The principles our country were founded on are great, and our country is pretty darn good(save the bad apples)! Just imagine how great we could be if we actually adhered to our espoused principles/beliefs and actually put them to use in all of our actions(and please nobody forget the people(Our lands first inhabitants) that were sacrificed as an expense to help us achieve this. We can't change what happened, but a recognition of the truth and an acknowledgement of what happened is a minimum requirement for everyone).
In fact, for the second oldest democracy in North America(U.S. borders), we have done some good things. The Haudenosaunee beat the founding fathers to be the first democracy on current U.S. soil/territory. In fact, Ben Franklin attended some Iroqouis meeting before our revolution and came away impressed on how five seperate 'states' can band together and form ONE nation! What a great concept!
I wish I had more time to really dig into our history and the world's history, there is so much to learn! I know a scant little compared to many, but I am amazed that most people still don't know the truth about the Indians and such. Most people believe plymouth rock was the first meeting on U.S. soil between Europeans and Indians(not quite. In fact, the pilgrims were greeted by an Indian who said "welcome" in english). I didn't know the truth for many years. Then when that story is told in elementary school, it is told as a Feel Good story, but they never finish the story after the initial bliss of that settlement and of Thanksgiving. Nothing like forcing Christianity on Indians and arresting them because they worked on Sunday, or didn't have a Christian marriage, and didn't convert. Yes, these same Plymouth people did that, and of course it lead to revolt from the 'savage' Indians, then war and massacre from the superior firepower from the white settlers. Then that course of action was repeated over and over again over centuries.
You know it still amazes me? How European settlers in the 1600's called Indians savagaes and stupid barbarians, while they(the settlers) WERE BURNING WOMEN AT THE STAKES BECAUSE THEY THOUGHT THEY WERE WITCHES!! Talk about hypocracy! That two-faced attitude is so prevelant in the world, in all facets. We all know how I feel about the sports bias I always uncover.
To lighten things up, you know what is really funny right now?? I had to put a student in a time out today, and the Orioles had to put Rafael Palmeiro and Sammy Sosa in timeouts this month too!
Win, I had an epiphany about my life today. I was feeling a little stressed and angry. I dont' want to get into about what, but a small seemingly insignificant talk with somebody helped me realize a few things. Thanks MOM!
Preach on, brother! I teach fourth grade and cringe at some of the crap I routinely see and hear. Unfortunately, I can only grit my teeth and bear it, as I doubt the average parent or school board member would smile upon me ditching Scott Foresman's Regions in favor of, say, Howard Zinn for Young Readers.
Yawnie, isn't this a form of propoganda? How many schools would dare allow a teacher to teach the truth or be controversial like you say? You may get some in high school, but probably only in the more advanced classes, which leaves the masses to just believing in the 'propoganda' of the way it is portrayed during the earlier years.
How many schools put on plays of the pilgrims and Indians?? It would be a little much to talk about controversial stuff like the truth about the Indians to young kids(because those are some horrible facts), but unless you get a good cutting edge teacher in high school(I got one in high school and that is what opened my eyes to a lot of things), or are in an advanced class in high school, you are left only being taught the incomplete story, which is basically propoganda.
I bet a lot of teachers don't even know the truth on that stuff, especially elementary, as elementary teachers are already over-burdened with a curriculum that is handed down to them that has to meet state requirements and all the b.s. the lawmakers in the capital put in there.
I spent my whole childhood believing in cowboys being the good guys, and Indians just being bad people who were put there to be shot by Cowboys.
I also use to scoff at the Indian groups who protested their images used on mascots for sports team!, Nobody will ever truly unerstand why they feel that way. One can get a better understanding by learning about the truth of what happened and maybe people wouldn't scoff at them so much for not wanting to be becoming just mere mascots, as opposed to what their life was really about and how it was horribly changed by the same race of people who are making them mascots. Many people say it is for honoring them? I ask, Is making them a mascot the best way to honor them. If people feel they should be honored, then why not in a more dignified way? Why not honor them by stripping the medals of honor given to the hung-over soldiers who massacred the Indians at Wounded Knee?? Why don't the Washington Redskins put up a classy display of the 'Red' Men at their stadium, and tell the truth of their annihalation, and how they wanted to live in peace. Just tell the darn truth so people know who they are honoring and why they are being honored. Just calling a team after them doesn't do them justice.
