Fat Man's post is spot in. He is 100% correct in provoking thoughts around the current usefulness of TPG's. Yes, I think anyone would admit TPG's do provide some assurance around authentication and prevention against OBVIOUSLY doctored coins. But to assess an attach a grade to a coin that will stand for several years - not a chance, To preserve and reward originality - not a chance. Profits would need to be sacraficed and the TPG's will never do that - so the hobby and traditonal collectors will be sacraficed instead. I have no doubt that at least 50% of coins graded before 2000 which were resubmitted over the last few years are in higher grades/designations and that hundreds of thousands of original no problem coins were forever lost to conservation artists or the strip and dippers. If you think this is an outlandish statement, you are in for a rude awakening. A few month's of tigthening on the heels of a scandal when everyone is watching, does not make up for years upon years of optimistic grading, conserving, and gifting.
The way I see it, in about 10 years, one or the other (TPG's as they exist today or original technically sound coins for the grade) will be extinct. Well, I sure hope the coins make it. This is a hobby about coin collecting ? isn't it ?
One of the local shops doesn't submit, and they buy daily. The proprietor is a friend and great guy. Much of the nicest stuff he's purchased over the last 10-15 years goes into his private collection, and won't emerge till he's ready to quit the hobby. It is possible on any given day to purchase 5,000-10,000 classic coins raw within a 50 mile radius of my home, most of which would holder, and some of which would surprise the community. Early dollars, early 19th century coins, etc, etc, are abundant enough if I were willing to empty my wallet. I guess the overhang is partly based on price, and certainly the number of coins submitted is based on the market. Many coins work when the market rises just a fraction. Maybe the number of coins holdered is at least partly a function of the good market. I've seen several complete classic capital sets in very high grade that I know have never been submitted. My own feeling is that the latent population of almost everything is probably at least double what has been revealed. Some of the coins unknown to the hobby are very nice. JMO. I do feel though that Fatman has a great point regarding holdered coins. I think the only coins relevant to his discussion are the coins known to the hobby.
Developing theory is what we are meant to do as academic researchers and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
<< <i>No matter how much we complain about the TPG services and grading variations, it is still better than the even greater debate on grades of raw coins. >>
<< <i>How about a reply to the second sentence. >>
With all the plastic games being played today are the TPGs providing a net gain to collectors? In my mind not at the present. I believe the original concept was a positive for collectors, but they have moved well beyond creating consistency in the hobby. The TPGs today have created a product that is sold as a value added service that in reality will cost collectors in the long run. Lets look at what is going on in the current year modern market today. How many millions of wasted dollars are being spent on Bullion, modern proofs, modern commemoratives simply because the TPGs put a 69 or 70 on the label? Are the collectors really gaining any value from the higher cost of collecting these coins in plastic versus collecting them in US Mint Packaging? Is it good for a collector to pay $75.00 for a set of slabbed Proof 69 State Quarters, instead of simply collecting the entire proof set that costs $32.00 directly from the mint. Is there really a difference in the coins? The pops suggest that anything lower than a 69 is the real rarity. Taken to next extreme, is it a good thing for a collector to pay hundreds of dollars for a single state quarter proof or SAE proof because a TPG puts a 70 on the holder. Can you tell the difference? How many of those Proof 70s would come back as Proof 70s if resubmitted? How many would even have the guts to try? Very few cause there is little to no difference. I have submitted several SAEs. I had one come back as a PR70DCAM. Do I know what the difference is between that one and the others? Don't have a clue. The TPGs invented this market at the expense of collectors. So, I ask, is this a good thing?
As for the more classic coins, in my opinion the great majority have been holdered. But that is still an open issue. I say great. If they continue until every raw coin is accurately graded and remain in business it would be great. But, instead they are encouraging the crack-out game to increase profits. (See first post by how.) The onslaught of crack-outs and resubmissions only works against the collector, unless it is the collector himself enters the fray. The constant upgrading based upon the changing standards only diminishes the value of long held personal collections, that is unless the collector cracks and resubmits over and over again until their coins end up in maxed out slabs as well when they go to sell. The only difference between what dealers did years ago vs today is that now they have to work a little harder and pay their dues to the TPG to sell you an overgraded coin. They of course are more than happy to buy your undergraded 64 slab that you have held for many years at discounted 64 prices, then crack it and get it back at 65 and sell it as a PQ 65. Sounds very familiar to the old days, only the dealer even gets to be a standup guy and retains more credibility because after all, it has been blessed by a TPG. Please note that I do not believe all dealers operate in this manner. I know many dealers who find this crack-out game to be as distasteful as me. I also believe that many dealers in the pre-TPG days were honest and that all were not the scoundrels that are often referenced. But currently to me the landscape doesn't look all that much different, the method has changed but the result is pretty much the same.
