This is why you should snipe
DaBigHurt
Posts: 1,066 ✭✭
And keep private the cards you're looking for to complete a set, because you never know when a person who sells $3 cosmetics suddenly decides to bid on the items of notorious seller who has been accused of shill bidding before. 
OUCH!
Take a look at the other auctions he was able to drive the prices up on.
OUCH!
Take a look at the other auctions he was able to drive the prices up on.
GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
0
Comments
61 Topps (100%) 7.96
62 Parkhurst (100%) 8.70
63 Topps (100%) 7.96
63 York WB's (50%) 8.52
68 Topps (39%) 8.54
69 Topps (3%) 9.00
69 OPC (83%) 8.21
71 Topps (100%) 9.21 #1 A.T.F.
72 Topps (100%) 9.39
73 Topps (13%) 9.35
74 OPC WHA (95%) 8.57
75 Topps (50%) 9.23
77 OPC WHA (86%) 8.62 #1 A.T.F.
88 Topps (5%) 10.00
GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
Be good my brothers.
GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
Still whining, after all these years; do you watch X-Files and buy into these conspiracies? Thank God I've been buying the best '93 REF product you can get, from a friend in Cali who cornered the market.
I was thinking the same thing about the price - and thought about the asian connection for his stuff. If I pulled it and sold it for that kind of dough? Party time!!!!
<< <i>Aaaah DaBigHurt,
Still whining, after all these years; do you watch X-Files and buy into these conspiracies? Thank God I've been buying the best '93 REF product you can get, from a friend in Cali who cornered the market.
Heh.
Because Topps has NEVER let cards out their backdoor, right?
Good God, man. Just because you buy a few raw '93 refractors from Bbcardco or "a friend in Cali who cornered the market" doesn't make you an expert on the set!
Are we suppose to be impressed by the fact that you just started collecting the set and bought some raw refs?
For your next trick, why don't you check into '94-95 Finest refractor Jordans? You are familiar with that issue, are you not?
GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
One would be hard pressed to find any 'limited edition' parallel sets available in such quantity, let alone '93 refractors if they didn't come out of the Topps' backdoor.
GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
<< <i>
<< <i>Aaaah DaBigHurt,
Still whining, after all these years; do you watch X-Files and buy into these conspiracies? Thank God I've been buying the best '93 REF product you can get, from a friend in Cali who cornered the market.
Heh.
Because Topps has NEVER let cards out their backdoor, right?
Good God, man. Just because you buy a few raw '93 refractors from Bbcardco or "a friend in Cali who cornered the market" doesn't make you an expert on the set!
Are we suppose to be impressed by the fact that you just started collecting the set and bought some raw refs?
For your next trick, why don't you check into '94-95 Finest refractor Jordans? You are familiar with that issue, are you not?
You do not know my source, and it sure as hell isn't BBcardco. Their raw is crap, as they submit to PSA.
Likewise, your conspiracy theories are very interesting, rather polarizing, but ultimately groundless and of absolutely NO merit. You clearly believe that sellers have purchased additional copies of these Refractors from The Topps Company because a few eBay sellers stockpiled hundreds of cases of this product back in 1993. Who could afford to take the risk on this ultra-expensive product back in 1993? The big sellers, that's who. Bobbabo and BBCardco come to mind. I have carefully tracked the sales of these (much more closely than you have) and, if one card of every player was sold every week on eBay for the last 60 weeks (gasp!!!), there are still just under 200 of the cards one would have to account for.
And regarding your 94-95 Jordan REF comment, I guess it just flew right by me. I don't collect Basketball. Sorry to disappoint you. Did you get burned on this particular issue or something? Gosh, I hope not.
By the way, insert a few more ROFL's into your posts --- it NEVER gets old!!!
<< <i>
You clearly believe that sellers have purchased additional copies of these Refractors from The Topps Company because a few eBay sellers stockpiled hundreds of cases of this product back in 1993. Who could afford to take the risk on this ultra-expensive product back in 1993? The big sellers, that's who. Bobbabo and BBCardco come to mind. I have carefully tracked the sales of these (much more closely than you have) and, if one card of every player was sold every week on eBay for the last 60 weeks (gasp!!!), there are still just under 200 of the cards one would have to account for.
And regarding your 94-95 Jordan REF comment, I guess it just flew right by me. I don't collect Basketball. Sorry to disappoint you. Did you get burned on this particular issue or something? Gosh, I hope not.
