<< <i>NickM - Ricky will miss the first four game for smoking the chronic, Ronnie is the starter for the opener.
Jeff - You asked "Do you honestly see his rookies selling higher than Jerry Rice's?"
And the answer is Yes, some of his rookies do sell for more than Rice RC. It wasn't an indictment on Rice or any other black WR.
You can taint Boopotts and my point as much as you want. We are just stating our observations. >>
Actually if you scroll up you would see that I proved that to be false. Unless you count any of the modern inserts which do not actually qualify as rookies. I don't want to taint your point but your basing your opinion of who will be successful, collectible etc all based on his skin color. Your the one who has to look in the mirror every day. Your whole delusion that this talented YOUNG seasoned pre season rookie can even be compared to Jerry Rice just shows how blinded you are by race that you can't think intelligently.
Collecting Minnie Minoso Master and Basic 1967 Topps PSA 8+ 1960's Topps run Mega Set "For me, playing baseball has been like a war and I was defending the uniform I wore, Every time I put on the uniform I respected it like the American flag. I wore it like I was representing every Latin country."--Minnie Minoso
Jeff-Just my observation, but it seems to me like you're just arguing for the sake of arguing. Every time I see a reply of yours it gets more and more skewed in reference to what someone said.
By the way, how on earth did this thread get so far OT?
All i did was say that I didn't like where this was headed and it escalated. I got along with everyone before this thread and will after it is buried in the archives. I like to defend my opinions just as they do. If they stop, I stop.
Collecting Minnie Minoso Master and Basic 1967 Topps PSA 8+ 1960's Topps run Mega Set "For me, playing baseball has been like a war and I was defending the uniform I wore, Every time I put on the uniform I respected it like the American flag. I wore it like I was representing every Latin country."--Minnie Minoso
<< <i>I like to defend my opinions just as they do. If they stop, I stop. >>
Jeff True, true, so true.
I would like to tell my experience with racism again - sure tells it like is:
When I was a kid, my sisters had a French Poodle who thought he was a pit bull. They named him "Pinky." He would go up against dogs three times his size!!!
No matter how many times I'ld kick his ass for running out the door and attacking other dogs he would continue to do it.
So finally one day I grabbed him by the tail and told him - you're a freakin' frog poodle! One day you're going to get your ass kicked!
The dog looks at me and says: you're some kind of racist SOB! I bet you wouldn't have said that if I were a pit bull?!
I remember Isiah Thomas saying Larry Bird was only considered a great player because he is white. We all know this is BS. I don't think your statement is racist at all. I can relate more to Roger Clemens than Pedro Martinez. However I like Pedro a lot more. I also collect Willie Mays and Aaron. I don't care if someone has stripes and polka dots all over themselves. Obviously racism exist and will probably never go away but the Milton Bradley , Terrell Owens , Barry Bonds using that race card to me is tired. People will be separated and isolated more and more economically compared to race as time goes by. This is becoming the case in the Northeast now . Then the problem will be economic racism more than anything. Just my two cents
<< <i>All i did was say that I didn't like where this was headed and it escalated. I got along with everyone before this thread and will after it is buried in the archives. I like to defend my opinions just as they do. If they stop, I stop. >>
This is crazy. What 'opinion' do you feel compelled to defend? That racism is wrong? For Christ's sake, NOBODY HAS SAID OTHERWISE. Why can't you get this? Recognizing-- or at least theorizing-- that there is a racial dynamic that plays a role in the price of collectibles is NOT racist.
In sum-- ndleo and I suggested that Matt Jones' cards will see in an increase that is out of proportion to his on-field performance if he has a successful pro career. The reason we suggested this is because Matt Jones is white, and many collectors-- again, right or wrong-- will be attracted to his cards in a way that they wouldn't be attracted to those of a black wideout with like skills; in the same way that the Japanese are attracted to cards of Ichiro or Nomo or Matsui.