There is no doubt in my mind that TPGs have have successfully sold a false sense of security to collectors. We collectors all need to open our eyes and realize that the TPGs first interest is to maintain profitability. Next in their pecking order of concerns are the dealers who are paying them huge sums of money. Although the TPGs do a good job of coddling collectors, unfortunately, they fall low on the list.
The sky is not falling. This is not the end of the hobby. But if some eyes are opened and a few collectors see some things here that they couldn't see after drinking the Kool-Aid for several years it will be a good thing. The slab market has changed over the years. In general the idea is a good one. The problem today is many of the negatives currenty employed in the slab business may just be outweighing the benifits to collectors. So collectors..beware.
I do agree that corporate pressures could cause some damage rather than being in the collector's best interest. Usually a stock gains value based on growth. Profitable but stagnant isn't enough. Perhaps that's the reason for some of the novelty holders TPGs have offered that seem targeted for the TV coin buyer. I'm am sure there are many new "features" in the pipeline (like variety designations and the like) that will be added when more $ growth is needed. If is was all about the collector, we'd probably already have a TPG that was "everything" we want in a TPG. In time, maybe we will.
Inconsistency/Market grading is the biggest problem I have with the whole thing. I am also a fan of TPGs (mostly for authentication) but I am turned off by the fact that many times the same coin will yield different results if resubmitted. The technology is out there to fix all this. It wouldn't be a small task but it could be done. I'd like to see a TPG that had a purely technical grade and a completely consistent grading system (i.e. computer - as has been the topic of many a past thread) that could even check if the coin had been graded by them previously (insuring accurate populations). Leave the eye appeal subjective part up to the owner/buyer/seller to decide. But that wouldn't help the TPGs bottom line, would it?
Personally I don't have the finances to "play the game" and perhaps that's a good thing. I do submit my own coins sometimes, usually with no intention to sell the coins. I've never re-submitted. And I've found more enjoyment collecting into albums for now, even when it means cracking a slab to do it. I guess I realized that deciding whether or not I like a coin, at whatever price it is, is more important than what a third party opinion is.
No, I don't think TPGs have out-lived their usefulness. But they will certainly need to change as the hobby does to maintain growth. So far the big ones have done a pretty good job at that.
Great thread. TPGs in the hobby is always an interesting topic.
-Bob collections: Maryland related coins & exonumia, 7070 Type set, and Video Arcade Tokens. The Low Budget Y2K Registry Set
<< <i>One of the local shops doesn't submit, and they buy daily. The proprietor is a friend and great guy. Much of the nicest stuff he's purchased over the last 10-15 years goes into his private collection, and won't emerge till he's ready to quit the hobby. It is possible on any given day to purchase 5,000-10,000 classic coins raw within a 50 mile radius of my home, most of which would holder, and some of which would surprise the community. Early dollars, early 19th century coins, etc, etc, are abundant enough if I were willing to empty my wallet. I guess the overhang is partly based on price, and certainly the number of coins submitted is based on the market. Many coins work when the market rises just a fraction. Maybe the number of coins holdered is at least partly a function of the good market. I've seen several complete classic capital sets in very high grade that I know have never been submitted. My own feeling is that the latent population of almost everything is probably at least double what has been revealed. Some of the coins unknown to the hobby are very nice. JMO. I do feel though that Fatman has a great point regarding holdered coins. I think the only coins relevant to his discussion are the coins known to the hobby. >>
The mint made billions of coins before 1931. Very few of these were ever systematically recalled and melted. They did melt a significant number of silver dollars after WW I and they did recall and destroy half cents and large cents but there is no indication that significant percentages of these were destroyed. Most of the old coins circulated with very high velocity until they were hoarded for their silver or metallic value or put into storage for backing of specie. It is the various types of hoarding which makes them still available today. If not for natural attrition most of the old coins would still exist today. But the effects of attrition are hardly in- consequential. About 1% of artifacs are lost each year to fires, floods and other ravages of time.