I'm not smart or creative enough to give a proper honoring, but I am smart enough to know that making them a team mascot certainly isn't very dignifying.
It's absolutely a form of propaganda. A sort of state-sponsored, sanitized version of America. You're right that one will find a few teachers at the high school level that challenge conventional thinking, but it's very rare at the elementary level - in part because a lot of kids at that age just aren't ready for that kind of critical thinking.
I realize I can't really be some firebrand radical who assigns Chomsky for homework, but at the same time, I at least hope to lay the foundation for that kind of thinking as students mature. I mean, I had kids today who were just shocked to learn that less than 150 years ago, humans were bought and sold in their hometown. I guess they've been too busy coloring pictures of smiling pilgrims next to smiling Indians amid horns of plenty the last few years.
Anyway, sorry for the OT rant, all. I'll go back to cards now. Promise.
Can the lovefest please end now? Rather than assuming everybody's got skeletons in their closet, let's acknowledge JR as a cheater, a scammer, and a thief. He should be equated with all the other cheaters, scammers, and thieves ripping people off all over the internet.
And before anyone lashes out please understand what I'm saying - and JR if you're still reading, please believe me - I've never met him, and am not making judgment about him personally or any of that. I'm sure he's a great guy, and no doubt he feels horrible about it all, and I appreciate him facing the fire and being honest. I hope he's back on the boards soon, and doesn't let this one incident ruin it for him, because he's clearly a knowledgable and interested (and interesting) collector, important to this collector community and our industry in general. I believe that is definitely true.
But c'mon people - he ripped people off. Let's stop calling it a mistake. He put forth a conscious, completely unmistaken, effort to rip people off in a manner that we all complain about all the time, something considered a mortal sin in our business in this day and age - eBay fraud. And he didn't come clean, he got caught. And he wouldn't have come clean if he didn't get caught. Be realistic. He was a dishonest businessman, a scammer, a cheat and a thief, and he stopped being these things only because he got caught, not because of some epiphany to confess to all of us, so let's not bronze his martyr statue quite yet.
Some of you guys are worse than a police dept when it comes to protecting your own.
Anyways, again, come back soon JR. Please understand my rhetoric here, and take it with a grain of salt it deserves (I'm obviously often far more dramatic than needed). The hypocrisy just frustrates me sometimes and I can't resist. I have no doubt you've "learned a lesson" whatever that means, and personally hope you'll be back someday. The eBay thing didn't work out, but certainly you're a person who brings a lot of knowledge and experience and expertise to the business and hobby, and we're all grateful to have you. Seriously. The crime does not make the man.
Before I lose too many brain cells and moments out of my life...
Kuntry Why the more than casual interest in the life of JrDolan?
From what I can see - and I rarely speak this way - you're not good enough to be a festering boil on the ass of 48 yr. old hooker with 99 thousand miles without an oil change!
People come and go from here but if you fell off the face of the earth, I'm affraid your presence won't be missed.
<<< let's acknowledge JR as a cheater, a scammer, and a thief. >>>
You should learn the definition of words before spouting off accusations such as this. JR had a 100% feedback rating and under no definition was he a scammer or a thief. Yes he did cheat. He also refunded all the money that he cheated people out of which he was under no legal obligation to do - in my book that rectifies the situation.
PS: If you're looking to hang around with "perfect" type people in a forum, why don't you go to Tibet, become a Monk, and start a Monk forum for Monk cards.
<< <i>Some of you guys are worse than a police dept when it comes to protecting your own. >>
Dave That's a bit over the top IMO.
There's a lot more going on here and unless you have been here for a few years or have friends that have been here longer, you would see that.
This goes deep - it's not just about what a person did or didn't do - this is about people coming on the board to do nothing more than aggitate.
They bring nothing to the table, and neither enhance nor enrich anyones hobby lives.
These are "reincarnated" slugs who have been booted from this forum and have a neurotic desire to seek vengeance on some individuals here.
This is a shame since it's not about right or wrong - as you claim - there's no love fest here - it's about balance - it's about going above and beyond to hurt someone.
I think you're too new here to appreciate this situation IMO.
