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1977 Wax Box rip from BBCE
zef204
Posts: 4,742 ✭✭
OK, here's the situation. I ordered the box and it came in 2days and I was psyched to open it. I get home and rip the first pack and 7 of the 10 cards had these horrible surface wrinkles. Not just one card and not just one wrinkle. But 7 cards and 5-6 viercoese veins running from top to bottom. I open the second pack and the same thing. So I am thinking ok, maybe the top few packs have this so I take out the whole front left column and start at the bottom pack. SAME THING! I was mad that I thought I just dropped all this money and was stuck with these brutal cards. I knew I couldn't sell the packs knowing the condition of the cards so I kept ripping. Great coalation and even good centering, but the 3 clean cards per pack didn't yeild me much.
Here are some of the cards that have the veins.
Good stuff but utterly usless with the surface condition.
So I e-mail Steve Hart and tell him the condition of the majority of cards and he was shocked. I thought it may have been from the cards being in a moist enviornment bu he said that he thinks that is a printing flw and not an enviormental oops. Anyhow, he tells me that he has a lot of 77 packs with minor water damage and if I would like he would send me 36 packs of those. If I liked the condition he would send me 36 more packs and between the 72 packs I may have the equivilent of one clean wax box. He also asked if I would send him back the initial cards so he could see what they looked like. He told me that he would mail out the first set of 36 and when I got a chance to send him the wrinkled cards and keep the 30 or so cards that I wanted. He just wanted to see the condition.
I got the first set of 36 packs and some of the packs had 8 clean cards and some had none. I told Steve that this was a great arrangement and that he was right, between the 72 packs I probably would have one clean box worth. I then sent him the initial cards and he got them and this was his reply:
<< <i>Jordan,
I got the 77 box today. Wow, you weren't kidding! That has nothing to do with storage or temperature, thats a Topps issue that I have seen before, but never of that many cards!!!! >>
He then sent out the 2nd round of 36 and I got them today and just finished ripping. Some good stuff and I will start scanning and show the highlights in a bit.
I will continue to buy from Steve Hart because he wanted to make sure that I was satisfied after a bad experience with one of his boxes. He has great stuff and even better customer service and I am glad that many of the transactions on this board have been positive and have hopefully gotten him more business.
BTW, the 72 packs with the water damage had not one wrinkled card! I guess it really was a Topps print issue and a storage issue. And Steve knew this and that it wasn't his fault and still went above and beyond to rectify the situation.
More scans to come of the clean cards!
Here are some of the cards that have the veins.
Good stuff but utterly usless with the surface condition.
So I e-mail Steve Hart and tell him the condition of the majority of cards and he was shocked. I thought it may have been from the cards being in a moist enviornment bu he said that he thinks that is a printing flw and not an enviormental oops. Anyhow, he tells me that he has a lot of 77 packs with minor water damage and if I would like he would send me 36 packs of those. If I liked the condition he would send me 36 more packs and between the 72 packs I may have the equivilent of one clean wax box. He also asked if I would send him back the initial cards so he could see what they looked like. He told me that he would mail out the first set of 36 and when I got a chance to send him the wrinkled cards and keep the 30 or so cards that I wanted. He just wanted to see the condition.
I got the first set of 36 packs and some of the packs had 8 clean cards and some had none. I told Steve that this was a great arrangement and that he was right, between the 72 packs I probably would have one clean box worth. I then sent him the initial cards and he got them and this was his reply:
<< <i>Jordan,
I got the 77 box today. Wow, you weren't kidding! That has nothing to do with storage or temperature, thats a Topps issue that I have seen before, but never of that many cards!!!! >>
He then sent out the 2nd round of 36 and I got them today and just finished ripping. Some good stuff and I will start scanning and show the highlights in a bit.
I will continue to buy from Steve Hart because he wanted to make sure that I was satisfied after a bad experience with one of his boxes. He has great stuff and even better customer service and I am glad that many of the transactions on this board have been positive and have hopefully gotten him more business.
BTW, the 72 packs with the water damage had not one wrinkled card! I guess it really was a Topps print issue and a storage issue. And Steve knew this and that it wasn't his fault and still went above and beyond to rectify the situation.