>>
Let's see...it's a fact that Topps would let the presses run extra on the so-called limited edition refractors back in the early and mid '90s. As pointed out earlier, Topps was sued and lost in court when it was discovered they had quite more refractors than they promised on their own packaging. You're one of the few people who seem to actually think Topps kept their print runs low before serial numbers.
Since you're unaware of the '94-95 Finest Refractor Jordan issue, I may as well try explaining it to you. When the Jordan refractors first hit the market, they were selling for upwards of $500. Soon, word spread that even though the Jordans were randomly inserted into packs, one could purchase as many as they wanted for about $300 from a company in Minnesota. What were the odds of pulling a Jordan when it was part of a regular parallel set with hundreds of other cards? Kinda rare, no?
These people literally had an unlimited supply and flooded the market. This was before the internet got big and before Ebay, so it was quite impossible to hoard so many cards of a particular issue less than a few weeks after release. Oddly, they had nothing else as far as 94-95 Finest refractors. You could comb a hundred card shows and not find 25 refractors of Juwan Howard, but you can find a brick of 50 Jordans at the drop of a hat? Just the Jordans with the #45 jersey. Of course, the market crashed for the Jordan refractors when buyers discovered there was something fishy going on.
Kinda like those famous '95-96 Orange basketball refractors. Once they sold for thousands and now can be bought for mere dollars on Ebay.
So yeah, when you take all this into consideration and then see the THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of '93 Finest refractors that have flooded the market since last year what else is one to think?
GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
<< <i>Refractors=garbage >>
Another prime example of why Stone is concerned that posters ARE fleeing away from this site.
A$$wipes like you!!!
<< <i>And keep private the cards you're looking for to complete a set, because you never know when a person who sells $3 cosmetics suddenly decides to bid on the items of notorious seller who has been accused of shill bidding before.
OUCH!
Take a look at the other auctions he was able to drive the prices up on.
How do you report shill bidding on eBay? juanfan19 clearly has his wifey bidding up his auctions. He wouldn't want to sell a '96 Select Mirror Gold PSA 10 of Juan for $300!!!
<< <i>So yeah, when you take all this into consideration and then see the THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of '93 Finest refractors that have flooded the market since last year what else is one to think? >>
Thousands and thousands of refractors? I agree. Let's assume a whopping 20 per player (a measley 8% of each player's print run) x 199 cards in the set = 4,000 '93 refractors.
You're right, thousands and thousands.
No dealers in 1993 were going to hoard large quantities of 1993 Finest unopened - production allotments were too limited and the product was too hot on the marketplace. It was, at the time, the most expensive product to have ever been released, and unopened boxes disappeared off dealer shelves and tables at well above MSRP.
I don't track this set, but I track several other, more limited parallel sets (#/25 and #/100) carefully, and the quantities of these that are on eBay at any one time are normally less than 5 per set (and almost always less than 10).
If anywhere near the numbers DaBig is saying are being put on eBay, then the 1993 Finest refractors were seriously backdoored.
Nick
Reap the whirlwind.
Need to buy something for the wife or girlfriend? Check out Vintage Designer Clothing.
All one has to do is keep an eye on Ebay for the '93 refractors. Currently, there are just 33, but wait a few days. The usual suspects will inundate the market again with hundreds. A quick search of completed auctions for "1993 Finest refractors" turned up almost 400 sales (and they've eased up on the dumping the last few weeks!).
I remember just two years ago when you would literally go weeks without seeing more than 10 '93 refractors for sale at the same time. It WAS a challenge to put a set together, but not anymore. Anyone person with a few dollars can put together 90% of the set on ANY given week just perusing Ebay. I don't care what parallel insert set you're looking for, especially a set with almost 200 cards, something like that should be logistically difficult.
What's going on with '93 refractors smells. Anyone who follows the set and doesn't have a vested interest will tell you that.
GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
<< <i>
<< <i>So yeah, when you take all this into consideration and then see the THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of '93 Finest refractors that have flooded the market since last year what else is one to think? >>
Thousands and thousands of refractors? I agree. Let's assume a whopping 20 per player (a measley 8% of each player's print run) x 199 cards in the set = 4,000 '93 refractors.
You're right, thousands and thousands.
Seriously speaking now...are you telling me you're not alarmed by the amount of '93 finest refractors dumped onto the market in the last year and change?
