Email from PCGS for lunch & discuss 100-point grading scale?

OldTimeHunter

Heres the email i just received: 100 point grading scale????
GRADING - Now and in the Future



As a supporter of the Professional Coin Grading Service, you and a guest are invited to attend a PCGS luncheon in Orlando, Florida.



Join us for a very special panel discussion about the history of grading, the grading scale, and the future of grading which will also include an open discussion on whether or not the rare coin market should adopt a 100-point grading scale. The panel will consist of several noted numismatists including David Hall, one of the founders of PCGS. The discussion will be moderated by PCGS President, Ron Guth, and will include a question and answer period.



Friday, January 6, 2006



11am - 1pm



The Rosen Plaza Hotel

Salon 5/6

9700 International Drive

Orlando, FL 32819

(408) 996-9700



Please RSVP BJ Searls, bsearls@collectors.com, with your name and that of your guest by December 21st.

coinguy1

Posted by Mr. Hall on Oct. 11th of this year on the Q&A forum:

<< <i>I don't believe the numismatic community is ready for a 100 point scale >>

Perhaps PCGS is attempting to get "the numismatic community ready".

I believe that PCGS will end up pushing strongly for it, later, if not sooner. I can see the press release now - "PCGS adopts 100 point grading scale due to widespread demand by collectors and dealers alike"

Barry

If they do it, a boycott is in order...

monsterman

well i knew this was coming , its a fishing expedition to see if the public is smart enough to not partake in their own exploitation by the greed of wallstreet

an excrept from a board accross the street and down the road

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

thus the " new plan "

make money by being really tuff thus causing resubmissions....BY THE THOUSANDS...which when looked at by an outside observer one would think thats ok because logic tells you to watch for the opposite of being too loose or worse.. being chummy with certain insiders....but tuff not being a problem....nobody ( the government ) sees that as a problem and doesnt even look there

so now a plan to make 50 million grading all the coins has expanded and gone to wallstreet with a new busines plan to make 500 million....hello


the dealers will make money because buying and selling is what they do, they make a spread and the numbers are inconsequential BUT THE SERVICES WILL SIPHON OFF HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS FROM THE HOBBY`S CAPITALIZATION ALL BECAUSE OF WALLSTREET GREED. TH SAME GUYS WHO BRING YOU ENRON, TYCO,AND CPN

JUST WHY DO YOU THINK THEY WANT TO DO THIS TO HELP THE HOBBY

GREED JUST PLAIN GREED!!!!!!PERIOD

monsterman

coinguy1

<< <i>ALL BECAUSE OF WALLSTREET GREED. >>

Not all because of Wallstreet greed, Gregg - others would/will deserve "credit" too.

RayJay

Maybe they need money for the William Miller lawsuit

ROBERTB

<< <i>Maybe they need money for the William Miller lawsuit >>

291fifth

These are feelers for an attempt to effectively erase nearly twenty years of slabbing. Just say no!

coinfreak499

It's all about the money. If they change the scale than all the grading books will be obsolete causing new ones to be printed which will make collectors fork over more money. Also, if the 100 point scale is widely used, people may have to send their coins in for re-grades. This move would translate into more profit for PCGS.

fcloud

$5. per coin reholder would be one heck of a lot of money! Regrading fees would be even more!

I hope they leave it alone.

LanLord

I propose a 10 point scale!

Who needs 100 points, 10 is enough!

1 - ugh
2 - ugh minus one sigh
3 - rotten but not horrible
4 - getting better
5 - OK
6 - better that 5
7 - hey, nice
8 - Wow
9 - Dang
10 - DANG!

monsterman

a little more insight

both services will have to move to it at the same time or risk stepping off a cliff.....here in texas when gas was cheap ( lol ) the different oil companies competed with each other...it eveloved to one company giving away their carwash for a 10 gallon purchase and all others had to follow suit or lose business.....problem was after a few years they had worn their carwashes out and had to replace equipment............so if shell had 100 carwashes in houston someone had to go to the boss and say " hey i need to spend 30 million to replace our equipment...oh btw we dont get any revenue for it...its just wasted money".....to which the boss answered...........get the fook out of my office

you see they deperately want to start changing but it had to be done by all oil companies at the same time or risk market errosion which is a no no in that biz...for any reason

problem was not all companies carwashes wore out at the same time and if everyone did do it at the same time .. so it went on and on until a bright guy camw up with a plan....off to the state capital he went and told legislators he could increase the states revenue by a million dollars a day.............needless to say he got their attention....he told the legislators his plight and said.....we need to start charging money for our carwashes and you need to help and for your help you wil bring the state in 365 million a year and then you will get re elected