More scans to come of the clean cards!
0
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Since I collect the all stars from the 77 set, I would be interested to see how you fared on those. The Bench's, Rose's and Brett's are plentiful, but on the other end of the spectrum, the Randy Jones, Kingman, Staub, and Harrah's are pretty tough to find in decent condition.
Here are some more clean cards, but not centered to great
This cracked me up when I saw it. $.15 at Woolworth.
Gum anyone?
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Sorry to hear about your bust.
Reminds me of the 2 83T vendings I got that were all OC.
I don't rip much old stuff but it is a gamble but what a rush.
Good luck on your next rip.
mike
Will, I dont know about any 9's or 10's on the stars. Some have a chance I think, the Morgan is a good one. I have just combed them all over and need to weed out the ones for grading.
Stone, All in all Steve made up for the bad box. Plus I got to rip 108 packs!
Here are some more including a Kingman for Will. These are all clean too.
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Amazing what Steve offered to do to help you out. Not many would be that giving since it's really not his problem. Truly one of the great guys in the hobby!
Here is another Harrah and a Luzinski, Jones and Hendrick.
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<< <i>When going through some raw 78's I came upon the same problem with the weird surface wrinkles so I know exactly what you are talking about.
Amazing what Steve offered to do to help you out. Not many would be that giving since it's really not his problem. Truly one of the great guys in the hobby! >>
He sure is. And that is why I will keep buying from him.
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Back in 78 and 79, when I opened a pack, I never noticed anything about the condition - blemishes, rough cuts - just saw the pic - looked for good action shots and read the stats.
It's amazing - now guys are using electron microscopes! LOL.
How the times have changed.
mike
Bosox1976
Dan
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
I will definitely drop his name to others, and buy my wax from him in the future.
I am huge on customer service in my business (not cards) - and it's awesome to see a good guy in the hobby, especially when the hobby is so full of "the opposite" dealers.
As a matter of fact, I have some paypal cash right now - lets see what steve has!
Steve is the best. I have bought from him 6 times and this is the first problem I have had and he fixed it quickly and more than fairly. I will continue to buy from him as long as he has inventory
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A few more...
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Here 'ya go!
Unbelievea-BULL
David
My eyes just about bugged out when I read your post. I also have lower-end copies (PSA 9's that are softer or slightly less attractive) for a bit less money. These two copies are a substantial cut above the norm for the issue.
Steve Hart is THE MAN! He's the best person I've met in this hobby on either side of the table. Just a gem of a guy with integrity beyond reproach.
Jordan,
Too bad about the boxes. I gave up on wax years ago from '77. I had NO success at all with my breaks when I was getting started. One box yielded 4 unique MINT cards...FOUR. They weren't even nice cards. Mint, but not what you'd want to actually look at and admire by any means. Certainly nothing special and none reside in my set today. 1977 Wax is generally brutal. Vending is the best for flat, tight, mint cards. Rack is OK and generally boasts nice colors and cleaner edges and pin-point corners. Cello is very similar to wax in terms of collation and quality. You'll probably land a gorgeous box of something soon as good guys have the card-karma.
dgf
Good tip. I have had good luck with late 70's vending and have somewhat shyed away from it since having one bad experience and reading the vending distaste here on the boards. I agree that rack is the best for most issues, which I find kind of funny because when I was a kid I was pissed if they were out of wax and I HAD to buy a rack, for the main reason that the rack had no gum. Which now as a collector is why we like racks.
I almost pulled the trigger on this and I likely would have won as my snipe was going to be much higher and gator05 seems the reputable seller. Oh well. The worst part about vending is that until you have it in front of you you can't be sure its unsearched and with some sellers thats too late.
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Here's some eye-candy from what I have scanned up...
1977 Toby Harrah
One of my favorite cards--was jacked when I pulled this one--virtually perfect with booming surfaces.
1977 Ron LeFlore
TOUGH card to get clean with no "nuclear clouds". Went through quite a few to arrive here.
1977 Randy Jones
One of the real sleepers in the set. Deceptively tough in NM/MT or better.
1977 Steve Garvey
No "blue line" from the left margin into the picture. The '77 Garvey is often plagued by that. It's like the 78 Molitor/Trammell smudge.