This opinion of mine and ndleo's is based not on OUR opinions of race, but on what we think are the American public's views of race. Can't you see that? I mean, isn't that just completely self evident? I keep looking back on the earlier posts in this thread and I can't for the life of me understand why you insist on objecting. You can disagree with our opinion, to be sure, but you CAN'T disagree on the basis that we're being 'racist'.
You need to think this through carefully, Jeff, because to be honest it's starting to get embarrassing. Please-- make you next post on this matter well reasoned, or I'll assume that you've willfully decided to miss the point.
Here's something analgous that might elucidate the argument.
The year is 1940. Two men apply for a job, one white and one black. The white man's qualifications are inferior, yet he gets the job anyway. Someone claims that the reason the white man got the job is because he's white.
Is this claim racist? Not the preferential hiring, but the claim that the reason the white person got the job is because of his skin color. Remember, we are considering the person here who made the proposition-- is he a racist for coming to the conclusion that the white man benefited because of his race?
NO! You'd have to be a total idiot to claim otherwise. Ditto for the Matt Jones issue. If I say that because he's white his cards will really appreciate if he has a great pro career then I'm not being racist. You can say I'm wrong, but not on the grounds of racial insensitivity.
Does that make any sense? Please, tell me it does. Otherwise I'll print up your membership card for the Flat Earth Society.
<< <i>I like to defend my opinions just as they do. If they stop, I stop. >>
Jeff
True, true, so true. >>
Stone, you have from time to time 'demanded more' from me when I've posted something either dim witted or abrasive, and I would hope that you would do the same here. Opinions are worthless if one's primary objective is to 'defend' them. Instead they should be made readily availible for scrutiny and investigation, and the holder of the opinion should welcome that. It's the only way anyone ever gets smarter.
<< <i>I like to defend my opinions just as they do. If they stop, I stop. >>
Jeff
True, true, so true. >>
Stone, you have from time to time 'demanded more' from me when I've posted something either dim witted or abrasive, and I would hope that you would do the same here. Opinions are worthless if one's primary objective is to 'defend' them. Instead they should be made readily availible for scrutiny and investigation, and the holder of the opinion should welcome that. It's the only way anyone ever gets smarter. >>
Boo I was just trying to make a point - that may be pointless - I was injecting humor into a discussion that is like a never ending story.
These boards were designed to talk about sports cards and stuff - race, religion, politics etc. usually result in some kind of heated debate. It's a no winner - there is everything from liberals to conservatives here.
Altho I could be arrested in 7 states for saying this - there is no right or wrong - just opinions. Unless you believe in absolutes - and they rarely work in discussing these kind of incindiary topics.
I apologize for the levity that was misplaced in your eyes - but.....
"Altho I could be arrested in 7 states for saying this - there is no right or wrong - just opinions. Unless you believe in absolutes - and they rarely work in discussing these kind of incindiary topics."
As I said earlier, there most certainly is a right or a wrong when the assertion is that mine and ndleo's initial posts were racist.
I'd like to hear Marge Schott's thoughts on the subject as well. I like her statement that Hitler had the right idea but he just got a little crazy towards the end. If rounding hundreds of thousands of people together, killing them, and burying them in mass graves is "a little crazy", what exactly does one have to do in order to be completely insane?
<< <i>I'd like to hear Marge Schott's thoughts on the subject as well. I like her statement that Hitler had the right idea but he just got a little crazy towards the end. If rounding hundreds of thousands of people together, killing them, and burying them in mass graves is "a little crazy", what exactly does one have to do in order to be completely insane?
Boo, I was just following up meathook's mention of people who were ousted for making racial comments about athletes in the media. Then I started rambling about some of the other crazy stuff Marge Schott said in addition to the racial epithets she spewed about black athletes on her team. I apologize if it upset you.
<< <i>Boo, I was just following up meathook's mention of people who were ousted for making racial comments about athletes in the media. Then I started rambling about some of the other crazy stuff Marge Schott said in addition to the racial epithets she spewed about black athletes on her team. I apologize if it upset you.