Despite the natural loss and the systematic destruction there are still billions of these old coins in existence. The primary reason more aren't graded is that many of these are low grade or culls but there are some coins with large values all the way down to very low grade yet even these are often dramatically underrepresented in the pop reports. There's an old thread about the 1916-D dime that was never fully addressed.
One has to believe that with many coins (especially widely popular ones from the last century) the primary determinant of whether a coin is slabbed or not is whether it has sold on the market or not in recent years. Many non-collectors and out of the mainstream collectors have this material and when it is eventually sold it will usually get slabbed.
<< <i>I have to believe that many more of these "Classics" have been previously graded than are being graded for the first time. >>
I'm also a believer of this. I've read how only a fraction of the Classics have been graded. However, just try to sell high-end pieces raw at auction or to a dealer and you'll find out pretty quickly what potential buyers think. Immediately, many collectors view such coins as problem pieces whether or not they actually deserves it.
<< <i>Immediately, many collectors view such coins as problem pieces whether or not they actually deserves it. >>
Yep. But on the flip side, it's a great opportunity for folks who have the time, patience and knowledge to find the diamonds in the rough at discount prices, get them encapsulated and re-sell them. It's sort of the numismatic equivalent to folks who buy real estate to fix it up and sell it at a profit.
FUN 2005 Concluded: Market Strength for Rare Coins Unabated by Enormous New Supply
Perhaps this is timely to the thread. >>
The enormous new supply Maben referred to was the result of the mega sized auctions that took place at the show. This is not new raw supply, virtually all was certified previously. But I will also note, with the exception of the Gold Rush Gallery Collection, most of the lots took a trip to the TPGs prior to the auctions to buy some fancy new upgraded plastic.
The grading companies are going to be around for the rest of our lives and I'll tell you why. I worked for a company that installed waterbeds, and we used to wonder how many people could possibly need a waterbed. If memory serves me correctly, I believe there were 5 trucks that delivered 5-6 beds a day. I still see those trucks today, 26 years later, only difference is that the trucks are newer and now they work on Saturday.
They had outlived their usefulness the day after the first one opened. At least any usefulness other than the rapid acceleration of the current trend of grade inflation.
Just because I'm old doesn't mean I don't love to look at a pretty bust.
Possibly for seasoned collectors. The TPG's could be a life saver for many of the new collectors that have entered the hobby. Once they get their feet wet probably they will think the TPG's have outlived their usefulness also.
<< <i>Possibly for seasoned collectors. The TPG's could be a life saver for many of the new collectors that have entered the hobby. Once they get their feet wet probably they will think the TPG's have outlived their usefulness also.
<< <i>Possibly for seasoned collectors. The TPG's could be a life saver for many of the new collectors that have entered the hobby. Once they get their feet wet probably they will think the TPG's have outlived their usefulness also.
Ken >>
That is an extremely accurate statement. >>
And I third that. Missed this thread originally, and when I read Fat's opening post just now, new collectors came to mind as who benefits the most from the tpg's. As to the rest, I'm ambivalent.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
Started collecting in 1978. PCGS came along in 1986 and I thought that the small collector like me would be protected by the "experts" at PCGS, NGC, etc. Right! You not only had to learn how to grade raw coins then, you now have to learn how to grade slabbed coins today because there are so many toads in top TPG slabs! TPGs serve a purpose in that they help the new collector and they help with authentication, but I feel thay have lost a great deal of credibility.
<< <i>Possibly for seasoned collectors. The TPG's could be a life saver for many of the new collectors that have entered the hobby. Once they get their feet wet probably they will think the TPG's have outlived their usefulness also.
Ken >>
That is an extremely accurate statement. >>
And I third that. Missed this thread originally, and when I read Fat's opening post just now, new collectors came to mind as who benefits the most from the tpg's. As to the rest, I'm ambivalent. >>
On the contrary, new collectors benefit THE LEAST from the TPG's not the most. It's lambs to the slaughter as new collectors now think that they need no info on what they are collecting in, that they need not learn how to grade, that they are protected from buying someone else's problem. All they need to know is that it is in plastic. At least before the TPGs when a dealer ripped a new collector it was for 10 to 20 (maybe 100) bucks; now it is for 1000's.
Just because I'm old doesn't mean I don't love to look at a pretty bust.
<< <i>Possibly for seasoned collectors. The TPG's could be a life saver for many of the new collectors that have entered the hobby. Once they get their feet wet probably they will think the TPG's have outlived their usefulness also.
