Single worst tactic to scam newbies---agreed?

gyocomgd

The most effective (and oft-repeated) ruse I've seen is to offer a whole bunch of coins as a lot, stating their cumulative value is "$25,000." In this lot will be two or three American Silver Eagles, graded MS70 by an off-brand TPG such as NTC or NNC. the Silver Eagles will be 1986, 1988 or 1995, which according to the Coin Universe price guide are worth $4,000 apiece. That takes care of $12,000 right there. The rest are plain mint sets and a bunch of common-date mercury dimes, Jefferson nickels, wheat pennies and Kennedy halves, all holdered by inferior grading companies.

PCGS is complicit in the scams, because they know there is no such thing as an MS70 American Silver Eagle worth $4,000, yet inexplicably refuses to revise their price guide. I'll bet this very thing has happened 500 times for a net ripoff to the buyer of tens of thousands of dollars.

Agree or disagree? Is there a scam you think is worse?

Theop

I would think the selling of raw coins which are overgraded or cleaned (and the cleaning is not disclosed) is worse. There are probably many more raw coin ripoff auctions, and many of them intentionally show misleading pictures. Most of the auctions which quote a "value" of the collections sell for a small fraction of the stated value.

That being said, these estate-type auctions with huge values are big rip-offs and you'd be better off adding -(estate,value) to the end of your eBay searches.

Russ

<< <i>PCGS is complicit in the scams, because they know there is no such thing as an MS70 American Silver Eagle worth $4,000 >>



There are examples that have sold for $10,000. In fact, an NGC graded MS70 brought $12K a while back.

Russ, NCNE

ziggy29

It's worse to sell a coin you don't have by ripping off another seller's images.

At least with the scam you mention, the buyer gets the coins.

questor54

This is pretty darn bad, I agree.

PCGS is seemlingly complicit, but gets out of it by saying the price guide refers to 'properly graded' coins and reflects retail prices.

One way of beginning to fix this would be to have them state that tyhe guide specifically refers to PCGS coins and also provide some transparency into how the prices are calculated. Certainly, for a $4,000 ccoin they ought to be able to produce a transaction to point to which justifies the value.

On the other hand, no price guide is perfect, I have my doubts about Coin World sometimes.

Is a silver eagle in any holder at any grade worth $4,000? If someone pays that price, it is (if only for a moment). That is different than an opinion.

Coins aren't the only sector of the economy to involve lies, cheating and ignorance at times.

Cheers!

XpipedreamR

<< <i> In fact, an NGC graded MS70 brought $12K a while back. >>





And worth every cent, I'm sure

gyocomgd

<< <i>

<< <i>PCGS is complicit in the scams, because they know there is no such thing as an MS70 American Silver Eagle worth $4,000 >>



There are examples that have sold for $10,000. In fact, an NGC graded MS70 brought $12K a while back.

Russ, NCNE >>



Sure it wasn't MS71?

RedTiger

I can't imagine many newbie collectors buying a $25,000 value lot for a significant amount of money. I guess it is newbies bidding, but I don't see them as collectors. This is about the same as someone selling one single coin in a so-called third world slab and listing the PCGS values. It is similar to things such as a $50 grab lot, with about $25 of retail value in most of them. The feedback on some show many pleased buyers, so who I am to judge. The main difference between the two, is the dollar amounts involved.

I see other scams as being worse. Knowingly making and selling a modern counterfeit. Knowlingly whizzing a coin and selling it as high grade uncirculated. Knowlingly altering a coin and selling it as a key date. Selling a few low priced items to build feedback, then listing several high priced coins and skipping town with zero intention of shipping the items. All these I see as much worse.

a039

If you look at the total dollar amount from fraud it is the less expensive auctions that total up to hundreds of thousands of dollars that impact people more, for instance- more people have a hundred dollars to get ripped off than twenty five thousand dollars. The one I hate that is very prevalent is a coin in a nnc or similar grader with a quote or link to the pcgs price guide! Even a tpg such as ngc has a disparity such as this- NGC graded 1933 lincoln cent ms67 red from David Lawrence for $1350, I was rushing to the phone until I noticed the holder was not pcgs. Some people use the proof values on ms coins as well. I have generally been very lucky! Take care folks... Mark

ziggy29

<< <i>Even a tpg such as ngc has a disparity such as this- NGC graded 1933 lincoln cent ms67 red from David Lawrence for $1350, I was rushing to the phone until I noticed the holder was not pcgs. >>

Did you like the coin as what you thought was a PCGS 67RD when you first saw it? If so, why did you let the plastic stop you? Did the fact that it was in NGC plastic make it an inferior coin?