Lee >>
LOL- No, didn't upset me at all. Just didn't know where you were going.
I just got back into town and saw where this post went.
Jeff - You are looking for racism where it doesn't exist. I think Boopotts explained it clearly - it is our observation of the market regarding race and white WR.
If I read more clearly into your posts, you are actually saying that black ball players should be worth more that white players. That is more blatantly racist that anything Boo or I said, which is a white WR that is a star will garner extra attention and therefore more dollars in the hobby.
Carew4me is right, you cannot have a discussion regarding race with someone of your paranoid mindset.
You can call me a Klan lover or whatever you want, but don't get so high and mightly that you are the only one that can "understand".
I'm not sure I get the "race" point. That it's unusual for a white player to run fast enough or catch well enough to play wide receiver? Is it a variation on "White Men Can't Jump" ?
That's a movie I thoroughly enjoyed, by the way. But I (and most of America) would have been offended if a football movie had been made in the 1980s called "Black Men Can't Pass." Many people would have called for it to be renamed "Black Men Aren't Allowed to Pass" and they would have made a credible point.
Anyway, not sure what the race issue is with this white boy who can run and catch. That his cards will be more valuable because there aren't many white WR's? I dunno, it seems to me that unless he racks up the records and has a great career like Rice and the other legendary receivers, the color of his skin isn't gonna be much advantage.
<< <i>I just got back into town and saw where this post went.
Jeff - You are looking for racism where it doesn't exist. I think Boopotts explained it clearly - it is our observation of the market regarding race and white WR.
If I read more clearly into your posts, you are actually saying that black ball players should be worth more that white players. That is more blatantly racist that anything Boo or I said, which is a white WR that is a star will garner extra attention and therefore more dollars in the hobby.
Carew4me is right, you cannot have a discussion regarding race with someone of your paranoid mindset.
You can call me a Klan lover or whatever you want, but don't get so high and mightly that you are the only one that can "understand". >>
As if you couldn't tell I am done with this subject. Just wanted to clarify that I don't think they are worth more because they are black. Simply because they are better and have established themselves. It's your money speculate how you wish but my opinion is that you are wrong.
Collecting Minnie Minoso Master and Basic 1967 Topps PSA 8+ 1960's Topps run Mega Set "For me, playing baseball has been like a war and I was defending the uniform I wore, Every time I put on the uniform I respected it like the American flag. I wore it like I was representing every Latin country."--Minnie Minoso
<< <i>I'm not sure I get the "race" point. That it's unusual for a white player to run fast enough or catch well enough to play wide receiver? Is it a variation on "White Men Can't Jump" ?
That's a movie I thoroughly enjoyed, by the way. But I (and most of America) would have been offended if a football movie had been made in the 1980s called "Black Men Can't Pass." Many people would have called for it to be renamed "Black Men Aren't Allowed to Pass" and they would have made a credible point.
Anyway, not sure what the race issue is with this white boy who can run and catch. That his cards will be more valuable because there aren't many white WR's? I dunno, it seems to me that unless he racks up the records and has a great career like Rice and the other legendary receivers, the color of his skin isn't gonna be much advantage. >>
Anyone want to guess on who's living in the bucolic splendor of Vermont?
Edited to say: Seriously, JR, I'm just kidding around.
<< <i>Anyone want to guess on who's living in the bucolic splendor of Vermont? >>
Hey, we may be almost the whitest state in the nation, but we're also the first state that allowed civil unions and we're liberal as all get-out. Ayup.
And while we're talking about the color of money ... I think Willie's cards ought to be worth as much or more than Mick's. Yeah, yeah, I know card values are a function of popularity and demand, and Mays was / is not as popular as Mantle within a mostly white hobby. But as perhaps the best non-steroid ballplayer in history, black or white, Willie ought to get more respect from collectors.
Comments
<< <i>NickM - Ricky will miss the first four game for smoking the chronic, Ronnie is the starter for the opener.