With all that we've seen from Topps in the past, this doesn't make you wonder?
GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
lucky for me the trash i buy e-bay is so obscure nobody bids on it.....
Julen
RIP GURU
You keep bringing up this supposed 'backdooring' by Topps, but I really don't see a basis in it. Why would someone wait 12 years to flood the market, when in 1995-1997 they could have flooded the market with this issue and saw their profit increase about 3-5 times from what they're making now? If you remember correctly, common '93 Refractors were going for about $60 back in the timeframe I mentioned. There still not even close to that figure, now. Like Josh, I've been following these pretty closely and I can tell you firsthand, there's a few players that have only come up 3-4 times in the last year...
Mark
Sounds to me like you're a knowledgable collector of '93 Finest refractors. Are you not shocked by the sheer quantity of refractors that have hit Ebay? Aren't you worried, especially given Topps' track record?
I've also been following the cards since they first came out and thought they were legitimately hard to find for over a decade. What I've seen in the last year has totally shaken my faith in that set.
GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
Sure, recently, there seems to be quite a few out there, but I think we need a little bit more time to see if this trend continues. On a side note, do you have any, or did you have any? I used to buy these pre-eBay, boy, was that difficult! You would occasionally see these at shows (when there used to be shows worth going to), but you really had to struggle to find these online. I think it was some type of old Beckett Buy, Sell, Trade board that I used to get them on...
Mark
And someone else reported owning something like 60 or 80 Randy Myers refractor cards?!
Geez!
for whatever its worth, in the last 2 years, there has been less than 20 ron gant refractors on ebay..
By the way, dabighurt, you're being (again) rather dramatic here. The last month on eBay has seen more refractors than it EVER has. Period. Sellers have been liquidating both PSA and raw copies of cards. It's funny that you obviously checked eBay hoping for more so you could shout and whine. 400 copies is a lot, but it's because some of the most prolific collectors of these cards are selling while the market is picking back up.
BTW, pandrews is correct: many cards sell in abundance (reggie jefferson, juan guzman, etc.) because they're obscure and have not been hoarded or collected over the years. There have been 5-10 Ron Gants on eBay in the last year, tops. I've bought 3 of them. See how many Nolan Ryans, George Bretts, Ozzie Smith's, Andre Dawsons, Greg Madduxs, Frank Thomas, etc. come up in the next YEAR...... Then come to me with your conspiracy theories. It is strange that, if you're correct, Topps flooed the market with commons. Makes sense, huh?
By the way, a few weeks ago, juanfan19 sold an ENTIRE set of '96 Mirror Gold cards and has also sold numerous graded copies (hence the Nomo that started this thread). Considering there are only 30 sets made, does this mean that Select has a backdoor too? Oh noooooooooooooo
This is an unfortunate thread in which DBH, with absolutely no evidence or knowledge of anything being done in an unethical manner by Topps. Perhaps he is jealous for some reason?
Finally, this thread is the exact reason why 1993 Refractors are the perfect set to be collecting. They are clearly limited, which annoys the vintage collectors on here, but there is enough to keep interest high. This is the beauty of having ~250 sets out there: Their value will be maintained because the product does NOT dry up. People can get involved, build their registry sets, and be happy. In a round about way, DBH has actually helped support the cause. Thanks buddy!!!!!!!!
<< <i>If anywhere near the numbers DaBig is saying are being put on eBay, then the 1993 Finest refractors were seriously backdoored.
Nick >>
They're not. He's exaggerating wildly.
Nick
Reap the whirlwind.
Need to buy something for the wife or girlfriend? Check out Vintage Designer Clothing.
400 completed 1993 Finest refractor sales on Ebay is nothing new! Anyone who has followed the set regularly know that seeing 150 a week for sale is now normal! From Bbcardo and Auctionhelper to Gourstar to Bobbabo, you can literally put together 90% of a set on ANY given week!
I understand you have a vested interest in the cards, but give us a break, will ya? To try arguing that there's not been a flood of the cards in the last year is laughable.
Ask buyers of '96 mirror golds how rare those cards are to come by. You'll be lucky to find two for sale on any given week. Last week, Juan19 sold off a bunch, but don't for a second try to compare '96 mirror golds with what's happening with '93 refractors.
GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
<< <i>DBH,
Sure, recently, there seems to be quite a few out there, but I think we need a little bit more time to see if this trend continues. On a side note, do you have any, or did you have any? I used to buy these pre-eBay, boy, was that difficult! You would occasionally see these at shows (when there used to be shows worth going to), but you really had to struggle to find these online. I think it was some type of old Beckett Buy, Sell, Trade board that I used to get them on...
Mark >>
Mark, the flood has been happening for over a year, so it's more than a trend.
Yes, I do actually have '93 finest refractors. I've been buying them since the day they came out and remember the days when it was darn near impossible to buy them from anyone but Robert Nappe in New York, and even he didn't have 25 deep of each card some of the dealers unloading them have now.
About a year and change ago, when the first waves of '93 refractors first hit, I bought up quite a few and purchased some privately from a person with a bunch up on Ebay. I then sold what I bought and made good money and then watched and more and more and more kept hitting Ebay. That's when I knew something was up, especially with Topps' track record of 'limited' cards.
Since then, I've pretty much sold off most of my '93 finest refractors except for a few cards here and there, but believe me, as someone who use to buy the cards like you, I remember the days not too long ago when we would go months without seeing Sosas or Juan Gonzalezes..
Now, you know the deal. One would have to be downright nuts to buy and even get into bidding wars for 'rarer' issues. They'll be another batch coming up for sale soon, so why spend more than you have to?
Take a look at the Ripken refractor..that use to sell for almost $1,000. Since then, I'd say at least a good dozen or so have hit the market in the last year.
GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
Have you heard that alien-monkey hybrids are taking over New Guinea???
GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
<< <i>Would ya rather have that card than a PSA 8 of any of teddyballgame's cards? Unbelieveable. Truly blows my mind, I saw Hideo Nomo & I thought it was a joke. I do not care what set or how "rare" it is. Hello!! It's Hideo Nomo!!!! >>
Funny, but I recently won a killer card from another seller called, teddyballgame1981. I really wanted the item for my 1976 PSA set, but teddyballgame1981's scan was so cr@ppy, I was worried the card was as bad as the scan!
What the h e c k! I bid on it anyway, and won it! To my delight, it turned out to be "dead on perfect" PSA 10! And if the scan was better, I'm quite sure some of my fellow friendly/foes (oxymoron! LOL!) 1976 PSA set-builders, would have "bid-up" this beauty! (Lucky me!!!!!)
My new '76 Topps Gene Garber PSA 10 from teddyballgame1981 !!! (With the cr@ppy scan !!!)
rbd
1976 Topps Baseball #1/100% All-time PSA Set Registry (GPA/Set Rating of: 9.35)
1961 Nu-Card Football #1/100% All-time PSA Registry Set (GPA/Set Rating of: 9.53)
edit:
Quicksilver Messenger Service - Smokestack Lightning (Live) 1968
Quicksilver Messenger Service - The Hat (Live) 1971
<< <i>JMB, have you heard of getting out before the crash?
Perhaps you're just jealous because you dumped your copies and now they're surging, fueled by the latest SMR article and the PSA Registry? Perhaps all of your whining is merely a defense mechanism?
<< <i>
<< <i>JMB, have you heard of getting out before the crash?
Perhaps you're just jealous because you dumped your copies and now they're surging, fueled by the latest SMR article and the PSA Registry? Perhaps all of your whining is merely a defense mechanism?
Umm..they're surging? When I sold off the refractors last year, PSA 9 Juan Gonzalezes went for about $700 (they go for $180 now), Bryan Harvey, John Kruk and Felix Joses went for around $400 to $500 (these go for about $125? now) and raw Ripkens went for almost a thousand dollars. I just noticed two Ripkens sell for about $400 each last week.
Across the board, every single '93 Finest refractor I bought and sold are going for LESS than a year ago! That's what happens when you swamp the market with an unlimited supply of 'rare' cards!
I'm afraid to even ask how much Nolan Ryans go for now with the flood!
Oh well, I guess I am jealous!
GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
<< <i>Oh well, I guess I am jealous! >>
You said it, not me.
I've never had to worry about paying those kind of prices. Again, you're wildly exaggerating and, at the same time, speaking half-truths. I actually bought a Ripken raw back in 2003 on eBay $330. It came back an unqualified 9. A few weeks ago, a ridiculously poor-centered Ripken sold for $410. I could show you stats like this all day long. But eBay is eBay and prices are alway subject to change. Furthermore, show me one set whose PSA valued cards don't or haven't gone DOWN in value as more cards from the set are graded. Your logic is tragic -- I feel sorry for you. Read on...