1985ChicagoBears

Any scan that tries to defraud people is the worst. I do I agree that anyone using the 2nd chance scam is the worst.

I do disagree with your comment on PCGS though. If anyone should take responsibility it should be E-Bay for allowing the auction in the first place. E-bay is horrible in dealing with these scans and/or frauds. They never follow up when scams occur.

a039

The only way to tell would be to"buy the coin not the holder". That's a little hard when the offer was made on a list sent with my last purchase. Since it would be for my registry set it would have to crossgrade. If a guarantee was made that it would cross or my money back then no risk. Is that ok? Mark

JustGotRipped

The worst tactic to scam newbies is the one most frequently cited here. Keyword spamming, and using PCGS Price guide when listing coings in what appear to be TPG holders. Far worse than selling cleaned coins, if you ask me.

flaminio

<< <i>It's worse to sell a coin you don't have by ripping off another seller's images.

At least with the scam you mention, the buyer gets the coins. >>

Actually, I think the scam gyocomgd mentioned is worse. If you never receive the coins, you know you've been scammed right off, and can take action.

If someone buys three NTC MS70 silver eagles for $12,000, they probably won't realize they've been scammed until years later -- and possibly only by their heirs.

LastExitInNY

Scam or just hoping some sucker comes along?

BlindedByEgo

<< <i>Scam or just hoping some sucker comes along? >>



I've seen this one before - check out the feedback from some of his "winners"

LastExitInNY

some of these people think we have bolts in our necks

OKbustchaser

<< <i>

<< <i>Scam or just hoping some sucker comes along? >>



I've seen this one before - check out the feedback from some of his "winners" >>



So where is the scam? Once you get past the stupid story of how he found them he is offering exactly what he says he is...an undisclosed amount of undescribed coins.

There is no scam here or in the original post, merely greedy accumulators--NOT collectors--who want something for nothing.

Old quote about con artists is true..."You cannot cheat an honest man; and the dishonest one will cheat himself!"

NO sympathy.

Jim

Edited to add...

I think the BIGGEST scam (and most dangerous to new collectors) takes place daily right here on these boards. That is the continual harping that if it is in a so-called "top tier" slab it MUST be a quality, uncleaned, undamaged and properly graded coin, and its corollary that if a coin is in a "lesser" slab or even (God forbid) raw then there must be something wrong with it. Therefore a collector doesn't have to know anything about what he is buying and can simply trust the plastic. This is total bushwaw and far more damaging to new collectors than any con artist could ever be.

dpoole

<< <i>If a guarantee was made that it would cross or my money back then no risk. >>



This approach makes no sense to me, for buyer or for seller.

For the seller, if you think the coin meets PCGS standards and it would make a difference price-wise in the market, then YOU cross it, and market it as a PCGS coin. "Guaranteeing" a cross means you might have to reimburse if PCGS was in a bad mood or you were wrong, you run the risk of having an angry, hastled customer, or you may have to confront efforts to defraud you in return.

For the buyer, you're cutting out a loss of money you'd have to recover if it didn't cross, which is obviously a lot harder to do than not sending the money in the first place.

You contact the seller, you negotiate the price if it crosses. You have the seller submit it for cross, and get the submission number so you cant track it on line.

If it crosses, consummate the deal if all remain willing. If it doesn't, no blood has been spilt.

roadrunner

Did you like the coin as what you thought was a PCGS 67RD when you first saw it? If so, why did you let the plastic stop you? Did the fact that it was in NGC plastic make it an inferior coin?