Jeff - You asked "Do you honestly see his rookies selling higher than Jerry Rice's?"
And the answer is Yes, some of his rookies do sell for more than Rice RC. It wasn't an indictment on Rice or any other black WR.
You can taint Boopotts and my point as much as you want. We are just stating our observations. >>
Actually if you scroll up you would see that I proved that to be false. Unless you count any of the modern inserts which do not actually qualify as rookies. I don't want to taint your point but your basing your opinion of who will be successful, collectible etc all based on his skin color. Your the one who has to look in the mirror every day. Your whole delusion that this talented YOUNG seasoned pre season rookie can even be compared to Jerry Rice just shows how blinded you are by race that you can't think intelligently.
Minnie Minoso Master and Basic
1967 Topps PSA 8+
1960's Topps run Mega Set
"For me, playing baseball has been like a war and I was defending the uniform I wore, Every time I put on the uniform I respected it like the American flag. I wore it like I was representing every Latin country."--Minnie Minoso
By the way, how on earth did this thread get so far OT?
Can't we all just get along?
My eBay Store
BigCrumbs! I made over $250 last year!
Minnie Minoso Master and Basic
1967 Topps PSA 8+
1960's Topps run Mega Set
"For me, playing baseball has been like a war and I was defending the uniform I wore, Every time I put on the uniform I respected it like the American flag. I wore it like I was representing every Latin country."--Minnie Minoso
<< <i>I like to defend my opinions just as they do. If they stop, I stop. >>
Jeff
True, true, so true.
I would like to tell my experience with racism again - sure tells it like is:
When I was a kid, my sisters had a French Poodle who thought he was a pit bull. They named him "Pinky." He would go up against dogs three times his size!!!
No matter how many times I'ld kick his ass for running out the door and attacking other dogs he would continue to do it.
So finally one day I grabbed him by the tail and told him - you're a freakin' frog poodle! One day you're going to get your ass kicked!
The dog looks at me and says: you're some kind of racist SOB! I bet you wouldn't have said that if I were a pit bull?!
<< <i>All i did was say that I didn't like where this was headed and it escalated. I got along with everyone before this thread and will after it is buried in the archives. I like to defend my opinions just as they do. If they stop, I stop. >>
This is crazy. What 'opinion' do you feel compelled to defend? That racism is wrong? For Christ's sake, NOBODY HAS SAID OTHERWISE. Why can't you get this? Recognizing-- or at least theorizing-- that there is a racial dynamic that plays a role in the price of collectibles is NOT racist.
In sum-- ndleo and I suggested that Matt Jones' cards will see in an increase that is out of proportion to his on-field performance if he has a successful pro career. The reason we suggested this is because Matt Jones is white, and many collectors-- again, right or wrong-- will be attracted to his cards in a way that they wouldn't be attracted to those of a black wideout with like skills; in the same way that the Japanese are attracted to cards of Ichiro or Nomo or Matsui.
This opinion of mine and ndleo's is based not on OUR opinions of race, but on what we think are the American public's views of race. Can't you see that? I mean, isn't that just completely self evident? I keep looking back on the earlier posts in this thread and I can't for the life of me understand why you insist on objecting. You can disagree with our opinion, to be sure, but you CAN'T disagree on the basis that we're being 'racist'.
You need to think this through carefully, Jeff, because to be honest it's starting to get embarrassing. Please-- make you next post on this matter well reasoned, or I'll assume that you've willfully decided to miss the point.
The year is 1940. Two men apply for a job, one white and one black. The white man's qualifications are inferior, yet he gets the job anyway. Someone claims that the reason the white man got the job is because he's white.
Is this claim racist? Not the preferential hiring, but the claim that the reason the white person got the job is because of his skin color. Remember, we are considering the person here who made the proposition-- is he a racist for coming to the conclusion that the white man benefited because of his race?