You are trying to prove your thesis, that Topps is literally selling cards out the "back door" by quoting how PSA-graded copies are selling for less in 2005 than when there were 75% fewer graded copies out there in 2002-2003. This is not proof for your hysterical delusion; rather, it is a simple economics lesson with which every collector should be and probably is familiar. Unless we're talking about vintage (and even then to some degree), prices will always go down as long as there is an increase in the number of copies graded. There is nothing magical or mysterical here as you want there to be. Prices have dropped on the Juan Gonzalez in particular because many collectors are resubmitting their 8's and 9's and more raw copies are getting graded. Again, nothing fishy here.
Look at Pujols' 01 Bowman Chrome RC in 5 years, as 75-90% of the copies will then be PSA/BGS graded. See what they're bringing then. Will you be whining about another Bowman "back door?" You probably will be, but that's another issue altogether.
<< <i>Umm..they're surging? When I sold off the refractors last year, PSA 9 Juan Gonzalezes went for about $700 (they go for $180 now), Bryan Harvey, John Kruk and Felix Joses went for around $400 to $500 (these go for about $125? now) and raw Ripkens went for almost a thousand dollars. I just noticed two Ripkens sell for about $400 each last week.
Across the board, every single '93 Finest refractor I bought and sold are going for LESS than a year ago! That's what happens when you swamp the market with an unlimited supply of 'rare' cards!
I'm afraid to even ask how much Nolan Ryans go for now with the flood! >>
When someone has to lie to make a point, it seems that there is a problem with motive, character, and/or logic.
The last 5 Juan PSA 9's on eBay have averaged $350. They've never sold for $700 on eBay. Privately, maybe, but not on eBay. It's a strong card and will continue to sell well.
Ripken Refractors have NEVER sold for $1,000 raw on eBay. I purchased one at the '93 Refractors' "peak" (according to you) for 25% less than what two sold for in the past month (~$400 on eBay; 5235509638). The one sited here was probably 8 (OC) at best.
Additionally, RAW copies of Bryan Harvey (absolutely atrocious centering) sold this past week for $125 (5236699390) and an ultra-rare PSA 10 sold for $850 (5236947548). Again, you are lying about what these cards used to sell for and ARE selling for even as I type this.
For YEARS, it was truly hard to find Juan Gonzalez refractors, and THAT is why the cards were selling for so much. Now, the flood gates have opened up and you can buy one ANYTIME you want! Do you understanding the law of supply and demand? In the past, the demand was there, but there was no supply. That's why prices were so high. Today, while the demand is still relatively high, the supply is ENDLESS! THAT IS WHY THE PRICES HAVE PLUMMETTED!
There's a reason cards were referred to as "short prints" years ago. There were some cards that just were harder to find than others. Today, this no longer exists! Cards deemed "short prints" are being sold every other week by the same dealers.
Why don't you do yourself a favor and quit while you're ahead?
Do you really think you're fooling anyone? All one has to do is look at the completed auctions for 1993 finest refractors AND THE CASE IS CLOSED!
THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of refractors flooding the market in the past year speaks for itself!
GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
<< <i>
When someone has to lie to make a point, it seems that there is a problem with motive, character, and/or logic.
The last 5 Juan PSA 9's on eBay have averaged $350. They've never sold for $700 on eBay. Privately, maybe, but not on eBay. It's a strong card and will continue to sell well.
Ripken Refractors have NEVER sold for $1,000 raw on eBay. I purchased one at the '93 Refractors' "peak" (according to you) for 25% less than what two sold for in the past month (~$400 on eBay; 5235509638). The one sited here was probably 8 (OC) at best.
Additionally, RAW copies of Bryan Harvey (absolutely atrocious centering) sold this past week for $125 (5236699390) and an ultra-rare PSA 10 sold for $850 (5236947548). Again, you are lying about what these cards used to sell for and ARE selling for even as I type this. >>
Son, you're now beginning to look pathetic.
Just ask a forum member if he remembers selling a PSA 9 '93 finest refractor Juan Gonzalez LAST SUMMER on Ebay August 11, 2004 for $610, and a week earlier, another one sold for $700. The name of the seller who got $610 for his Gonzo is Seinbg (spelling is probably a bit off).
