Is it unprofessional for a dealer to comment?
iras4
Posts: 300
It is common practice for posters to ask for opinions about a coin for sale in these forums, whether it's an eBay offering or one in a national auction.
I rarely comment unless the photos are quite clear & large and the coin is in an area where I feel I have considerable expertise.
I was taken to task this evening by a nastygram stating that it was unprofessional for a DEALER like myself to comment in a negative fashion about ANY coin one has not seen in person, and certainly NOT on a public forum like this one.
I think it would be unprofessional NOT to comment, either postively or negatively, if the coin is clearly illustrated in a large clear photo and the comments were not made out of malice or an ulterior motive but in response to a query on the forum and the comments wete made constructively.
What do you think?
Ira
I rarely comment unless the photos are quite clear & large and the coin is in an area where I feel I have considerable expertise.
I was taken to task this evening by a nastygram stating that it was unprofessional for a DEALER like myself to comment in a negative fashion about ANY coin one has not seen in person, and certainly NOT on a public forum like this one.
I think it would be unprofessional NOT to comment, either postively or negatively, if the coin is clearly illustrated in a large clear photo and the comments were not made out of malice or an ulterior motive but in response to a query on the forum and the comments wete made constructively.
What do you think?
Ira
Dealer/old-time collector
0
Comments
Ira,
The way you have presented it, I would agree with you. However, I agree that to provide a professional opinion the coin probably should be seen in hand.
Jack
The CU Forum doesn't drive the coin market nor even affect it one iota.
roadrunner
If you don't want comments, don't post pics!
I don't know either party, nor do I care, but don't nastygram folks when all they do is give an opinion.
Ike Specialist
Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986
If not, well, dealers ARE some of the experts and can provide good knowledge.
In the case where the posted coin was NOT posted by the seller/buyer, but just in general, and the comments aren't "positive", well, that is case by case depending on the comments.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>It is common practice for posters to ask for opinions about a coin for sale in these forums, whether it's an eBay offering or one in a national auction.
I rarely comment unless the photos are quite clear & large and the coin is in an area where I feel I have considerable expertise.
I was taken to task this evening by a nastygram stating that it was unprofessional for a DEALER like myself to comment in a negative fashion about ANY coin one has not seen in person, and certainly NOT on a public forum like this one.
I think it would be unprofessional NOT to comment, either postively or negatively, if the coin is clearly illustrated in a large clear photo and the comments were not made out of malice or an ulterior motive but in response to a query on the forum and the comments wete made constructively.
What do you think?
Ira >>
Nothing wrong with what you did.
as in the past with runners between the aztec city empire the messenger was always killed if he brought truthful yet bad news/reports such is life
no one wants to hear the truth
Ira: While "unprofessional" might be a bit strong a word, I do believe it is generally not "good form" to comment on an auction coin prior to the completion of auction without the coin owner's express permission.
Wondercoin
By speaking in technicalities and in great detail you avoid the "commentary" accusation.
It sounds to me that alot of people seem to know ALOT about this coin.I wonder WHY ?
Stewart
Be adult enough to appreciate differing opinions and the context in which they were given.
Who put an 09-s vdb MS67 in a public auction and DIDN'T think there were going to be comments? I don't think any of the comments were in poor taste.
<< <i>"What do you think?"
Ira: While "unprofessional" might be a bit strong a word, I do believe it is generally not "good form" to comment on an auction coin prior to the completion of auction without the coin owner's express permission.
Wondercoin >>
Mitch,
The coin is in a public auction with photos available for anyone to see. At the time of the posting of a link to the image by the OP, opinions were sought. How, pray tell, would anyone get the "owner's express permission to comment?"
I'm afraid that's totally unrealistic. I can understand that a seller, as MANOFCOINS wrote, would not appreciate comments on his coin, escpecially if they were not positive, but by placing a high-profile coin of that in a public auction it can be assumed that it may well be discussed in a public forum. Heck, if I put one of my coins in a public and national auction and images were available, I wouldn't like negative comments about it either. Yet, that comes with the territory.
So far, it appears opinions by dealers are accepable to 15 of the 18 respondants to my original post.
I was accused by the seller of "pissing" on his coin. What I did say in my post is that if cracked out I don't believe it would grade higher than MS-65 Rd these days. I'd like to add that I suppose if the coin could be seen in person and it had a lot of flash it might achieve MS-66 Rd , fingerprints and all. But I stand by my original opinion that it wouldn't past muster at the original grade by present strict standards for bronze cents.
Clearly, since reserve was met and a bid price with juice is approaching $80,000, someone liked the coin a lot. That's good. Opinions can and do vary. The seller should be pleased, but I doubt he is.