how the state helped the oil companies was they made it a law that you could not give away something perpetually without paying the state sales tax that was due on the value...........thus all the oil companies problems were solved ....the state started charging sales tax and the oil compnies passed it on in unison to the people...thus we now pay for carwashes instead of getting them for free

and if both services dont change at the same time the other walks off a cliff by themselves

monsterman

UncleWiggly

<< <i>If they do it, a boycott is in order... >>



Of PCGS? Or the coin hobby? Does anybody know how the other TPGs stand on this? NGC? ANACS? What is ICG going to do? If anybody is interested, James Taylor of ANACS is going to be taking questions on www.coincommunity.com in January. This is something I am going to ask him about.



Jerry

UncleWiggly

<< <i>I propose a 10 point scale!

Who needs 100 points, 10 is enough!

1 - ugh
2 - ugh minus one sigh
3 - rotten but not horrible
4 - getting better
5 - OK
6 - better that 5
7 - hey, nice
8 - Wow
9 - Dang
10 - DANG! >>



How about just a 2 point scale

1 = That's a really nice coin

2 = That's a really stupid coin



Jerry

monsterman

>>>>Does anybody know how the other TPGs stand on this? NGC? ANACS? What is ICG going to do?

thats easy.............NOW MATTER WHAT SPIN THEY PUT ON IT...ITS ALL ABOUT SUCKING MORE MONEY OUT OF THE HOBBY

ENOUGH IS ENOUGH..........ITS BAD ENOUGH THEY HAVE INCREASED SUBMISSIONS 10 FOLD BY THE USE OF GRADEFLATION

NOW THEY WILL TRY TO RAPE 400 MILLION MORE FOR THEIR GREEDY A$$ES

AND ALL SERVICES WILL BENEFIT SO ALL WILL DO IT IF THEY CAN

ITS ALL ABOUT GRED

opps sorry for the caps....but i dont want to restart to type

monsterman

coinkat

as usual, I guess I need to show up and just say the invitation was lost in the mail...

What's this about William Miller? Why would Barry Goldwater's running mate in 1964 want to sue anyone?

ROBERTB

I fear this is a done deal. PCGS, actually CU needs to keep profits up for shareholders. This will enable that. Our hobby is no longer such. It's a plain business. Unfortunately the other TPG's will follow I'm quite certain. It would be stupid not to, financially. The fact that this is even being proposed is about the last straw for me with the grading companys. I'm thru with them. No more submissions. Why bother, in a year or two they'll all be inadequately graded. I'll continue to buy coins slabbed that I don't have confidence in grading, but, no more submissions. It makes me want to puke.

This is going to happen folks. I'm fairly certain.

poptopsRus

I refuse to convert to the metric system.

BBN

<< <i>What is ICG going to do?

>>


I don't know what ICG will do but ACG won't have to do anything. That coin marked "MS-67" in the ACG holder will finally be accurate on a 100 scale if left in that 67 slab.

Curley

Those of you with small children should pull Dr. Seuss' "Star-Bellied Sneaches" book off the shelf and read it.

robertpr

<< <i>I propose a 10 point scale!

Who needs 100 points, 10 is enough!

1 - ugh
2 - ugh minus one sigh
3 - rotten but not horrible
4 - getting better
5 - OK
6 - better that 5
7 - hey, nice
8 - Wow
9 - Dang
10 - DANG! >>



That scale is already in use in bars, high schools, gyms, stores, and other social gathering places around the country and beyond.

monsterman

>>>I don't know what ICG will do but ACG won't have to do anything. That coin marked "MS-67" in the ACG holder will finally be accurate on a 100 scale if left in that 67 slab.



now that is funny

monsterman

vam44

I actually voted for the 100 point scale before I voted against it!

JRocco

I would love to see a grader---even a real good one, grade a coin an 86, then come up with an 86 the next 5 times the coin is cracked out and resubmitted for an 88.

BBN

True Rocco. This opens it up to being too opinionated and vague in expert grading.

CoinOnTheCob

What is the benefit of a 100-point grading scale?

UncleWiggly

I wonder if there is even such a thing as "coin hobby" anymore. Where's the hobby in all of this? How many people are going to attend the lunch? How many people are going to voice their opposition to this?



Jerry

Bear

Listen, I am an American citizen.I am used to being screwed, blued and tatooed

by our various local, state and federal governments. Whats one more to add to

the list?

BBN

Makes me want to go back to building raw circulated sets. I may seriously do that if this happens.