Ken >>
That is an extremely accurate statement. >>
Can't agree more, but I do believe there are many that don't agree.
<< <i> Possibly for seasoned collectors. The TPG's could be a life saver for many of the new collectors that have entered the hobby. Once they get their feet wet probably they will think the TPG's have outlived their usefulness also. >>
<< <i>On the contrary, new collectors benefit THE LEAST from the TPG's not the most. It's lambs to the slaughter as new collectors now think that they need no info on what they are collecting in, that they need not learn how to grade, that they are protected from buying someone else's problem. All they need to know is that it is in plastic. At least before the TPGs when a dealer ripped a new collector it was for 10 to 20 (maybe 100) bucks; now it is for 1000's. >>
Although at first read some may find these two statements to be opposing views, however I actually agree with both posters and believe both views are valid. The TPG holdered coins can be a life saver for new collectors, but they are not fool proof and the longer one relies on them they will continually get unknowingly burned on multiple occasions.
But regarding these points, if we can agree that the great majority of $200+ coins have already been holdered, hasn't the job of the TPGs been nearly completed. I am of the opinion that they are now simply playing games to stay in business. And the games are costing collectors more and more every day.
You mean like First Strikes Fats, and talk of a 100 point grading scale? I think that more are seeing the picture than we might realize at first sight.
<< <i>Possibly for seasoned collectors. The TPG's could be a life saver for many of the new collectors that have entered the hobby. Once they get their feet wet probably they will think the TPG's have outlived their usefulness also.
Ken >>
That is an extremely accurate statement. >>
And I third that. Missed this thread originally, and when I read Fat's opening post just now, new collectors came to mind as who benefits the most from the tpg's. As to the rest, I'm ambivalent. >>
On the contrary, new collectors benefit THE LEAST from the TPG's not the most. It's lambs to the slaughter as new collectors now think that they need no info on what they are collecting in, that they need not learn how to grade, that they are protected from buying someone else's problem. All they need to know is that it is in plastic. At least before the TPGs when a dealer ripped a new collector it was for 10 to 20 (maybe 100) bucks; now it is for 1000's. >>
If a new collector just buys and has no intent to learn anything then they need to be lead to the slaughter. TPG grading can teach a new collector how to grade somewhat. If the same collector continues to grade by the TPG standard and not a standard that they have set for themselves then I guess I have to agree with you to a point.
<< <i>Possibly for seasoned collectors. The TPG's could be a life saver for many of the new collectors that have entered the hobby. Once they get their feet wet probably they will think the TPG's have outlived their usefulness also.
Ken >>
That is an extremely accurate statement. >>
And I third that. Missed this thread originally, and when I read Fat's opening post just now, new collectors came to mind as who benefits the most from the tpg's. As to the rest, I'm ambivalent. >>
On the contrary, new collectors benefit THE LEAST from the TPG's not the most. It's lambs to the slaughter as new collectors now think that they need no info on what they are collecting in, that they need not learn how to grade, that they are protected from buying someone else's problem. All they need to know is that it is in plastic. At least before the TPGs when a dealer ripped a new collector it was for 10 to 20 (maybe 100) bucks; now it is for 1000's. >>
Oh yeah, from that standpoint you are certainly right. But I still think they are seeing fairly accurately graded coins, versus when I started and struggled to discern the vague terms g/f/vf/xf etc and the differentiation that came with every individual's definition of same. You're right, they still need to learn to grade.
Fatman, I think you've made a very valid, perceptive argument. I still think there are a lot more coins that have not been through their mill, but my focus is on finding them raw, and submitting some of those. The classics you speak of, however, the over $200 coins, I think you are on to something.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
<< <i>In my ideal TPG company, the company would provide the following: 1. Authentication with a guarantee 2. Coin protection 3. Grade optional 4. Originality designation 5. A clear, scratch-resistent plastic holder that makes it easy to photography the coin 6. An optional photography service 7. No favors no matter how small/large the submitter >>
These from RYK are what I thought TPG`s where about all about especially with regard to #1 and #4. Lesser so to #2 and #3. With fakes of coin classics in the pre PCGS/NGC/ANACS days, it was a problem then and still is among raw coins.