77 Rusty Staub
Do baseball cards get better than this??? What a great photo!
77 Thurman Munson
My favorite card. Pure gold! One tough SOB of a card to get centered and clean with registered color.
77 Mike Schmidt
Can't improve this one to date. A wonder-card!
77 Joe Morgan
Got an email from a guy who said he had the BOMB Morgan-- raw. I bought it unseen for $7. He wasn't kidding. Slight bleed of the yellow plate in the REDS margin on top detracts a bit if you look real close. I tried the "10" but it was soft and quite chipped. I'm back to my 9.
77 Dave Kingman
I've tried upgrading this one twice and--although I'm not thrilled with it--it's the best I've seen to date. LR centering drives me nuts on it.
dgf
Edited to add: I just realized the Schmidt is not an AS-card. Woops! I was just clicking on text and had no thumbnails to select from...so much for being an "expert" on 77's
Matt Morse is an awesome seller and would NEVER tamper with vending. He's a collector like us who sells cards and he's real particular.
I will say that his vending case (I broke some of it with him and bought a couple of bricks from that case myself) had exceptional corners and decent centering throughout. The result is a fair number of 10's. The downside is that the surfaces were really sub-par throughout thus producing quite a hoarde of technically sound, but somewhat unattractive 1977 topps baseball cards. I, at one time, had 18 10's in my set from that case and to date have kept only two--and those are marginal 10's. As a seller you would've done nicely--I would guess--with those, but the end-user would have been turned off...unless of course they don't know better or don't care as is often the case with many PSA "sheep"...I digress.
You'll land a BOMB soon, I can feel it. Your nose is out there sniffin'. You'll be emailing me with news of the mother-ship landing in a month or so
phil
First,my hats off to Steve Hart for doing what he did.Imo he did not have to do that and I personally dont think he should continue doing that.Let me tell you why I think so. If you are buying unopened material from years past for the thrill,excitement,and entertainment value with no expectations whatsoever then disregard anything I say here and HAVE FUN! But ....If you are buying(and opening)for investment purposes or to "pull" possible 9s and 10s then you are taking the probable chance of being disappointed.
Help me out here. What is the attraction to buying unopened wax with getting 1 or 2 cards that MIGHT be gradeable. Is it the gambling aspect? The Vegas like attraction??? Print quality was poor. The equipment wasnt hi tech. Gum staining.Water ,moisture,and environmental damage.Corner dings ,possibly searched,etc.
Think about how difficult it really is to get a card(and dont care if its 1952 or 1979)perfectly centered,no print dots/snow, with four sharp corners and no staining.Its not that easy.If you want something like that then either just buy that card already in the holder you want it in or buy a hi grade set or how about going to a show/card store and actually holding the card in your hand.Look at multiples of the card and pick the best one.
Cards came out of packs and vending with veins,creases,OC, etc. Why should Steve give away more packs? Thats the chance you take.I mean what if every card was perfect and you made a few thousand on a box.You gonna send the seller a thousand for the hell of it. No ,but you might say you would keep giving him more buisness but you get my point.The bottom line is its a gamble every time you buy and crack unopened.Im happy for you guys that got extra product cause the first gamble was SH%T but no offense the cards you scanned are not real happening. Buying unopened and keeping it unopened is whole different story though.
Before I go,let me say one more time...if you are buying to just have fun then disregard but if not ,expect
the cards not to be perfect.
let me start off by saying my neighbor's dog that barks at all hours and never shuts up and they scream his name to get him to keep quiet or come back inside is named Dakota. Coincidence?
Now to the subject at hand, you are right. It is a gamble and Steve should not be expected to do this. As I said repeatedly, he went above and beyond. That being said after I opened 2 packs and saw the condition of the cards, as far as your arguement goes, if I kept them unopened, and the only reason for which would be future value of the unopened pack vs. the ripped cards, I would have to do so with the knowledge that the cards are tainted. So am I a better man for pawning off tainted "unopened" cards because they have retained their value inside the wax wrapper or to accept a condolence from the dealer who sold them to me since I opened them and saw the condition?