This thread turned into something I had no idea was going on. I hadnt logged on to it because after after reading the first couple of posts, I thought it would just turn into a "which would you rather own, a PSA9OC or PSA 7?" thread. Mike definately gets the Golden Hammer award for hitting the proverbial nail on the head. Some people live to just attack people. That is why you have to download anti-virus software every other day on your computer. People have personal vendettas against people for no reason. This isnt a Pilgrams-Indians propaganda thing. This is a more like stalkers or deranged people that just have a need to bring people down so they can feel good about themselves. I guess it gives them a "high". I believe if JR told the whole story, there is a lot more that would come out in the wash that hasnt been heard, but it seems he doesnt want to pull the same type of crap that has been pulled on him. People better look over thier shoulder when they want to start casting stones....
Oh I am definitely missing something, I will admit that. There's clearly some other underlying issues going on here. But to me, all Kuntryboy did was expose a scammer. Any past history or vengeful motives seem irrelevant to me. From my point of view, like you said, it is not just about what one person did or didn't do, but to me, it's only about what one person did or didn't do in this case, which is what I tried to express.
And I thank stevek for proving my point about protecting our own, (and also for making me laugh out loud about the monk joke). Sorry if my definitions are incorrect. When someone intentionally conspires with another person to (insert a word here that isn't scam) people out of their money on the internet through illegal or disallowed or immoral or unfair activities, I call him a scammer. And since his actions resulted in receiving more of someone else's money then he rightfully deserved, I'd call him a thief for stealing that money. Just because you forgive someone, or they make restitution, it doesn't change what they orginally did.
But again, my rhetoric is admittedly overly dramatic most of the time. Regardless, I get the point.
Anyways, I'll get the hang of it eventually, so long as you all just keep buying my cards...!
<< <i>Any past history or vengeful motives seem irrelevant to me >>
They may be irrelevant to you but not to people here who have known each other and shared thoughts and ideas on anything from ice boats to aardvarks. This isn't about "protecting" anything.
It's about justice. Once administered....should be duely noted and then we move on.
I'm not a lawyer - but you speak of breaking the law/rules. No one is dismissing what he did but there's more here - trust me.
In the world of punishment - there's "mitigating and extenuating" circumstances here - I can't go into detail but believe me John is nothing like what you may think. And, history and vengeful motives have tremendous relevance in this incidence.
I'm not trying to frivolously argue with you - but, again, in this case, you speak without full knowledge of the situation.
Moral statements made in a vacuum have very little credence outside of that privileged sanctuary IMO.
YO! I second that. I got a sweet 8 OC for a little above a 6 and it is not that far off center and the corners are tack sharp. No doubt there is strong merit in a sweet centered card versus higher value and I agree with that. I also think the effects of the OC disdain is something some of us will take advantage of and benefit from in the long run..... I follow the population report will take an OC with fewer than 50 graded in the NQ category when I can. Call me crazy..... Yater
Comments
The principles our country were founded on are great, and our country is pretty darn good(save the bad apples)! Just imagine how great we could be if we actually adhered to our espoused principles/beliefs and actually put them to use in all of our actions(and please nobody forget the people(Our lands first inhabitants) that were sacrificed as an expense to help us achieve this. We can't change what happened, but a recognition of the truth and an acknowledgement of what happened is a minimum requirement for everyone).
In fact, for the second oldest democracy in North America(U.S. borders), we have done some good things. The Haudenosaunee beat the founding fathers to be the first democracy on current U.S. soil/territory. In fact, Ben Franklin attended some Iroqouis meeting before our revolution and came away impressed on how five seperate 'states' can band together and form ONE nation! What a great concept!
I wish I had more time to really dig into our history and the world's history, there is so much to learn! I know a scant little compared to many, but I am amazed that most people still don't know the truth about the Indians and such. Most people believe plymouth rock was the first meeting on U.S. soil between Europeans and Indians(not quite. In fact, the pilgrims were greeted by an Indian who said "welcome" in english). I didn't know the truth for many years. Then when that story is told in elementary school, it is told as a Feel Good story, but they never finish the story after the initial bliss of that settlement and of Thanksgiving. Nothing like forcing Christianity on Indians and arresting them because they worked on Sunday, or didn't have a Christian marriage, and didn't convert. Yes, these same Plymouth people did that, and of course it lead to revolt from the 'savage' Indians, then war and massacre from the superior firepower from the white settlers. Then that course of action was repeated over and over again over centuries.