Barry

<< <i>I would love to see a grader---even a real good one, grade a coin an 86, then come up with an 86 the next 5 times the coin is cracked out and resubmitted for an 88. >>


Can't do it now with a 66.

stman

Heh, only buy "PCGS Coins" Haha. As soon as some of the BIG dealers figure out the right way to capitalize on all this....
They will convince all their sheep and all the suck-ups will follow. Remember.... PCGS is best.... Only buy "PCGS Coins." LMAO

JRocco

<< <i>Heh, only buy "PCGS Coins" Haha. As soon as some of the BIG dealers figure out the right way to capitalize on all this....
They will convince all their sheep and all the suck-ups will follow. Remember.... PCGS is best.... Only buy "PCGS Coins." LMAO >>



Take it one step further stman, how long would it be before NGC went to the 100 point scale- or else, think of all the money that would be left on the table without the crossover games. What ever happened to knowing your series yourself---I guess it would be too much work to have to learn how to grade, or ID a "real" coin if some of the "collectors" ever had to do it themselvs. We all know a coin can't be real if it isn't in a PCGS slab right???

marmac

It really isn't surprising that PCGS or NGCwould want to move towards this new system, afterall, they have to keep the volume coming through the front door. Special designations, regrades, registry sets, NGC's multi holder, picture options, these are all designed to keep a finite group of coins coming through the door over and over.

I personally think it is a horrible idea and will split the hobby, add to the existing grading system maybe, but change the scale- Bad move in the long run.

DickyBetz

There is no reason at all to change the grading system. It is just plain pointless and ridiculus.

Myqqy

So......... do any TPG's care what the collectors feel about this proposed bit of lunacy??

NumisOxide

They should just keep it as is, 1-70. Changing over to a 100-point grading scale might cause a lot of confusion among collectors. IMO.

Numismatics

IMO, the scale of 100 makes more senses than the current 70. So changing to 100-point is not a bad thing to me.

BlindedByEgo

<< ALL BECAUSE OF WALLSTREET GREED. >>

One man's greed is another man's good investment.

I say that, although I would prefer to stick with the somewhat archaic and clumsy Sheldon 1-70

SGS will have to change too many slabs to MS100

monsterman

barry

>>>>Can't do it now with a 66.

sure they can....everytime but by doing so they would leave 10s of millions of dollars on the table....the purposely and intensionally undergrade..............they create instant wealth...and they wont do it for one fee.............im not talking about a 65 generic morgan to a 66...im talking about an 89cc from a 64 to a 65..........instant 300,000 in wealth..........they arent doing it for you...end of story...now if you submitted 300,000 worth of grading fees last month they might!!!

its all about corporate greed................MONEY

PERIOD

monsterman

numi

>>>>IMO, the scale of 100 makes more senses than the current 70. So changing to 100-point is not a bad thing to me.

tell me why you said that!!!!!im lost why!!

monsterman

*************************************************

coinjp


>>>>They should just keep it as is, 1-70. Changing over to a 100-point grading scale might cause a lot of confusion among collectors. IMO

same question.............cause a lot of confusion among collectors.....whats up with that..........it wont be confusing....it will be a learning curve..........actually confusing is not the term

getting bu$$ fooked is more like it....the services will have a field day before the collectors learn what the services call a 86 or 87

this is nothing more than a bu$$ fooking

and its driven by greed...................anyone...and i mean anyone who is not financially connected to a grading service and is for a 100 scale is beyond ignorant ...

simple enough!!!...

unless your a grading service..............in that case anyone and i mean anyone who does not want a 100 point system is beyond ignorant

its all about the money.............greed

howmany time do i have to say that

money.............greed
money.............greed
money.............greed
money.............greed
money.............greed
money.............greed
money.............greed
money.............greed
money.............greed
money.............greed
money.............greed
money.............greed
money.............greed


look im not going to give a ga ga example here....just a normal one

when you have your house appraised by 3 different appraisers....it will come back like so

1)...232
2) ..239
3) ..235

so why would you want to spend the money on a fourth or fifth....so they can come back and say 236 and 234...come on
they all are in the ball park

but when your coin comes back

1) 66....1200
2) 65.....300
3) 66.....1200

and you know dam well its a

67......8,000

you get another appraisal...they know if your smart youll resubmit...if your not oh well..........in the trade i have seen 5 difernt coins all submit the same coin 5 time each for 25 fees and get back