Someone has to give in for the integrity of the hobby. If Steve had said "Sorry about the condition but there is nothing I can do," it would have been me that had to give. But he didn't and I didn't expect the response he gave. But let me put it to you like this, if you bought one unopened pack that was slabbed GAI 8.5 from me, and for whatever reason decided to crack it, who would you call on first when you saw the condition of the cards inside? Probably me.
Second point(not saying Steve Hart would ever do this but some sellers may), the dealer gets the box and opens one pack and sees they all have the veins. He replaces the one pack with another pack of the 100's he has sitting around and sells the box as an "Unsearched" box. Now he is pawning off tainted goods and since I paid for something the dealer knew was bad, in your reasoning the buyer should take the hit because he took the gamble.
Its a catch 22 in many ways you look at it. Who is responsible and can anything be done? I have taken many a hit my days, buying a raw mint 59 Aaron for it to only come back trimmed for one. And that card is a permanent fixture in my collection because I could never in good conscience sell tainted goods. You want to know what else, if I sold this to someone raw and they told me it came back trimmed, I would give them a refund and take the card back.
I think the issue here dakota is that you don't know good customer service nor see the reason for it. Anyone in sales knows that repeat business is the best business. Steve knows this business better than any of us and he thought this was a amicable solution to an unfortunate transaction. That is good customer service that went above and beyond and will garner more business. I would never expect, nor should anyone reading this, that he will react the same way to the next problem, but I thought it was good business and wanted to let people know how good and honest he was nad hopefully get him some more business.
I don't mean any disrespect and am only playing devil's advocate on the most part. But if you think good customer service is unneseccary I can only hope that you don't deal with customers on a regular basis.
Jordan
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1. Thurman Munson
2. Toby Harrah
3. Randy Jones
4. Rusty Staub
I need to upgrade the following:
1. Mark Fidrych, SGC 84 (under graded!)
2. Dave Kingman, SGC 86
Also interested in Minnesota Twins in Mint condition....
Erik
Thanks for checking 'em out. This wouldn't be as fun for me if I couldn't be proud of my set and brag on some of these. If they just sat in stacks on a counter top and nobody enjoyed lookin' at them--that would be a shame. You obviously recognize how unusual those copies are. I would categorize the Concepcion and Luzinski as comparable copies. The others are not for sale as they are my "set" cards currently.
I'll tell you this, I would never list those on eBay with 9.99 opening bids
I do open product periodically from 1977 and will keep you in mind if/when I find a keeper. My next crack will likely be early 2006. I'll pick up vending most likely. Right now I'm unable to locate any case numbers that I'm confident about...but I will.
One last time, check out the color on that Munson! It practically glows in the dark. It has an OPC-type of surface that you would associate with a lighter stock or a tiffany. If it could make gravy and park the car properly, I'd marry it.
dgf
FWIW,
Dakota and Zef, I truly see both sides. I think it comes down to a case-by-case basis and a judgement call. If Jordan was a regular complainer or had a track record of being a pain in the arse, etc. Steve would've punted. Steve IS a good businessman that does understand when he needs to make an investment in people to ensure future dealings and maintenance of his products' integrity. He reads these boards, knows who's who and in many cases what they're working on and what they're all about, etc. He knows I'm extremely fussy, call him too often and a general good guy, but a little clingy. He also knows I'm a huge supporter and value his position as a hobby leader. I don't MEAN to hold him up to hobby-God standards, but the fact is, there just are not too many of him around in this or any other business for that matter.
Dakota, you're point is well taken. Unopened is a crappola-shoot for sure and we need to manage our collective expectations when approaching it for re-sale. I have not opened too many years from all of the 70's, but have opened quite a bit of 1977-1989. Here's how I would rank them from toughest to easiest (none are easy) for grading purposes...
1. 1979 & 1977 Tie--both exceedingly tough. You'll say "Oh, so close...If only..." more than you'll like...guaranteed.
2. 1981 - harder than most people think. Chip, chip, chip...
3. 1978 - " hello, tilts and miscuts"... "Is that a fish-eye or a bullet-hole?"
4. 1986 - downright challenging
5. 1980 - deceptively difficult centering TB--also tilts o' plenty
6. 1982 - Bland color and centering issues abound. Diamonds in the rough.