Ira
If in fact this person blasted Ira about the previous post on the 09-S VDB cent, I personally think it is dead wrong. Why? He doesn't appear to be involved in the auction or the transaction in any way. How is it any different than if he clicked on my collection and voiced his opinion about a coin of mine? If people think that a coin is overgraded, undergraded or even correctly graded...then they should have the right to say so.
To say that one should not comment about a coin because they are not seeing it in person is SILLY. With the zoom technology that Heritage makes available on their website these days, it might not be as if you are looking at it in person, but it is pretty darn close!
Although I don't know him personally, I think it's very classy that Ira even started this post because he obviously cares what people think about him. What's the coin up to anyway?
And, for those out there reading this and immediately thinking that my opinion translates into "dealers should not negatively discuss other DEALER'S merchandise as a matter of courtesy", please keep in mind one thing...
For many dealers, a good percentage of the coins consigned to major auction belong to the CUSTOMERS of the dealer. Dealers routinely accept their customers' coins for auction because even with carving out something for the dealer himself/herself, the customer routinely receives a higher net return from the dealer than going directly to the auction house himself. Hence, in many, many cases, the dealer's "territorial" behavior in wanting to avoid "bad mouthing" of various auction lots (before they actually go off at auction) centers around the dealer not wanting his CUSTOMER'S coins "bad mouthed" and has nothing to do with the dealer worried about anyone attacking his own personal property.
Again, just my 2 cents because this is a free country as was said and this is my opinion of dealer to dealer behavior vis a vis live auction coins.
Wondercoin
Wondercoin - Is there no end to the oral diahreah that comes out of your mouth ? Do you expect anyone reading this thread to believe that you know nothing about this coin ?Why don't you just comment about the coin since everyone "but you" has commented.
I will comment since you have not.Your client,Tom Mershon's coin of the same date and grade had an illegible VDB on his coin.This coin is better struck with a full VDB.Your clients coin brought $92,000.This coin should be worth at least as much as the Mershon coin.
Iras4 should be able to say anything he wants on this forum.I certainly do and so does Wondercoin.
Mitch - How can you tell collectors on a public forum that dealers get better rates at auction than collectors.Are you advertising to get collectors to give you their consignments ?Further,Why don't you ask how many people actually TRUST YOU ?
Stewart
<< <i>Did that thread "disappear"????? >>
No. Its still here 8th one down from the top.
My posts viewed
since 8/1/6
<< <i>I'll piss on his coin, too, just to get a rise out of him. >>
I already pissed on it. I want my nastygram, damnit!
Russ, NCNE
I concur that a dealer should not publicly opine on another dealer's inventory, unless requested by a client in a private setting, but this dog is listed for the public to see and purchase. Heritage and the owner are hoping that someone will make a decision based upon the images they provide, so it is appropriate for anyone, dealers included to make judgements based upon the images provided. If the image does not fairly represent the coin, then the owner of the coin should have a problem with Heritage, not the commentator.
Wondercoin, I don't know you. But your comments here are dead wrong. You are simply being one of the 3 monkeys of "Hear no evil, See..... Fame. At least for this collector, I can no longer consider you to be a straight shooter.
While I do not agree with wondercoin's opinion, I see no reason to be upset about it. It IS his opinion.
There are three schools of thought on this issue. I remember a recent thread in which the vast majority of posters felt that if a poster showed a picture of his coin without asking for a public opinion that we should not offer any embarassing opinions to the thread and instead do so privately. This sounds like a different scenario.
Also keep in mind that wondercoin once offered to give his detailed opinions on coins that he was involved in auctioning for a client (I believe). He asked for permission from the forum members and such permission was quite affirmative in my recollection as he offerred not to bid on any of the lots.. Were we going to affect the auction much at all? Probably not. I remember wondercoin's opinions and they were measured. Some positive, some neutral and some slightly negative depending on the coin. He seemed to be careful in offering his opinions which I thought was informative. Apparently, the "permission" was revoked and wondercoin agreed to drop the whole thing.
I believe, wondercoin is coming from this perspective that he would prefer to be gun shy on offering opinions on coins and expressed his learned behavior to others including ira4. After all, why bother getting into controversy?
Again, while I disagree with wondercoin in this scenario, I respect him for at least offering an opinion. Just as I respect Stew and others for offering their opinions as well.
Keep in mind the history of all this stuff. Not as simple as it appears.
So in this state of irrational behavior, I always convinced myself that they were always overpriced.
Obviously, the issue is not "black and white" pertaining to the specific issue of dealers (collectors freely comment on auction coins all the time, which is perfectly fine to do of course), which is why there is a thread on the subject in the first place. And, I learn something every day in this business, so I am totally open to discovering my opinion is in the minority - it won't be the first time. Perhaps I might even come to the conclusion down the road that an adjustment to my viewpoint is in order. That is why I enjoy reading the posts of nearly everyone on these boards.