66
64
65
66
64

looking for a 67.............and these upgraders are just as good as the graders..or better

ok hows this one ...i know a guy who submitted a coin 40 times..thats 4,000 in fees...actually less as big submitters get a 15% rebate at the end of the month...anyway no soap...but he played....the coin was a 65 180,000 coin...if it upgraded it would be 350,000 coin

so tell me...you work for the grading service....and im telling you if you create 190,000 owrth of wealth for a guy for 100 less rebate you wont be working long

actually its not the grader but the finalizer im talking about........think with me here......if you properly graded all the coins that were submited for 4 weeks straight...i mean grade them properly

here is what would happen

1) tens of millions of dollars would be created in a month.....let say 50 million

2) the first month would be on fire for dealers...selling coins everywhere

3) next few weeks the buyers would be out of money

4) thus the buying drys up

5) thus the dealers cashflow would stop..and so would the submissions

6) next month youd be looking for a job

simple as that..........look....this is a cartelled game where as the services control the wealth creation they are not going to kill the golden egg.................they will not create wealth for you for nothing ( aka a 100 fee )

this is a game akin to darwinizm.......survival of the fitest........if you cant hunt you cant eat......plain and simple

how collectors win is

1) by great coins

2) time in the market

over the years with gradeflation your great coins will of evolved from great coins to absolutely no brainers.....and then they will work and you will be rewarded for your abilities..............if you buy slock.......you might have to wait 30 years...if you buy quality...it might be a few years

am i clear

monsterman

Elcontador

I think it's called, "bend over, I think I love you."

seanq

<< <i>So......... do any TPG's care what the collectors feel about this proposed bit of lunacy?? >>




I sorta figured that's what the lunch invitations were about. I got one too, BTW, which I thought was pretty funny considering I doubt I've spent as much as $1,000 with PCGS in my lifetime.


Sean Reynolds

Cameo CC

The luncheon should shed light on the thinking of the collectors and PCGS.

I would like to have several questions answered.

1. Is the goal to have a more accurate grade attached to the coin (instead of terms like PQ)?
2. How will this 100 point system address the attractiveness of the coin (some have attempted terms like “W” for white, “T” for toned, “B” for bright or even the “*” for star)?
3. What price difference will collectors realize between the 70 and the 100 point system (Is a coin worth more graded in the 70 or 100 point system)?
4. Will PCGS have the Trademark on the 100 point system?

In theory, I like the idea but in practice I am not sure it will work. It may be a little too messy for me.

Todd

monsterman

todd


>>>>>In theory, I like the idea but in practice I am not sure it will work. It may be a little too messy for me

in practice??? its just about restructuring the system to MAKE MONEY FOR THE SERVICES

they purposely undergrade coins right now because they dont want to create wealth without sharing!!!!!!!!!!!!!cant you see that

think about it

a pcgs hopuse appraiser comes to your house

pay your fee......your house grade 66 and the sheets say 250

pay your fee again because you have a great view ...66-250,000
pay your fee again because you have tiles bathrooms...66-250,000
and again because you have a pool
and again because you have a modern kitchen
and again because you have a huge master
and again
and again
and again
and again.........67...new value 560,000

come on...its all about creating wealth for you and they want to share

at least now we have a ceiling of 70...and the business plan that they have is at the end of the line........and unless the make a change the business plan is a dead end

HAVE YOU NOT HEARD OF THE FAIRY TALE OF THE WOLV IN SHEEPS CLOTHING

ITS ALL ALBOUT GREED AND BIG MONEY

AND WHO WINS..........EVERYONE ON THEWW OTHER SIDE OF THE FENCE

AND WHO PAYS....ALL THE COLLECTORS

HOW................BY SUCKING SEVERAL HUNDRED MILLION OUT OF THE THE MARKET THROUGH FEES!!!!!!!!!!!!THAT MONEY COULD OF GONE TOWARD DEMAND AND HIGHER PRICES FOR ALL OUR COINS

PCGS HAS PAYS THEIR GRADERS UP TO 500,000 PER YEAR!!!!!!!!!AND SEVERAL EXECUTIVES DO THE SAME.........AND THEY HAVE 70 MILLION IN THE BANK NOW..........THEY HAVE ALREADY GROSS PROFITED SEVERAL HUNDRED MILLION FROM THE COLLECTORS ALREADY...............WOULDNT IT BE NICE TO HAVE YOUR COINS GRADED ONCE JUST LIKE YOUR HOUSE IS!!!!!!!!!!!!

****ITS ALL ABOUT THE MONEY....PERIOD

IrishMike

Greg you forgot about inflation and the rise is housing values attached to that.

Cameo CC

Monsterman,

I acknowledge the money issue is (major) part of PCGS’s decision in this matter.

What are your thoughts outside of the money issue?

How do you think the coin industry would greet a 100 point grading system?
Would it be a benefit to all of us?