The last Juan Gonzalez PSA 9 refractor PSA 9 went for $180. Just last week.
Nuff said!
GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
You keep whining about "thousands and thousands." In the past 2 months, there have been nearly 500 '96 Mirror Golds sold on eBay. Does this mean that there is a back door there, considering there are only supposed to be 30 sets produced? No, I doubt you would make that claim. Why? Probably because you own a few copies.
Your logic is, frankly, too simple here. You act as if there has been hundreds of Refractors on eBay for the past several years, the PSA Pop. Report is exploding, and prices are faltering. I've given you several excellent examples of cards that have sold strongly (very strongly), which refutes your claims.
All anyone has to do is check Ebay to find out the truth about '93 finest refractors.
GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
I've been searching for the Mirror Gold Ozzie Smith and the 93 refractor for my Master set.
Last night the first Mirror Gold PSA 9 i saw sold for $334, first time i've seen this card surface in probably 2 years or so. The 93 Refractor im hunting down always seems to pop up once or twice a month. Thanks for discussing this. It's very interesting and fun to read these kinda of disussions.
Ben
<< <i>I haven't read the entire thread. Just skimmed through it.
I've been searching for the Mirror Gold Ozzie Smith and the 93 refractor for my Master set.
Last night the first Mirror Gold PSA 9 i saw sold for $334, first time i've seen this card surface in probably 2 years or so. The 93 Refractor im hunting down always seems to pop up once or twice a month. Thanks for discussing this. It's very interesting and fun to read these kinda of disussions.
Ben >>
This is consistent with stated print runs. Keep in mind that there are 8X the 1993 Refractors as '96 Mirror Golds.
Of note, a PSA 9 1993 Refractor of Ozzie Smith on eBay about a month ago for $243.50 + shipping. $243.50
Apparently, the Japanese are also rumored to have become infatuated with the Mirror Golds and have bought a good portion of it (ala, Nomo), making that percentage locked-up overseas.
In my eyes, it is a fact that Topps backdoored at least a few complete sets of 93 refractors. Back at the 1994 National I bought a stack of them from a guy who broke a set that said he bought it from Topps. He had no reason to lie, and it certainly seemed a little too soon to have a completed set that he was willing to break up. Afterall, we're talking about pre-ebay and if he did in fact put it together card by card through busting and buying singles, I think it probably would have taken more than a year, and even if it didn't, I don't think he would've went through all that trouble to bust it that quickly. The question is, how many were sold? No one can possibly know the answer to that question, but I certainly don't think the market was ever flooded by Topps. Comparing them to the 97 gold refractors and 94/95 Jordans is only relevant in that it shows Topps willingness to sell out the back door. In both cases however, they did so almost immediately after release of the product while still hot. If they did do that with the 93 refractor set, we would have known about it way back in 94 or 95.
As far as the short print cards go, I never fully bought into it. The coallation on the refractors was horrible, and some cases would yield 5 or 6 of the same refractor. My theory is that set collectors reported these cards as tough because they couldn't find any, but they were probably shelved in unopened cases throughout the land. Some cards are still tough, but not nearly as many as were thought when beckett started the SP craze with this set. Also, the Juan Gonzalez was valued so highly because it was supposedly an SP and he was a superstar. It has gone down over the last 3-4 years because the market has been adjusting to his non-superstar status. Also, it's worth noting that the Piazza was double printed in case anybody didnt' know that. And not because Topps backdoored it, but it was pulled at a more frequent rate than the others. If Topps was going to backdoor any one card in 93-94, it would've been that one. But I never saw a dealer with more than 2 in all the shows I went to back then, including Nationals.
So, my conclusion is that some complete sets were backdoored, but not nearly enough to change the market on the set (and certainly not 12 years later). I think you can explain the sudden surge of cards that are being sold on ebay as guys who accumulated one or more sets and are now deciding to sell because PSA graded copies are commanding a great premium in 9 or 10 condition. Hell, I'd do the same thing. I'd also be doing the same thing with 91 Topps Desert Shield and any other set that has been revived because of PSA grading. People who wanted these sets raw before, now want them in PSA graded form.
I think the argument you guys are having about this is comical in that both of you are extremists in your beliefs about this set, when it seems there's quite a bit of grey area and the answer lies somewhere in the middle. Just my take.
Lee
i don't know anymore know than i did b4......
julen
RIP GURU