Omar Vizquel in the Hall?
digicat
Posts: 8,551 ✭✭
in Sports Talk
He just picked up his 10th Gold Glove at shortstop today. Only Ozzie Smith has more with 13.
He's silent with a bat, but when he picks up a glove, that's when he really goes to work.
He's silent with a bat, but when he picks up a glove, that's when he really goes to work.
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SD
Comparing him to Ozzie Smith, Vizquel's a slightly better hitter, and their stacks of Gold Gloves and the quality of their defensive stats put them on even ground, but...
All that combined with Ozzie's 15 All Star appearances pushed him over the top as a 1st ballot HoFer.
Vizquel only has 3 All Star appearances.
I wonder how badly that'll hurt him.
WTB: 2001 Leaf Rookies & Stars Longevity: Ryan Jensen #/25
I think he's got a shot if he plays a few more years and continues to collect some hardware.
As fast as he is, as tough as he was to strikeout (which we all know is a very important stat), the nice career BA, and obviously the fielding make him tough to dismiss immediately.
That said though, I still don't see him getting a whiff of HOF consideration. Fast, slick fielding, (often Latin American) shortstops are becoming the norm in baseball these days. While he certainly deserves credit for being an amazing fielder compared to any of them, I think he will quickly become completely forgotten in coming years in the shadow of Tejada, Furcal, Cabrera etc. All great, all fantastic gloves, all much better hitters.
The difference is the defense. It has been noted many times before that it is next to impossible to sum up defensive contrbutions with statistics, but here's what there is: In fielding %, they were each .012 better than league averages for their careers so that tells us nothing (and fielding %, even when there is a difference, almost always tells us nothing). Their range factors were strikingly different, however: Vizquel 4.42 vs. a league average of 4.12, Smith 5.03 vs. a league average of 4.10. In other words, Vizquel was about 7.25% better than average where Smith was about 22.5% better than average. Someone has already mentioned the Gold Glove disparity, 13 for Smith, 10 for Vizquel. Vizquel has arguably been winning his Gold Gloves against tougher competition, so I don't think this tells us much - not enough to explain the fact that Smith is in the HOF and Vizquel never will be, anyway.
So, is Smith in the HOF because of his remarkable range factors? Not directly, of course. He's in the HOF because he was the greatest fielding shortstop to ever play the game (which his range factors merely confirm). Nothing short of that can get a player of such limited batting ability in.
Some of the comparable players got in the same way: Mazeroski was the greatest 2nd baseman of the modern era, if not all time; Aparicio was a top-10 shortstop who also led the league in stolen bases 9 years in a row; Schoendienst was only an excellent 2nd baseman, but the hole he dug with his offense was much smaller and he won a World Series as a manager.
In the end, Vizquel is near the bottom of the offensive barrel (with Smith and a few others) as far as HOF consideration goes - much worse and no fielding exploits in the world could ever get him in. To get out of that hole takes something truly remarkable in an all-time sense, and Vizquel - as great a shortstop as he is - just isn't THAT great.
edited to add: Jim Kaat should be in the HOF, IMO, due in significant part to his fielding. I think he has a shot someday when the Veteran's committee in 2050 or whenever asks "Why isn't this guy in already?" and nobody has a very good answer.
I agree.
SD
The thing I don't get about the veterans committee is if the player didn't get in the first 15 years of voting why should he get in later? He didn't get one more hit, win or mvp. To me the veterans committee should be for players that deserve it but never got on a ballot- Pete Browning being a big example, and a few other 19th century stars. Or it should be for people that had a significant impact on the game, and on that basis I can't figure out why Marvin Miller isn't in.
Always looking for Topps Salesman Samples, pre '51 unopened packs, E90-2, E91a, N690 Kalamazoo Bats, and T204 Square Frame Ramly's
<< <i>... if you have to ask he isn't a HOFer. >>
In theory, I think you're absolutely correct, but it depends who "you" is, and how much he knows about baseball. SOMEbody asks about almost everyone; a HOF with only the universally unquestioned would be very small.
<< <i>The thing I don't get about the veterans committee is if the player didn't get in the first 15 years of voting why should he get in later? >>
9 times out of 10, I agree with you here, too. But the answer to your question in the other 1 out of 10 is, "Because for 15 straight years the voters got it wrong." Maybe it just takes more years to get the proper perspective on some players than it takes for others, but it is absolutely inconceivable to me that the HOF will not somday correct some of the errors they have made; a HOF without Santo and Blyleven is just silly, and as more and more players significantly worse than those two continue to get in, that silliness will just get harder and harder to ignore.
One post that does baffle me though is, how can anybody get lost in the shadow of Orlando Cabrerra? If Miguel Cabrerra were a shortstop, then I understand, but Orlando Cabrerra? Well maybe in comparison to Herve Villechaize's shadow
SD
I was referring to the young and talented gold glove winning SS for the LAAoA who has exhibited the skills thus far in his career to indicate he might in all reasonable liklihood end up with a far better hitting career than Vizquel and a comparable number of gold gloves.
Sorry to have confused you. I forgot how easy that is to do.
Vizquel's, through age 38, is sitting at 85.
Cabrerra most likely had his peak year at age 28 when he got his OPS+ up to 95. The last two years have been 79, and 82.
The young claim is also incorrect. 31 years old next season is not young. Yeah, to George Bush SR. he is young, but not in baseball age.
