber years, then struggled. Then the live ball era hit, and he turned himself into Hulk Hogan at the same time, then you got the new and improved Mark McGwire. Remember, it isn't just the steroids that caused the HR's, it is many other factors too. McGwirre's steroids coincided with all those other factors to produce what we saw. Palmeiro was Mark Grace before that era hit, and McGwire was Darrell Evans(an excellent player though), but not the Ruthian McGwire we saw. Yes, McGwire was very slow in his Hogan days. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I would guess that he did not advance from first to third, or second to home at a very good rate(which would make hs walks a tad less valuable than average).
Remember all power hitters benefitted from the non-steroid factors that caused the hitting inflation in the mid 90's-now. It isn't just steroids, and we will never know exactly how much steroids helped McGwire.
If steroids are ignored, then McGwire is a very deserving Hall of Fame player(relative to his peers of course), Palmeiro, while never being rremotely close to the best player in the game, is a borderline candidate who sneaks in for longevity if steroids are ignored.
Rose is obviously a HoFer but he made his legacy. HE doesn't have to worry about being forgotten though