7. 1987 - Soft stock = mushy cards with often disheartening surfaces. Can be fantastic when they're "on"!
8. 1983 - generally bright and clean--chipping & centering issues
9. 1984 - can be gross or gorgeous
10. 1985- Huge margins make well-centered cards appear OC.
11. 1988- See 1985, but the colors are awesome on this stuff. Extra stock is a problem like '86 & '87
12. 1989- Can be gross or gorgeous--generally sharp. Have 1980-type centering issues.
dgf
I appreciate your thoughtful comments and perspective.You made some great points.Maybe you misunderstood but my thoughts were more geared towards buying and opening unopened wax and not customer service.If you knew me ....you definitely would feel stupid about your comment regarding my customer service but thats ok and I dont take offense.
I was nicely trying to say how unintelligent it is to spend a ton of cash on unopened wax thinking you are gonna pull some Gem Mint cards.
What did you spend for that box??? Next time just send me the money and Ill send you a boat load of clean centered gradeable cards from that year.How would that be for customer service???Im serious. What was your cost per card on the 77s? Ill even send you stars and a Murphy to boot.Or contact DGF.Ill bet he could blow your mind with some cards if you sent him $500 bucks.
Your right , the DOG is barking and wants to come inside. Being the Dog is much better than being sheep.
BAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
1977 was the only year I hadn't opened from 1977-1990 and wanted to give it a whirl. I am trying to build/ upgrade my raw sets from all those years with the hopes of one by one getting them slabbed. I love the 76 and 75 sets too but don't think I will be busting any product because from the prices I have seen, that thrill is too expensive for me.
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<< <i>Or contact DGF.Ill bet he could blow your mind with some cards if you sent him $500 bucks.
>>
Interesting. A NICE vending box typically yields between 30-50 MINT cards. They typically sell between 300-400 when purchased individually.
I just sold 90 PSA mint 9's and 20 PSA 10's (no risk--already graded with NQ's) for 900. Take away the the grading fees and those babies would have sold for $3 per card from me raw. That would have been aprox. $350 delivered for some awfully nice cards. I never thought about it before. Interesting point. I'm not sure if the unopened is over-priced or the opened is underpriced...it certainly doesn't pencil.
dgf
Pm me if you ever get going on the 76s. I would be happy to send you some real nice cards for grading.
Dgf,
Great question.My vote is opened is undervalued in hi grade.
I just spent $425.00 for an unopened 84 football box and another $125.00 on a 85 unopened football waxbox and one of them came from steve at (bbc), Out of all 72 packs I pulled one elway (has a shot at an 8) and the rest prob diamond cut, scratches, o/c , and corner dinged. Do I feel that I lost, no, not really it was entertainment for me, in fact I just bought another box of each, why? Because I love the fun of ripping the packs, I have a rather extensive unopened graded collection, and I wont "bust" any of them because they are for investment purposes and do serve as some sort of enjoyment incased in the plastic.
As far as getting the 9 or 10, I seriously doubt that will happen in the packs I rip. If I do get so fortunate as to gain a card in the packs it only is an added bonus for which I wasnt expecting.
lets say I did pull a 10 elway rc, should I call steve and split the 1800.00 the card is worth? I doubt it, so buying the wax is the risk I am willing to take.
Dakota hit the nail on the head, Hi-Grade raw is far more undervalued (unless in a dealers showcase or Bradshaws binder) vs. unopened packs.
edited for spelling
Link To Scanned 1952 Topps Cards Set is now 90% Complete Plus Slideshows of the 52 Set
It's just smart business to do something like (esp in a business where trust and reputation is so important). The referrals and repeat business will more than offset the cost in the long run IMO. He's been in business for a long time....obviously he's knows what he's doing.
Yes in the long run the repeat buisness will always offset any small loss and if I was going to buy unopened it would only be from him.
But my point is that when you are buying from him you have the comfort of knowing you are getting unsearched and untampered product.