You know it still amazes me? How European settlers in the 1600's called Indians savagaes and stupid barbarians, while they(the settlers) WERE BURNING WOMEN AT THE STAKES BECAUSE THEY THOUGHT THEY WERE WITCHES!! Talk about hypocracy! That two-faced attitude is so prevelant in the world, in all facets. We all know how I feel about the sports bias I always uncover.
To lighten things up, you know what is really funny right now?? I had to put a student in a time out today, and the Orioles had to put Rafael Palmeiro and Sammy Sosa in timeouts this month too!
Win, I had an epiphany about my life today. I was feeling a little stressed and angry. I dont' want to get into about what, but a small seemingly insignificant talk with somebody helped me realize a few things. Thanks MOM!
How many schools put on plays of the pilgrims and Indians?? It would be a little much to talk about controversial stuff like the truth about the Indians to young kids(because those are some horrible facts), but unless you get a good cutting edge teacher in high school(I got one in high school and that is what opened my eyes to a lot of things), or are in an advanced class in high school, you are left only being taught the incomplete story, which is basically propoganda.
I bet a lot of teachers don't even know the truth on that stuff, especially elementary, as elementary teachers are already over-burdened with a curriculum that is handed down to them that has to meet state requirements and all the b.s. the lawmakers in the capital put in there.
I spent my whole childhood believing in cowboys being the good guys, and Indians just being bad people who were put there to be shot by Cowboys.
I also use to scoff at the Indian groups who protested their images used on mascots for sports team!, Nobody will ever truly unerstand why they feel that way. One can get a better understanding by learning about the truth of what happened and maybe people wouldn't scoff at them so much for not wanting to be becoming just mere mascots, as opposed to what their life was really about and how it was horribly changed by the same race of people who are making them mascots. Many people say it is for honoring them? I ask, Is making them a mascot the best way to honor them. If people feel they should be honored, then why not in a more dignified way? Why not honor them by stripping the medals of honor given to the hung-over soldiers who massacred the Indians at Wounded Knee?? Why don't the Washington Redskins put up a classy display of the 'Red' Men at their stadium, and tell the truth of their annihalation, and how they wanted to live in peace. Just tell the darn truth so people know who they are honoring and why they are being honored. Just calling a team after them doesn't do them justice.
I'm not smart or creative enough to give a proper honoring, but I am smart enough to know that making them a team mascot certainly isn't very dignifying.
I realize I can't really be some firebrand radical who assigns Chomsky for homework, but at the same time, I at least hope to lay the foundation for that kind of thinking as students mature. I mean, I had kids today who were just shocked to learn that less than 150 years ago, humans were bought and sold in their hometown. I guess they've been too busy coloring pictures of smiling pilgrims next to smiling Indians amid horns of plenty the last few years.
Anyway, sorry for the OT rant, all. I'll go back to cards now. Promise.
btw, i shilled your rizzuto purchase. JK!!!
This is a baseball card forum. Please try to limit your conversations to the topic at hand, for everyone's sake.
If you'd like to debate politics and US History in a more appropriate forum, send me the link. I'll check my brain at the door and we can start even.
Thanks.
Edited to add the obligatory Wink emotion, so that everyone knows I AM JUST JOKING...
And before anyone lashes out please understand what I'm saying - and JR if you're still reading, please believe me - I've never met him, and am not making judgment about him personally or any of that. I'm sure he's a great guy, and no doubt he feels horrible about it all, and I appreciate him facing the fire and being honest. I hope he's back on the boards soon, and doesn't let this one incident ruin it for him, because he's clearly a knowledgable and interested (and interesting) collector, important to this collector community and our industry in general. I believe that is definitely true.
But c'mon people - he ripped people off. Let's stop calling it a mistake. He put forth a conscious, completely unmistaken, effort to rip people off in a manner that we all complain about all the time, something considered a mortal sin in our business in this day and age - eBay fraud. And he didn't come clean, he got caught. And he wouldn't have come clean if he didn't get caught. Be realistic. He was a dishonest businessman, a scammer, a cheat and a thief, and he stopped being these things only because he got caught, not because of some epiphany to confess to all of us, so let's not bronze his martyr statue quite yet.
Some of you guys are worse than a police dept when it comes to protecting your own.
Anyways, again, come back soon JR. Please understand my rhetoric here, and take it with a grain of salt it deserves (I'm obviously often far more dramatic than needed). The hypocrisy just frustrates me sometimes and I can't resist. I have no doubt you've "learned a lesson" whatever that means, and personally hope you'll be back someday. The eBay thing didn't work out, but certainly you're a person who brings a lot of knowledge and experience and expertise to the business and hobby, and we're all grateful to have you. Seriously. The crime does not make the man.