<< <i>Grade inflation: creates a need to resubmit coin so the label reflects the ever changing standard >>
Maybe it also means that they see things differently sometimes. I assume that you agree with the grade given to all of the coins that you own which are slabbed. If I was to come and take your coins, crack em out and return em in flips in 6 months, could you give them all the exact same grade that they had before? If I was to exchange a few would you know which ones were changed?
<< <i>Grade inflation: creates a need to resubmit coin so the label reflects the ever changing standard >>
Maybe it also means that they see things differently sometimes. >>
So do you believe grade inflation over the past 15 years has not occured?
<< <i>I assume that you agree with the grade given to all of the coins that you own which are slabbe. If I was to come and take your coins, crack em out and return em in flips in 6 months, could you give them all the exact same grade that they had before? If I was to exchange a few would you know which ones were changed? >>
I do not agree with with all the grades given to the coins I own. Some are over graded and some are undergraded. In fact, if you were to check out my commem 50 type registry set across the street I openly write about my differing opinions, both higher and lower. I buy the coin, not the holder.
If you were to take my coins and return them in flips six months later I am confident that I could give them the same grade what I believe today. And it would be a no brainer to pick out any that were exchanged. Of course, I don't buy ordinary coins so mine are easy to identify.
This is one of the easiest questions ever on this Forum. NO, the TPG's have not outlived their usefulness to the hobby. If they had, no one would be submitting coins to them anymore. So they still serve a function, and people are agreeing that they still serve a function, by submitting coins to them.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
Comments
The way I see it, in about 10 years, one or the other (TPG's as they exist today or original technically sound coins for the grade) will be extinct. Well, I sure hope the coins make it. This is a hobby about coin collecting ? isn't it ?
Fatman - I loved this post !!!!!!!!!
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
<< <i>No matter how much we complain about the TPG services and grading variations, it is still better than the even greater debate on grades of raw coins. >>
<< <i>How about a reply to the second sentence. >>
With all the plastic games being played today are the TPGs providing a net gain to collectors? In my mind not at the present. I believe the original concept was a positive for collectors, but they have moved well beyond creating consistency in the hobby. The TPGs today have created a product that is sold as a value added service that in reality will cost collectors in the long run. Lets look at what is going on in the current year modern market today. How many millions of wasted dollars are being spent on Bullion, modern proofs, modern commemoratives simply because the TPGs put a 69 or 70 on the label? Are the collectors really gaining any value from the higher cost of collecting these coins in plastic versus collecting them in US Mint Packaging? Is it good for a collector to pay $75.00 for a set of slabbed Proof 69 State Quarters, instead of simply collecting the entire proof set that costs $32.00 directly from the mint. Is there really a difference in the coins? The pops suggest that anything lower than a 69 is the real rarity. Taken to next extreme, is it a good thing for a collector to pay hundreds of dollars for a single state quarter proof or SAE proof because a TPG puts a 70 on the holder. Can you tell the difference? How many of those Proof 70s would come back as Proof 70s if resubmitted? How many would even have the guts to try? Very few cause there is little to no difference. I have submitted several SAEs. I had one come back as a PR70DCAM. Do I know what the difference is between that one and the others? Don't have a clue. The TPGs invented this market at the expense of collectors. So, I ask, is this a good thing?
As for the more classic coins, in my opinion the great majority have been holdered. But that is still an open issue. I say great. If they continue until every raw coin is accurately graded and remain in business it would be great. But, instead they are encouraging the crack-out game to increase profits. (See first post by how.) The onslaught of crack-outs and resubmissions only works against the collector, unless it is the collector himself enters the fray. The constant upgrading based upon the changing standards only diminishes the value of long held personal collections, that is unless the collector cracks and resubmits over and over again until their coins end up in maxed out slabs as well when they go to sell. The only difference between what dealers did years ago vs today is that now they have to work a little harder and pay their dues to the TPG to sell you an overgraded coin. They of course are more than happy to buy your undergraded 64 slab that you have held for many years at discounted 64 prices, then crack it and get it back at 65 and sell it as a PQ 65. Sounds very familiar to the old days, only the dealer even gets to be a standup guy and retains more credibility because after all, it has been blessed by a TPG. Please note that I do not believe all dealers operate in this manner. I know many dealers who find this crack-out game to be as distasteful as me. I also believe that many dealers in the pre-TPG days were honest and that all were not the scoundrels that are often referenced. But currently to me the landscape doesn't look all that much different, the method has changed but the result is pretty much the same.