Could Cabrerra improve as a hitter? Possibly, but most likely you will see more of the same. He may also hit some bad years if he makes it to the late 30's, which may put him behind Vizquel instead of even being tied.
In the end, claiming he will end up having a FAR better hitting career than Vizquel is a reach that Stretch Armstrong may be proud of.
So yes, baffling is the correct word to use when O. Cabrerra is included with some excellent players who truly do cast shadows. You may be right, I may easily be confused.
Anyways, I stand by my predictions, and it is pointless to argue with you.
Jeter had the second-highest fielding percentage (.979) and made the second-fewest errors (15) among AL shortstops, trailing Orlando Cabrera in both categories, but Jeter racked up 454 assists to Cabrera's 347. Not to mention Jeter he is a shoe in for 3,000 hits .....
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
Typical Yankee fan, always needing constant reassurance... Yes, Derek Jeter is much better than Omar Vizquel.
Nor is he in a league with Tejada either, but my point was to mention a few slick fielding Latino born players, of which Derek Jeter is neither.
<< <i>DG, I noticed you of course did not include Derek Jeter among your top shortstops with Tejada, Furcal, Cabrera . That is to be expected from a Sox fan.
Jeter had the second-highest fielding percentage (.979) and made the second-fewest errors (15) among AL shortstops, trailing Orlando Cabrera in both categories, but Jeter racked up 454 assists to Cabrera's 347. Not to mention Jeter he is a shoe in for 3,000 hits ..... >>
I wasn't aware this thread was about overyhyped and overrated players (both of which Jeter is?)
Simple fact...Jeter's a light hitting shortstop who's playing a decade too late...there are far too many better hitting shortstops than Jeter (all he needs to do is look to his right to see a REAL hitting shortstop). If Jeter played in KC, no one would even know his name.
Always looking for Topps Salesman Samples, pre '51 unopened packs, E90-2, E91a, N690 Kalamazoo Bats, and T204 Square Frame Ramly's
<< <i>Simple fact...Jeter's a light hitting shortstop who's playing a decade too late...there are far too many better hitting shortstops than Jeter ( >>
Ax I don't know why you have it in for Jeter? You claim light hitting but you applaud Ichiro who is a light hitting outfielder. You compare him to Tejada but lets look at this years numbers-
Jeter - 202/654 122 19 70 14 .309
Tejada - 199/654 89 26 98 5 .304
pretty close numbers considering one bats at the top of the order and one in the middle. True he would not have the same notority if he played in KC, but he still be on pace to enter the HOF with the numbers he's put up no matter where he played. Nearly 200 hits a year, a career avg of .314 and only one year of under 70 rbi's. Great numbers for the position he plays in any era. Throw in above average fielding and he is definitely on his way to the Hall.
Comparing Ichiro and Jeter is laughable at best...Ichiro has yet to have less than 200 hits, averaging 226 hits per year (and breaking an 80 year old record of hits in a year in the process which was a vastly underrated achievment). Ichiro is a dominant fielder (where Jeter wins gold gloves based on popularity), is a stolen base threat every time he's on base, and is a complete player in all aspects of his game.
So his playing in NY doesn't overplay his game? There's a player who has averaged the following statistics for his career, yet I *never* hear his name mentioned:
.337 career batting average, averaging 194 hits, 34 HR, 116 RBI per year.
Career through 9 years over 1500 hits, 271 HRs, .607 career slugging average, 1.040 career OPS.
He's well on his way to over 3000 hits, and could get to 500 HRs as well, yet, his name is rarely mentioned among the game's current group of elite hitters.
<< <i>Comparing Ichiro and Jeter is laughable at best...I >>
I'm not downplaying Ichiro, but it is far from laughable because of the two issues you mentioned. Light hitting and complete player, they play different positions but compared to their peers they both fit the category. You may consider the gold glove a popularity contest but it is still not given out to poor defensive players. You can argue that Jeter wasn't the top defensive shortstop this year, but you cannot argue that he is amongst the league best.
Please tell me your player because I only know of 4 active players with OPS over 1.
<< <i> If Jeter played in KC, no one would even know his name. >>
Ax, you just go ahead and read the above comment again. Then ask yourself how many players you have NEVER heard of that ended up with over 3,000 hits. Then, turn your computer off, unplug the friggen thing, and throw it in the trash along with the rest of your baseball knowledge.
DG, right back at ya you TYPICAL Sox fan !
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
Before Pippen suffered his back injuries he was one of the top all around players in the league. Lets not forget that Jordan didn't win a ring let alone even get to the finals until Pippen came along
<< <i>
<< <i> If Jeter played in KC, no one would even know his name. >>
Ax, you just go ahead and read the above comment again. Then ask yourself how many players you have NEVER heard of that ended up with over 3,000 hits. Then, turn your computer off, unplug the friggen thing, and throw it in the trash along with the rest of your baseball knowledge.
DG, right back at ya you TYPICAL Sox fan !
Hmm Jeter has 3000 hits? When did this happen?
And if you really want to roll the dice and make some crazy speculations...
Between the ages of 22 and 31:
Pete Rose collected 1922 hits.
Derek Jeter collected 1924 hits.
Then again, Pete rose hung on until he was 45 before he was done as a player.
WTB: 2001 Leaf Rookies & Stars Longevity: Ryan Jensen #/25