Wondercoin.
Not to say his stating them may or may not get him in trouble with somebody. It's just that for my own edification, I just appreciate his, and knowledgeable folks' like him, taking the risk.
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...
So in this state of irrational behavior, I always convinced myself that they were always overpriced.
Oreville,
You're right, they are overpriced.
Jack
<< <i>So Stewart if and when you ever sell would it bother you if someone said one of your $80k coins was a dog? >>
Personally, I'm looking forward to the opportunity.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>I guess everyone can give thier opinion on this posters question but Mitch even if the poster requsted opinions.
I personally find it distaistful to give negative comments on a active auction.
So Stewart if and when you ever sell would it bother you if someone said one of your $80k coins was a dog? Not only
was it a dog but over graded by not 1 but 2 points? The person putting your coin down happened to be a well known dealer
in Lincoln's? >>
Come on Craig. Unless I missed it, I don't think anyone has stated that Mitch cannot give his opinion.
I see 2 sides, and they are all opinions. Your is yours , and mine is mine. And we disagree.
BTW, anyone, feel free to make negative comments on any of my coins, when they come up for auctions. What I've learned in this hobby is, a dog to one person will be a beauty to another. So, no big deal.
It is what it is. Ira was just commenting on that.
So Stewart if and when you ever sell would it bother you if someone said one of your $80k coins was a dog?
Same goes for Stewart's coins or anyone else for that matter. They are what they are. People are entitled to their opinions. Unfortunately, none of Stewart's Lincolns are dogs.
Jack
<< <i>So Stewart if and when you ever sell would it bother you if someone said one of your $80k coins was a dog? Not only was it a dog but over graded by not 1 but 2 points? The person putting your coin down happened to be a well known dealer in Lincoln's? >>
The fact that it was a well know dealer in Lincolns only adds credibility to the statement. Is it just maybe possible that PCGS screwed the pooch on this one? Oh, I'm sorry...I forgot I was in the registry forum. Never mind.
<< <i>..........Stewart was a tad harsh go back and see what he wrote. >>
I read what he wrote several times, when he first posted it. Harsh, yes, but my original statement still stands.
ManOfCoins - What a name you chose Craig !
I have already sold and bought 80 K coins.I generally keep my mouth shut and if I do put an 80 K coin in auction..... I keep my mouth shut !!!
Perhaps if you read this post I was one of the few individuals who NEVER said anything negative about this coin.To answer your question it would bother me if someone called a coin I was trying to sell doghy doo doo.But I fully believe any well known dealer can call my coin or anyones coin doghy doo doo.Its called freedom of speech.
stewart
You have bought and sold 80,000 coins?
That is a lot of coins!!!!
STEWARTBLAYNUMIS
Collector
Posts: 1679
Joined: Apr 2002
Monday September 19, 2005 1:39 PM
Wondercoin - Is there no end to the oral diahreah that comes out of your mouth ? Do you expect anyone reading this thread to believe that you know nothing about this coin ?Why don't you just comment about the coin since everyone "but you" has commented.
I will comment since you have not.Your client,Tom Mershon's coin of the same date and grade had an illegible VDB on his coin.This coin is better struck with a full VDB.Your clients coin brought $92,000.This coin should be worth at least as much as the Mershon coin.
Iras4 should be able to say anything he wants on this forum.I certainly do and so does Wondercoin.
Mitch - How can you tell collectors on a public forum that dealers get better rates at auction than collectors.Are you advertising to get collectors to give you their consignments ?Further,Why don't you ask how many people actually TRUST YOU ?
Stewart
Having both observed and dealt with Ira, his expertise in copper in beyond reproach, and if I were
in the market for any copper issues, he is among the first I would consult.
By it's very nature, the sight-unseen, internet trading environment begs for the most info possible, and
just BECAUSE a holder says it's "X" doesn't mean it's so!
Like many here, I buy on line all the time with the "hope" that what I see is what I get.
As always, buy the coin, not the holder.
Ed
I think, IMHO, it is perfectly within the bounds of ethical behavior for you to comment. The keys include the pics are in a public forum, an opinion has been asked by someone, or (as an alternative) you are bringing it up (yourself) as long as you have no axe to grind with anyone else involved.
Of course, the legal climate being what it is, you might want to always keep that in the back of your mind.
Your opinion is a valued one and is greatly respected. You're a leader and people look to you for your talent.
I think this sums up my thoughts.
for a dealer even to breath, let alone
move around.
Camelot