Best of luck,
Dave
Before I lose too many brain cells and moments out of my life...
Kuntry
Why the more than casual interest in the life of JrDolan?
From what I can see - and I rarely speak this way - you're not good enough to be a festering boil on the ass of 48 yr. old hooker with 99 thousand miles without an oil change!
People come and go from here but if you fell off the face of the earth, I'm affraid your presence won't be missed.
Get a life!
Stone
You should learn the definition of words before spouting off accusations such as this. JR had a 100% feedback rating and under no definition was he a scammer or a thief. Yes he did cheat. He also refunded all the money that he cheated people out of which he was under no legal obligation to do - in my book that rectifies the situation.
PS: If you're looking to hang around with "perfect" type people in a forum, why don't you go to Tibet, become a Monk, and start a Monk forum for Monk cards.
<< <i>Some of you guys are worse than a police dept when it comes to protecting your own. >>
Dave
That's a bit over the top IMO.
There's a lot more going on here and unless you have been here for a few years or have friends that have been here longer, you would see that.
This goes deep - it's not just about what a person did or didn't do - this is about people coming on the board to do nothing more than aggitate.
They bring nothing to the table, and neither enhance nor enrich anyones hobby lives.
These are "reincarnated" slugs who have been booted from this forum and have a neurotic desire to seek vengeance on some individuals here.
This is a shame since it's not about right or wrong - as you claim - there's no love fest here - it's about balance - it's about going above and beyond to hurt someone.
I think you're too new here to appreciate this situation IMO.
mike
Mike definately gets the Golden Hammer award for hitting the proverbial nail on the head.
Some people live to just attack people. That is why you have to download anti-virus software every other day on your computer.
People have personal vendettas against people for no reason. This isnt a Pilgrams-Indians propaganda thing. This is a more like stalkers or deranged people that just have a need to bring people down so they can feel good about themselves. I guess it gives them a "high".
I believe if JR told the whole story, there is a lot more that would come out in the wash that hasnt been heard, but it seems he doesnt want to pull the same type of crap that has been pulled on him. People better look over thier shoulder when they want to start casting stones....
i got indian and "cowboy" roots..
And I thank stevek for proving my point about protecting our own, (and also for making me laugh out loud about the monk joke). Sorry if my definitions are incorrect. When someone intentionally conspires with another person to (insert a word here that isn't scam) people out of their money on the internet through illegal or disallowed or immoral or unfair activities, I call him a scammer. And since his actions resulted in receiving more of someone else's money then he rightfully deserved, I'd call him a thief for stealing that money. Just because you forgive someone, or they make restitution, it doesn't change what they orginally did.
But again, my rhetoric is admittedly overly dramatic most of the time. Regardless, I get the point.
Anyways, I'll get the hang of it eventually, so long as you all just keep buying my cards...!
No...you're not quite getting the point yet Monk Dave. There's a loincloth in Tibet waiting for you.
<< <i>Any past history or vengeful motives seem irrelevant to me >>
They may be irrelevant to you but not to people here who have known each other and shared thoughts and ideas on anything from ice boats to aardvarks. This isn't about "protecting" anything.
It's about justice. Once administered....should be duely noted and then we move on.
I'm not a lawyer - but you speak of breaking the law/rules. No one is dismissing what he did but there's more here - trust me.
In the world of punishment - there's "mitigating and extenuating" circumstances here - I can't go into detail but believe me John is nothing like what you may think. And, history and vengeful motives have tremendous relevance in this incidence.
I'm not trying to frivolously argue with you - but, again, in this case, you speak without full knowledge of the situation.
Moral statements made in a vacuum have very little credence outside of that privileged sanctuary IMO.
mike
I may be a newbie, but apparently my flare for dramatic rhetoric is catching on!
My only logical conclusion is jr slept with kuntryboy's wife. Repeatedly.
I must go pray now.
<< <i>My only logical conclusion is jr slept with kuntryboy's wife. Repeatedly. >>
Now that may be true!
<< <i>
My only logical conclusion is jr slept with kuntryboy's wife. Repeatedly.
>>
Which wouldn't have been so bad but when he failed to divulge the secret "wife access code", he had to pay!