There is no doubt in my mind that TPGs have have successfully sold a false sense of security to collectors. We collectors all need to open our eyes and realize that the TPGs first interest is to maintain profitability. Next in their pecking order of concerns are the dealers who are paying them huge sums of money. Although the TPGs do a good job of coddling collectors, unfortunately, they fall low on the list.
<< <i>The sky is falling! The sky is falling! >>
The sky is not falling. This is not the end of the hobby. But if some eyes are opened and a few collectors see some things here that they couldn't see after drinking the Kool-Aid for several years it will be a good thing. The slab market has changed over the years. In general the idea is a good one. The problem today is many of the negatives currenty employed in the slab business may just be outweighing the benifits to collectors. So collectors..beware.
Inconsistency/Market grading is the biggest problem I have with the whole thing. I am also a fan of TPGs (mostly for authentication) but I am turned off by the fact that many times the same coin will yield different results if resubmitted. The technology is out there to fix all this. It wouldn't be a small task but it could be done. I'd like to see a TPG that had a purely technical grade and a completely consistent grading system (i.e. computer - as has been the topic of many a past thread) that could even check if the coin had been graded by them previously (insuring accurate populations). Leave the eye appeal subjective part up to the owner/buyer/seller to decide. But that wouldn't help the TPGs bottom line, would it?
Personally I don't have the finances to "play the game" and perhaps that's a good thing. I do submit my own coins sometimes, usually with no intention to sell the coins. I've never re-submitted. And I've found more enjoyment collecting into albums for now, even when it means cracking a slab to do it. I guess I realized that deciding whether or not I like a coin, at whatever price it is, is more important than what a third party opinion is.
No, I don't think TPGs have out-lived their usefulness. But they will certainly need to change as the hobby does to maintain growth. So far the big ones have done a pretty good job at that.
Great thread. TPGs in the hobby is always an interesting topic.
collections: Maryland related coins & exonumia, 7070 Type set, and Video Arcade Tokens.
The Low Budget Y2K Registry Set
<< <i>One of the local shops doesn't submit, and they buy daily. The proprietor is a friend and great guy. Much of the nicest stuff he's purchased over the last 10-15 years goes into his private collection, and won't emerge till he's ready to quit the hobby. It is possible on any given day to purchase 5,000-10,000 classic coins raw within a 50 mile radius of my home, most of which would holder, and some of which would surprise the community. Early dollars, early 19th century coins, etc, etc, are abundant enough if I were willing to empty my wallet. I guess the overhang is partly based on price, and certainly the number of coins submitted is based on the market. Many coins work when the market rises just a fraction. Maybe the number of coins holdered is at least partly a function of the good market. I've seen several complete classic capital sets in very high grade that I know have never been submitted. My own feeling is that the latent population of almost everything is probably at least double what has been revealed. Some of the coins unknown to the hobby are very nice. JMO. I do feel though that Fatman has a great point regarding holdered coins. I think the only coins relevant to his discussion are the coins known to the hobby. >>
The mint made billions of coins before 1931. Very few of these were ever systematically recalled and melted.
They did melt a significant number of silver dollars after WW I and they did recall and destroy half cents and
large cents but there is no indication that significant percentages of these were destroyed. Most of the old
coins circulated with very high velocity until they were hoarded for their silver or metallic value or put into
storage for backing of specie. It is the various types of hoarding which makes them still available today. If
not for natural attrition most of the old coins would still exist today. But the effects of attrition are hardly in-
consequential. About 1% of artifacs are lost each year to fires, floods and other ravages of time.
Despite the natural loss and the systematic destruction there are still billions of these old coins in existence.
The primary reason more aren't graded is that many of these are low grade or culls but there are some coins
with large values all the way down to very low grade yet even these are often dramatically underrepresented
in the pop reports. There's an old thread about the 1916-D dime that was never fully addressed.
One has to believe that with many coins (especially widely popular ones from the last century) the primary
determinant of whether a coin is slabbed or not is whether it has sold on the market or not in recent years.
Many non-collectors and out of the mainstream collectors have this material and when it is eventually sold
it will usually get slabbed.
MARKET REPORT
Breaking news:
FUN 2005 Concluded: Market Strength for Rare Coins Unabated by Enormous New Supply
Perhaps this is timely to the thread.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
<< <i>I have to believe that many more of these "Classics" have been previously graded than are being graded for the first time. >>
I'm also a believer of this. I've read how only a fraction of the Classics have been graded. However, just try to sell high-end pieces raw at auction or to a dealer and you'll find out pretty quickly what potential buyers think. Immediately, many collectors view such coins as problem pieces whether or not they actually deserves it.