NO! You'd have to be a total idiot to claim otherwise. Ditto for the Matt Jones issue. If I say that because he's white his cards will really appreciate if he has a great pro career then I'm not being racist. You can say I'm wrong, but not on the grounds of racial insensitivity.
Does that make any sense? Please, tell me it does. Otherwise I'll print up your membership card for the Flat Earth Society.
You cannot have an intelligent conversation about race with a guy like this.
Loves me some shiny!
Lee
<< <i>
<< <i>I like to defend my opinions just as they do. If they stop, I stop. >>
Jeff
True, true, so true. >>
Stone, you have from time to time 'demanded more' from me when I've posted something either dim witted or abrasive, and I would hope that you would do the same here. Opinions are worthless if one's primary objective is to 'defend' them. Instead they should be made readily availible for scrutiny and investigation, and the holder of the opinion should welcome that. It's the only way anyone ever gets smarter.
Nick
Reap the whirlwind.
Need to buy something for the wife or girlfriend? Check out Vintage Designer Clothing.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I like to defend my opinions just as they do. If they stop, I stop. >>
Jeff
True, true, so true. >>
Stone, you have from time to time 'demanded more' from me when I've posted something either dim witted or abrasive, and I would hope that you would do the same here. Opinions are worthless if one's primary objective is to 'defend' them. Instead they should be made readily availible for scrutiny and investigation, and the holder of the opinion should welcome that. It's the only way anyone ever gets smarter. >>
Boo
I was just trying to make a point - that may be pointless - I was injecting humor into a discussion that is like a never ending story.
These boards were designed to talk about sports cards and stuff - race, religion, politics etc. usually result in some kind of heated debate. It's a no winner - there is everything from liberals to conservatives here.
Altho I could be arrested in 7 states for saying this - there is no right or wrong - just opinions. Unless you believe in absolutes - and they rarely work in discussing these kind of incindiary topics.
I apologize for the levity that was misplaced in your eyes - but.....
I'm done.
mike
As I said earlier, there most certainly is a right or a wrong when the assertion is that mine and ndleo's initial posts were racist.
Did Al Campanis and Jimmy The Greek chime in?
Robert Byrd?
Lee
<< <i>I'd like to hear Marge Schott's thoughts on the subject as well. I like her statement that Hitler had the right idea but he just got a little crazy towards the end. If rounding hundreds of thousands of people together, killing them, and burying them in mass graves is "a little crazy", what exactly does one have to do in order to be completely insane?
Lee >>
What the hell does this have to do with anything?
SD
<< <i>I ate a big red candle.
Lee >>
uhh.. i guess that's OK.. you sure it wasnt a red rocket?
I was just following up meathook's mention of people who were ousted for making racial comments about athletes in the media. Then I started rambling about some of the other crazy stuff Marge Schott said in addition to the racial epithets she spewed about black athletes on her team. I apologize if it upset you.
Lee
<< <i>Boo,
I was just following up meathook's mention of people who were ousted for making racial comments about athletes in the media. Then I started rambling about some of the other crazy stuff Marge Schott said in addition to the racial epithets she spewed about black athletes on her team. I apologize if it upset you.
Lee >>
LOL- No, didn't upset me at all. Just didn't know where you were going.
Lee
<< <i>I'm one of those tangential guys who's mind wanders off the topic being discussed. Don't mind me.
Lee >>
Join the club. How do you think this whole thing started
Jeff - You are looking for racism where it doesn't exist. I think Boopotts explained it clearly - it is our observation of the market regarding race and white WR.
If I read more clearly into your posts, you are actually saying that black ball players should be worth more that white players. That is more blatantly racist that anything Boo or I said, which is a white WR that is a star will garner extra attention and therefore more dollars in the hobby.
Carew4me is right, you cannot have a discussion regarding race with someone of your paranoid mindset.
You can call me a Klan lover or whatever you want, but don't get so high and mightly that you are the only one that can "understand".
Nick
Reap the whirlwind.