Todd

coinguy1

<< <i>How do you think the coin industry would greet a 100 point grading system?Would it be a benefit to all of us? >>

Todd, can YOU see any benefits to collectors? I sure can't, though it would be great, financially for the grading companies.

It is abundantly clear that the subjectivity involved in grading leads to an obvious problem with consistency using the 70 point scale we have now. Switching to a 100 point scale and thereby requiring or pretending that grading be even more precise would be absurd.

jbsteven

aside from the money making part of it I think it is a good idea. 5-10 years from now it won't be that big of a deal.

I do like that there will be more room for a accurate grade. Right now there are only 10 grades for a mint state coin which I think is somewhat restrictive. The one point difference makes a 10 fold price increase will go away which is a good thing.

In the short term it is great for crack out artists. Long term for crack out artists it is bad since the one point bump makes them 10x the $$$$ on the coin and that would go away.

RYK

For the moment, assume that we need more grades (I personally do not think so). Why not stay within the 70 point scale and expand it ton use more numbers and decimals, as necessary. Examples might include EF-48 and MS-64.5. That way, coins that are already slabbed can peacefully coexist with newly graded coins. I think it would be disastrous for the marketplace for coins graded in the old system and new system to be bought and sold together.

Examples:

"Now, let's see: is that a 9 digit serial number (old system) or 10 digit serial number (new system)? Or is it the other way around?"

"I'm sorry your beloved husband spent so much on that PCGS-68 Morgan $1. It says right here on my April 2007 PCGS pricesheet that a EF-68 is only worth $11.00."

"I sent my 55-D $5 PCGS XF-40 (old system) for a regrade, and now it is a VF-60 (new system). Can they do that?"

Cameo CC

Mark,

First, I have not talked to PCGS about this topic.

In my opinion, the one benefit would be to further qualify the quality of a specific coin.

For example, if you were to keep the same grades from 1 to 59 and then modify the grades from MS60 to 70, you could have a better representation of the quality of a coin within a specific grade.

Here is a possible 100 point structure:
1 to 58 the same
MS60 = MS60 to 63
MS61 = MS64 to 67
MS62 = MS68 to 71
MS63 = MS72 to 75
MS64 = MS76 to 79
MS65 = MS80 to 83
MS66 = MS84 to 87
MS67 = MS88 to 91
MS68 = MS92 to 95
MS69 = MS96 to 99
MS70 = MS100

Instead of having a “PQ” designation, one would use the above grades would provide this designation.

When NGC tried to use the Star designation, it did not work. The coin industry did not see any extra value in this designation. The same is true for the “T” toned, “W” white or “B” Bright designation.

But again, I do not know if the coin industry will accept this.

Another benefit would be the PCGS registry set.

Just my thoughts.

Todd

monsterman

todd

>>>>How do you think the coin industry would greet a 100 point grading system?
Would it be a benefit to all of us

personally i think the system we have is great.....

20% luster
20% strike
20% eye appeal
40% surface preservation

but

the market is evolving and ive seen it for 20 years...and that change is in only one thing....EYE APPEAL.......since day one i have always thought the future of coins to evolve towards beauty......like art

and i can assure you i have done just that buy beauty.....i love monster toned coins...but there are also beautifull white ones whose design and luster make it a headlight

as i said the market is evolving towards beauty which means the servies might take away 5% from the 40% surface preservation and put it on eye appeal becasue that what the market wants

what i would do is install a system like bonds

66
66 A +
66 A ++
66 A +++

i would do this to reflect a 20 year movement toward beauty....yes its subjective...yes it is an opinion.........

but

my take is....i buy beautiful coins toned or white.......i ask my wife who knows nothing about grading coins and she knows beauty when she sees it!!!!!!!!!!!! and even she could look at enough coins from an eye appeal stand point and she

66.......thats ok
66 A+....thats nice
66 A ++ boy i really like that
66 A+++ holly cow wow what a coin

the disconnect here is

one guy buys beautifull coins and has 400,000 in his collection..he has to pay double sheet but he buys the coins everyone wants

another guy buys the excat same coins in the exact same grade ...coin for coin....but they are butt ugly and he buys price only...the coins that go hunting for buyers

he has only 190,000 in his coins yet he is tied with the first guy on the registry

yet the real appreciation for the quality for the 2 sets will be truely shown in the scoreboard of life.............dollar value

and thats the difference...we all want to be admired for our abilites...thats why they have scoreboards....this is not the ymca where everyone gets to play in the game no matter how bad you are or how many times your lack opf abilites lets the other team score...........this is adulthood

we all want to be recognized on the scoreboard!!!!!!!!!!

and if anyone doesnt tkink so ...join a commune

monsterman