Beyond that though SHOULD be out of his hands and control. He wasnt there (who knows ,maybe he was!) when Topps produced and packaged the product. He cant control what comes outta there.I think its wonderful that he makes sure the buyer has a wonderful experience with unopened.And as Dgf mentioned he probably does do it on a case by case basis.The guys that buy from the boards here are solid and I can see that. Its a crap shoot period.
<< <i> Its a crap shoot period. >>
No doubt about it. But man is it fun!~
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dgf - thanks for the words of wisdom. was that deal you mentioned for '77's (90 psa 9's etc.) ? that munson sure is nice . is the harrah located in one of the corners on the uncut sheet? any idea where i could find uncut sheets from '77?
Yes, the deal was 77's. The only place I know uncut sheets are located are in Fritsch's warehouse and in Washington state at Terry Ihlefeldt's house...a.k.a. "waxme". We all know what a hoot it can be to buy from that weirdo. I'm not aware of Harrah's placement on the sheet. I would suggest no, but I'm not certain.
dgf
I have a sweet 77 Kingman that is off at PSA. It is dead centered! That is so rare since I have 12 that are O/C. It should get a solid 9. I have another one that probably 57/43 L/R that will get an 8 (IMHO).
I also have a raw Harrah off at PSA that might squeeze into an 8 holder. It is about 70/30 L/R and not really off the quality that I want for my set, but it is the best raw I have found since I started this set. I also have the Staub in California. Might be an 8 too...if I am lucky.
I also collect the 1981 all stars and have bought a fair amount of unopened from that year. You are right that that is a tough issue to get in mint condition. The centering is just horrible! I have most of that set in mint 9 but am still looking for a nice Fred Lynn, Gossage, Sutter, and Carlton.
I will keep you in mind. I will. If your Harrah misses the NM/MT mark, I'll be able to accommodate you with a NM/MT raw copy. The LeFlore I have scanned above is my MINT 9. I'm not sure why it's in a 9 holder, but that's the game I guess...and why I retired my set. If the corners got any sharper on that card they'd be sheet-cut. Clor, focus, centering, print quality, reverse centering, smell, astrological sign, it's all there
dgf
BTW, I just looked at your auctions again for the Davey Boy and Bull. Did you major in English? You have the art of writing a description down pat. Not that the product needs bolstering in this case, but pointing out things like the black under the position flag and the quality of the all star banner printing builds the card up nicely.
Hopefully I don't get outbid on either of those bad boys. I am going to have to ask the boss if I can work some overtime. Oh wait, I am the boss, I might have to give myself a raise...
From Dave Magellan's set........................................ 2 Nine's on the Evans and 12 on the Yount
ON ITS WAY TO NEWPORT BEACH, CA 92658
The black ink is a dead giveaway on 77's. If the color under the position flag is jet black and shiny, the card is well-struck. If it's not, I generally stop looking at the other attributes.
Straw,
Yes, indeed. Although there have been 7 PSA 9's of Yount on eBay in the last two years. Five of them were auctioned within two months and by the time they ended they were selling for 18-25 bucks. You know how eBay is. If the card is seen more than once in an average life-span it sells for peanuts.
The Yount is a tough card...very tough. Easily his toughest. There is no contest. The 1977 is to Yount as the 1976 is to Brett. The other star card that really can rock the boat in terms of difficulty would be Tom Seaver. The Jim Hunter can also make you pull your hair out. Louisiana Lightnin' anyone...these cards are VERY seldom seen. For all the Yankees guys collecting and all the product being broken and all the Yankees spam, these cards just don't come up too often. If fact, there have only been three Guidry's in the last four years and I listed two of them.
Terrific
Catfish
Lightnin'
I believe that all 3 of these cards are 10-worthy based on what PSA's standards are over the past couple of years. Of course, these were graded three to five years ago. The Guidry measures a touch low at 54/46 but it's close to their standard. The corners on these show no hints of wear under 10x scrutiny and the reverses are centered like the fronts. I just can't figure PSA out. I know I'll see a seaver with a tilt and a fish-eye in a 10 holder with a chip on a corner and pd. Again, that's why I retired my set, but continue to collect and share it.
The Evans is a bad hombre as well for sure. One of the real toughies. Good call John as those cards are very underappreciated.
dgf
Thanks for sharing
Julen
RIP GURU