<< <i>Immediately, many collectors view such coins as problem pieces whether or not they actually deserves it. >>
Yep. But on the flip side, it's a great opportunity for folks who have the time, patience and knowledge to find the diamonds in the rough at discount prices, get them encapsulated and re-sell them. It's sort of the numismatic equivalent to folks who buy real estate to fix it up and sell it at a profit.
<< <i>Mr.Maben's show report.
MARKET REPORT
Breaking news:
FUN 2005 Concluded: Market Strength for Rare Coins Unabated by Enormous New Supply
Perhaps this is timely to the thread. >>
The enormous new supply Maben referred to was the result of the mega sized auctions that took place at the show. This is not new raw supply, virtually all was certified previously. But I will also note, with the exception of the Gold Rush Gallery Collection, most of the lots took a trip to the TPGs prior to the auctions to buy some fancy new upgraded plastic.
ttt
Have the TPGs out-lived their usefulness to the market? DEFINITELY NOT.
<< <i>Have the TPGs out-lived their usefulness to the hobby? >>
Nope.
I still see those trucks today, 26 years later, only difference is that the trucks are newer and now they work on Saturday.
Ken
<< <i>Possibly for seasoned collectors. The TPG's could be a life saver for many of the new collectors that have entered the hobby. Once they get their feet wet probably they will think the TPG's have outlived their usefulness also.
Ken >>
That is an extremely accurate statement.
<< <i>
<< <i>Possibly for seasoned collectors. The TPG's could be a life saver for many of the new collectors that have entered the hobby. Once they get their feet wet probably they will think the TPG's have outlived their usefulness also.
Ken >>
That is an extremely accurate statement. >>
And I third that. Missed this thread originally, and when I read Fat's opening post just now, new collectors came to mind as who benefits the most from the tpg's. As to the rest, I'm ambivalent.
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
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<< <i>Possibly for seasoned collectors. The TPG's could be a life saver for many of the new collectors that have entered the hobby. Once they get their feet wet probably they will think the TPG's have outlived their usefulness also.
Ken >>
That is an extremely accurate statement. >>
And I third that. Missed this thread originally, and when I read Fat's opening post just now, new collectors came to mind as who benefits the most from the tpg's. As to the rest, I'm ambivalent. >>
On the contrary, new collectors benefit THE LEAST from the TPG's not the most. It's lambs to the slaughter as new collectors now think that they need no info on what they are collecting in, that they need not learn how to grade, that they are protected from buying someone else's problem. All they need to know is that it is in plastic. At least before the TPGs when a dealer ripped a new collector it was for 10 to 20 (maybe 100) bucks; now it is for 1000's.
<< <i>
<< <i>Possibly for seasoned collectors. The TPG's could be a life saver for many of the new collectors that have entered the hobby. Once they get their feet wet probably they will think the TPG's have outlived their usefulness also.
Ken >>
That is an extremely accurate statement. >>
Can't agree more, but I do believe there are many that don't agree.
<< <i> Possibly for seasoned collectors. The TPG's could be a life saver for many of the new collectors that have entered the hobby. Once they get their feet wet probably they will think the TPG's have outlived their usefulness also. >>
<< <i>On the contrary, new collectors benefit THE LEAST from the TPG's not the most. It's lambs to the slaughter as new collectors now think that they need no info on what they are collecting in, that they need not learn how to grade, that they are protected from buying someone else's problem. All they need to know is that it is in plastic. At least before the TPGs when a dealer ripped a new collector it was for 10 to 20 (maybe 100) bucks; now it is for 1000's. >>
Although at first read some may find these two statements to be opposing views, however I actually agree with both posters and believe both views are valid. The TPG holdered coins can be a life saver for new collectors, but they are not fool proof and the longer one relies on them they will continually get unknowingly burned on multiple occasions.
But regarding these points, if we can agree that the great majority of $200+ coins have already been holdered, hasn't the job of the TPGs been nearly completed. I am of the opinion that they are now simply playing games to stay in business. And the games are costing collectors more and more every day.
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<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Possibly for seasoned collectors. The TPG's could be a life saver for many of the new collectors that have entered the hobby. Once they get their feet wet probably they will think the TPG's have outlived their usefulness also.
