Cleaned Buffalos

ad4400

Hello everyone. This is my first post. After reading the message board for several weeks, its obvious that this is a great place to get advice, share ideas, etc on coin collecting, and thus I've regestered so I can participate.

I myself have recently resumed my boyhood hobby after a 25 year or so hiatus. My starting point has been to upgrade my buffalo collection, renewing fond memories of my grandfather taking me to the coin store, where I managed to fill many of the holes in the album with AG/G coins.

Upon restarting the hobby I was given the advice to buy "the best grade you can afford", and armed with little more than that advise and a Photograde and PCGS grading book, proceeded to go to coin shows for my upgrades. I've been at it about a year and a half and decided it was best I get the collection appraised. Suprise, suprise when I got the appraisal back, the appraiser had noted that a number of the coins had been cleaned. My local coin dealer/appraiser has agreed to go over my collection this Saturday AM and give me an education as to how to tell if a coin has been cleaned.

Aside from what he tells me, I was hoping the group could share their tips and techniques for weeding out cleaned coins from their selection processes, in particular with nickles. In a more general sense, if any one has tips was to what I should walk away with from my meeting tomorrow, I would be most appreciative of that input as well.

It also probably won't suprise anyone here that a number of the coins I purchased as unc came back as 58s, but that will be a question for the future.

coinguy1

Welcome Ad4400,

It already sounds like you have an excellent, open-minded attitude and want to learn - that's a great start.

A few suggestions for your meeting with the dealer:

If you don't see or understand what he's trying to show/tell you, don't be afraid to let him know. Cleaning can be easy to spot if you know how to look and what to look for, but until you do, it might be difficult and frustrating for you, even if easy for him.

Depending upon your relationship (or lack thereof) with him, you might consider paying him something for his time.

See if he can show you uncleaned examples of the same type(s) coin(s) so that you can compare the cleaned ones to them, and start to get a feel for the differences in appearance.

If you have a good/portable light source that you can take with you, I'd advise doing so.

Look at as many coins (and on line images) as you can, which have been certified by highly respected grading companies.

You say you had your coins appraised - did you mean that literally, or that you had them graded by a grading company? If they were "appraised", hopefully you were given an honest and informed assessment.

Best of luck and enjoy.

Longacre

<< <i>See if he can show you uncleaned examples of the same type(s) coin(s) so that you can compare the cleaned ones to them, and start to get a feel for the differences in appearance.. >>




This is great advice. A major dealer spent some time with me at the NY show last year and showed me different examples of grades, and which were original and which were not. It was a great learning experience.

Oh yea, Welcome!!

chabot510

19Lyds

Welcome ad4400.

Aside from what Mark already stated the only thing I could offer would be to look for very fine lines all running in the same direction as this indicates some type of light abrasive cleaning. The cleaning lines would also cross the devices of the coin. If they don't, its usually an indicator of die polishing at the mint which detracts from the final grade.

Again,

PerryHall

As 19Lyds said, look for fine hairline scratches. They are best seen by tilting and rotating the coin under an incandescent light. Also, a bright mirrored surface may indicate the coin has been polished.

ad4400

Wow, thanks to all of you for your thoughts. I knew joining this would be a great idea and I look forward to getting your thoughts and contributing as well in the future. Thanks also for the warm welcomes.

As for Coinguys' thoughts, this was a repalcement cost appraisal for the purpose of getting the collection insured. The dealer says he usually charges $90 an hour but said we could work something out (small collection, regular if small potatos customer), maybe buy him lunch, but in the end told me there would be no charge. All things considered, it could be worse: over the last year and a half I've forked out $2.8K for something that came back as $1.8K replacement cost. IMO if I did anything smart was I didn't take the advice of "buy the key dates first since they appreciate the most", since a point or two difference in grade makes such a huge difference in price, and I would be in a much worse position than I am today. I've also read a number of posts where collectors' first purchases weren't the wiseist, and in that at least I don't feel alone.