Need to buy something for the wife or girlfriend? Check out Vintage Designer Clothing.
Lee
<< <i>When I was a kid, my sisters had a French Poodle who thought he was a pit bull. He would go up against dogs three times his size!!!
No matter how many times I'ld kick his ass for running out the door and attacking other dogs he would continue to do it.
So finally one day I grabbed him by the tail and told him - you're a freakin' frog poodle! One day you're going to get your ass kicked!
The dog looks at me and says: you're some kind of racist bastard! I bet you wouldn't say that if I were a pit bull?!
Gotta hand it to the dog, being a French poodle and all.
At least he didn't surrender every time he saw another dog.
Regards,
Jimmy the Greek
If I hadn't been a white wide receiver and a Dallas Cowboy I may have never preferred young girls over Joey Heatherton.
Love,
Lance Rentzel
Thank God for stickum.
Sincerely,
Fred Bilitnekoff
Regards,
Gaylord Perry
or
Ron Jeremy
Your Friend,
Art Schlichter
That's a movie I thoroughly enjoyed, by the way. But I (and most of America) would have been offended if a football movie had been made in the 1980s called "Black Men Can't Pass." Many people would have called for it to be renamed "Black Men Aren't Allowed to Pass" and they would have made a credible point.
Anyway, not sure what the race issue is with this white boy who can run and catch. That his cards will be more valuable because there aren't many white WR's? I dunno, it seems to me that unless he racks up the records and has a great career like Rice and the other legendary receivers, the color of his skin isn't gonna be much advantage.
<< <i>I just got back into town and saw where this post went.
Jeff - You are looking for racism where it doesn't exist. I think Boopotts explained it clearly - it is our observation of the market regarding race and white WR.
If I read more clearly into your posts, you are actually saying that black ball players should be worth more that white players. That is more blatantly racist that anything Boo or I said, which is a white WR that is a star will garner extra attention and therefore more dollars in the hobby.
Carew4me is right, you cannot have a discussion regarding race with someone of your paranoid mindset.
You can call me a Klan lover or whatever you want, but don't get so high and mightly that you are the only one that can "understand". >>
As if you couldn't tell I am done with this subject. Just wanted to clarify that I don't think they are worth more because they are black. Simply because they are better and have established themselves. It's your money speculate how you wish but my opinion is that you are wrong.
Minnie Minoso Master and Basic
1967 Topps PSA 8+
1960's Topps run Mega Set
"For me, playing baseball has been like a war and I was defending the uniform I wore, Every time I put on the uniform I respected it like the American flag. I wore it like I was representing every Latin country."--Minnie Minoso
<< <i>I'm not sure I get the "race" point. That it's unusual for a white player to run fast enough or catch well enough to play wide receiver? Is it a variation on "White Men Can't Jump" ?
That's a movie I thoroughly enjoyed, by the way. But I (and most of America) would have been offended if a football movie had been made in the 1980s called "Black Men Can't Pass." Many people would have called for it to be renamed "Black Men Aren't Allowed to Pass" and they would have made a credible point.
Anyway, not sure what the race issue is with this white boy who can run and catch. That his cards will be more valuable because there aren't many white WR's? I dunno, it seems to me that unless he racks up the records and has a great career like Rice and the other legendary receivers, the color of his skin isn't gonna be much advantage. >>
Anyone want to guess on who's living in the bucolic splendor of Vermont?
Edited to say: Seriously, JR, I'm just kidding around.
<< <i>Anyone want to guess on who's living in the bucolic splendor of Vermont?
Hey, we may be almost the whitest state in the nation, but we're also the first state that allowed civil unions and we're liberal as all get-out. Ayup.
And while we're talking about the color of money ... I think Willie's cards ought to be worth as much or more than Mick's. Yeah, yeah, I know card values are a function of popularity and demand, and Mays was / is not as popular as Mantle within a mostly white hobby. But as perhaps the best non-steroid ballplayer in history, black or white, Willie ought to get more respect from collectors.