Ken >>
That is an extremely accurate statement. >>
And I third that. Missed this thread originally, and when I read Fat's opening post just now, new collectors came to mind as who benefits the most from the tpg's. As to the rest, I'm ambivalent. >>
On the contrary, new collectors benefit THE LEAST from the TPG's not the most. It's lambs to the slaughter as new collectors now think that they need no info on what they are collecting in, that they need not learn how to grade, that they are protected from buying someone else's problem. All they need to know is that it is in plastic. At least before the TPGs when a dealer ripped a new collector it was for 10 to 20 (maybe 100) bucks; now it is for 1000's. >>
If a new collector just buys and has no intent to learn anything then they need to be lead to the slaughter. TPG grading can teach a new collector how to grade somewhat. If the same collector continues to grade by the TPG standard and not a standard that they have set for themselves then I guess I have to agree with you to a point.
I also believe both points are valid.
Ken
I think this is a very accurate statement- and it's good for numismatics that these issues are discussed, with a minimum of koolaid drinking....
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<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Possibly for seasoned collectors. The TPG's could be a life saver for many of the new collectors that have entered the hobby. Once they get their feet wet probably they will think the TPG's have outlived their usefulness also.
Ken >>
That is an extremely accurate statement. >>
And I third that. Missed this thread originally, and when I read Fat's opening post just now, new collectors came to mind as who benefits the most from the tpg's. As to the rest, I'm ambivalent. >>
On the contrary, new collectors benefit THE LEAST from the TPG's not the most. It's lambs to the slaughter as new collectors now think that they need no info on what they are collecting in, that they need not learn how to grade, that they are protected from buying someone else's problem. All they need to know is that it is in plastic. At least before the TPGs when a dealer ripped a new collector it was for 10 to 20 (maybe 100) bucks; now it is for 1000's. >>
Oh yeah, from that standpoint you are certainly right. But I still think they are seeing fairly accurately graded coins, versus when I started and struggled to discern the vague terms g/f/vf/xf etc and the differentiation that came with every individual's definition of same. You're right, they still need to learn to grade.
Fatman, I think you've made a very valid, perceptive argument. I still think there are a lot more coins that have not been through their mill, but my focus is on finding them raw, and submitting some of those. The classics you speak of, however, the over $200 coins, I think you are on to something.
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
Topical with Today's Thread.
<< <i>Get Used to it---PCGS is here to Stay ! How many of us would pay large sums of $$$$ for ungraded coins ? >>
Hi.
Ed. S.
(EJS)
<< <i>In my ideal TPG company, the company would provide the following:
1. Authentication with a guarantee
2. Coin protection
3. Grade optional
4. Originality designation
5. A clear, scratch-resistent plastic holder that makes it easy to photography the coin
6. An optional photography service
7. No favors no matter how small/large the submitter >>
These from RYK are what I thought TPG`s where about all about especially with regard to #1 and #4. Lesser so to #2 and #3. With fakes of coin classics in the pre PCGS/NGC/ANACS days, it was a problem then and still is among raw coins.
<< <i>Grade inflation: creates a need to resubmit coin so the label reflects the ever changing standard >>
Maybe it also means that they see things differently sometimes. I assume that you agree with the grade given to all of the coins that you own which are slabbed. If I was to come and take your coins, crack em out and return em in flips in 6 months, could you give them all the exact same grade that they had before? If I was to exchange a few would you know which ones were changed?
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<< <i>Grade inflation: creates a need to resubmit coin so the label reflects the ever changing standard >>
Maybe it also means that they see things differently sometimes. >>
So do you believe grade inflation over the past 15 years has not occured?
<< <i>I assume that you agree with the grade given to all of the coins that you own which are slabbe. If I was to come and take your coins, crack em out and return em in flips in 6 months, could you give them all the exact same grade that they had before? If I was to exchange a few would you know which ones were changed? >>
I do not agree with with all the grades given to the coins I own. Some are over graded and some are undergraded. In fact, if you were to check out my commem 50 type registry set across the street I openly write about my differing opinions, both higher and lower. I buy the coin, not the holder.
If you were to take my coins and return them in flips six months later I am confident that I could give them the same grade what I believe today. And it would be a no brainer to pick out any that were exchanged. Of course, I don't buy ordinary coins so mine are easy to identify.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.