Frankly YES. NGC plastic makes many coins, esp Lincoln cents inferior to PCGS coins. This is REGISTRY fever folks. You cannot play without a PCGS label. Doesn't matter if you or I like the coin or not.
Doesn't matter if I "think" or "know" it will cross (because it may not no matter how many times tried). Some of the nicest NGC
coins will not cross no matter how many times you try. This is the
conundrum that PCGS and NGC have created. We can puff our chests and PCGS money for an NGC coin because we are experts and "know" better. But at resale time, 99% of the market doesn't know the difference, or doesn't care about the difference, and you have often have lots of work ahead of you to get your money back.
But I keep on being told that money is no object if you are a "real" collector. I've never been a "real" collector by that definition and never will be.

The fact that PCGS 67 Lincolns bring much more than NGC holders is all that needs to be said. It doesn't matter if the NGC coin is equivalent, better, or worse. The holder determines the value.
To those few (<1% of all collectors/dealers) who can grade at the level of a PCGS the playing field is somewhat more level. But the bottom line is that neither service wants to cross the other's coins and will go to great lengths to keep from doing it.

roadrunner

my3cents

I just sold 3 cigar boxes full of coins. It appears that they were purchased by seasoned collectors, not newbies.

LanLord

<< <i> Jim Edited to add... I think the BIGGEST scam (and most dangerous to new collectors) takes place daily right here on these boards. That is the continual harping that if it is in a so-called "top tier" slab it MUST be a quality, uncleaned, undamaged and properly graded coin, and its corollary that if a coin is in a "lesser" slab or even (God forbid) raw then there must be something wrong with it. Therefore a collector doesn't have to know anything about what he is buying and can simply trust the plastic. This is total bushwaw and far more damaging to new collectors than any con artist could ever be. >>



I agree with Jim on this one. I get so tired of seeing posts that have something to the effect of: "Coin is not graded, obviously a problem just waiting to be discovered".

It seems that there are an awful lot of lemmings that think just because they must have graded coins, the entire collecting community feels the same way. And it just isn't so.

Longacre

It's just bad for the hobby.

BlindedByEgo

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>Scam or just hoping some sucker comes along? >>



I've seen this one before - check out the feedback from some of his "winners" >>



So where is the scam? Once you get past the stupid story of how he found them he is offering exactly what he says he is...an undisclosed amount of undescribed coins.

There is no scam here or in the original post, merely greedy accumulators--NOT collectors--who want something for nothing.

Old quote about con artists is true..."You cannot cheat an honest man; and the dishonest one will cheat himself!"

NO sympathy.

Jim

Edited to add...

I think the BIGGEST scam (and most dangerous to new collectors) takes place daily right here on these boards. That is the continual harping that if it is in a so-called "top tier" slab it MUST be a quality, uncleaned, undamaged and properly graded coin, and its corollary that if a coin is in a "lesser" slab or even (God forbid) raw then there must be something wrong with it. Therefore a collector doesn't have to know anything about what he is buying and can simply trust the plastic. This is total bushwaw and far more damaging to new collectors than any con artist could ever be. >>




No sympathy here, either. But whoa just a sec. Scam? You bet! I define scam as an intentional misrepresentation. Promising something for nothing and having the greedy or naive take the bait does not make it less the scam. Representing that something is "old" when it is new, or "unknown" when it is clearly known, is misrepresentation. Therefore, my support of the assertion that this was (is) a scam is appropriate. Jim, you and I are smart guys - we wouldn't fall for this. I'm not calling for this sellers' removal, but IMO it's OK to call a spade a shovel.

OKbustchaser

From the auction...
" There is no telling what your safe could contain. The safes are not included, we will just open up your FORT KNOX bank and pour the coins into a zip-lock bag and mail to you. We cannot tell what is inside, so it is sort of a bold risk on your part to bid. By weight, there are probably 50- 150 coins in each. People in the past have discovered old Indian Cents and other early Lincoln pennies. This is meant to be a fun auction, for those who can't go out metal-detecting themselves. If you find something really great, we are all happy. If you don't, that was the chance you took. It is sort of a risk on your part. But if you want the fun, then go ahead and bid. "

Where is the misrepresentation? He is selling exactly what he says he is...ie a baggie of undescribed coins. No scam, just bait for people who think they might get something for nothing.

BlindedByEgo

Probably my bad - in the past he sold the banks, too. No doubt found it more profitable to ship the stuff in baggies rather than metal

Like I indicated before - not my cup of meat, this. Still and all, one man's scam is anothers good marketing play. Caveat Emptor.