When I see the coins side by side, I can tell that some of the coins marked as 'cleaned' do have an off yellowish color compared to the rest. Based on the books I've bought I've also looked for the breaks in the flowlines, but either due to inexerpience or lack of appropriate magnification, I just don't see it (someone chime in if disruption to flowlines and hairline scratches are apples and oranges). Obviously I'd like to become proficient enough in this so I don't need to carry 'nice' coins with me to shows and try to compare what they're selling to what has been deemed 'nice'.

DorkGirl

Toning isn't an indication of cleaning. If you don't already own a nice 10x magnifier, get one. If you tip the coin in the light under magnification you will see the hairlines, they are totally different than flowlines, they are scratches on the coin's surface from cleaning. If you don't have good light and a magnifier you probably won't be able to see them.

This is 60x magnification, but shows you waht to look for. Also do a search for "cleaned", there are some great threads here on the subject.....

Cam40

your `uncircs` coming back as 58s aint too bad really. anyway,getting the numismatic education many times doesnt come cheap especially if your a bit gullible and have fairly deep pockets (alot of dealers dream customer)

hang aroung here awhile and you will get more coins smarts than ever.
best coin place on the web, in my honest opinion.

carl

Magnifying glasses are common and cheap. Always carry one when going to look at coins. Study the pictures in coin books for details that may be washed out by wear on a cleaned coin that looks like brand new from the mint. However, remember that if your just collecting for yourself, don't get to critical about a slight cleaning if the price reflects a cleaned coin. Your collection won't suffer and the other coins next to the cleaned ones will never complain. If your collecting with plans to resell someday, that's when you may want to be very critical as to cleaned coins.

ad4400

Thanks again for everyone's advise, encouragement, and generally making the newie feel welcome. I've been studying my collection, and combined with your advice, am hopeful that tomorrow will be productive. I have at least half a dozen other questions I want to pose to the group and look forward to everyone's thoughts.

buffnut

Here's a couple of tips I have learned that might help:
1) If a buffalo has a reflective, chrome, mirror-like luster and it isn't a certified proof, then it is most likely polished. I have ONE coin that is completely original that has those PL surfaces. It is the exception rather than the rule, and was probably the result of an extremely nice planchet before striking. This one is whizzed/polished:

2) I may get flamed for this, but MOST circulated buffs will not have fantastic luster naturally. These coins aren't silver, so their luster is one of the first things to go when they get circulated.
3) Do not buy any buff that has grainy surfaces. This is usually an indication of being treated with some sort of acidic chemical to "enhance" the details. The luster will most always be very dull and the surfaces will look almost "sandy". If you are able to handle the coin in person, some say that chemically treated coins will also have a certain "smell". Can't say that I have ever tested this theory... or would want to!
4) Wild colors can be natural, but are often a red flag to think twice about the coin if you don't know its history (like how it was stored and for how long). Depending on how the coin was cleaned, the colors can run the spectrum.
5) Look at the fields of the coin carefully. If they are completely free of toning and or debris, yet there is toning and or debris in the protected areas of the coin, it might be cleaned. The fields also tend to show the hairlines mentioned earlier better than other areas, since these surfaces are more flat and the hairlines can't blend into design elements.
6) Although unfortunate, slabbed does not guarantee uncleaned. I think you will find examples of this in every TPG service, some more than others, with no mention of cleaning.
7) Lastly, you are the one who ultimately decides what you like in a coin. While cleaned coins don't hold the investment value that uncleaned coins of the same grade would, they do make cheaper alternatives and spot fillers if you are a collector at heart and like the coin!

I hope this helps. Maybe the best advice I can give has been repeated several times. Look at as many buffs and photos of buffs as you can. After a while, the problem ones stick out like a sore thumb!
Good luck with your collection!

Shamika

<< <i>My local coin dealer/appraiser has agreed to go over my collection this Saturday AM and give me an education as to how to tell if a coin has been cleaned. >>


Consider yourself blessed to have such knowledge shared with you.

Welcome to the Forum.